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Tasmania

DuD_Delist

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Sep 30, 2014
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Love to see a Tassie side but as the months go on it seems the further away it is.
I think Carro is right.
If it doesn't happen this time it never will.
 

Redford

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what's the population of Geelong, less than 300k, the population of Tassie is more than 500k.
Not everyone living in Geelong barrack for the pussie, same as everyone in Tassie won't barrack for a Tassie team.

Using the population argument doesn't really stack.

Which industries in Geelong are sponsors of them, not many, Ford no longer have much of a presence there.

Tassie has more industry in general than cat land.

Tassie should have their own team.
Bad comparison TT.

Geelong has 250,000 and a huge fan base 45-60 minutes up the 4 lane highway in Melbourne. Geelong is part of Victoria with immensely more corporate support to draw upon. You could even say they can draw on
more government support. The VIC government has already tipped in $140m for Kardinia Park. What’s the Tasmanian government tipping in for a ground ?

Tasmania has 500,000 - 230,000 of them live in Hobart and surrounds. The rest are spread around the state like Brown’s cows. Launceston is 90 minutes away in a car on a *smile* road and Burnie and Devonport are over 3 and a half hours away. Who is travelling that far, in a car, in the middle of Winter to support a team that’s gonna struggle early doors ? Not many. Crowd numbers will drop off badly after the initial excitement.

Geographical dispersement is a MASSIVE issue in Tasmania.
 
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tigersnake

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I don't buy the economic arguments, you can talk them down or up, it will be economically sustainable. It might wax and wane a bit like all clubs and all markets, but it will have flow-on effects outside the internal club bottom line just like GWS and GC, not in the same ways, but it will. 5 million people in Melbourne and 10 clubs. half a million people in Tassie and 1 club. Pretty easy maths. Can anyone think of any example ever in the history of Australian sport when a stadium didn't get built if it was required? *smile* they even get built when they aren't required, (Geelong and Cowboys). When you look at context, national comp, aussie rules state, Tassie being on the up, AFL neglecting Tassie which is having real impacts that need fixing, its a no brainer.

The flies in the ointment IMO is one club needs to go for fixture and national balance, and the talent pool is spread too thin now. Its wrong in my view that Tassie effectively pay for the sins of the past and for the propping up of possible new markets, wrong, but that might stall it for a few more years.
 
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tigersnake

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Bad comparison TT.

Geelong has 250,000 and a huge fan base 45-60 minutes up the 4 lane highway in Melbourne. Geelong is part of Victoria with immensely more corporate support to draw upon.

Tasmania has 500,000 - 230,000 of them live in Hobart and surrounds. The rest are spread around the state like Brown’s cows. Launceston is 90 minutes away in a car on a *smile* road and Burnie and Devonport are over 3 and a half hours away.

Geographical dispersement is a MASSIVE issue in Tasmania.
You can make the same water muddying arguments about Melbourne/ Vic micro- demographics all day long.
 

Redford

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You can make the same water muddying arguments about Melbourne/ Vic micro- demographics all day long.
Unless you’ve lived there, played football there, and have business interests there as well, mainlanders simply have no idea about the geographical disparancy and the issues it causes for creating something like a Tasmanian team. They couldn’t create a statewide league for that large fact - and I know coz I played in it.
 
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jimbob

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what's the population of Geelong, less than 300k, the population of Tassie is more than 500k.
Not everyone living in Geelong barrack for the pussie, same as everyone in Tassie won't barrack for a Tassie team.

Using the population argument doesn't really stack.

Which industries in Geelong are sponsors of them, not many, Ford no longer have much of a presence there.

Tassie has more industry in general than cat land.

Tassie should have their own team.
Agree TT. Tassie deserve a side. They will have the whole State behind them. I understand, to a point, the argument for the expansion clubs. GWS particularly. Not so much Gold Coast, though it’s good to see them more competitive on field at the moment and good to see Brando and Mabs in particular going well. The AFL was so desperate to get GC in, they had ATCO huts as headquarters etc for some time. Facilities were pathetic. It is unfair to demand a brand new stadium be built for Tassie and stinks of double standards. Gold Coast apart from being a nice place to be was an odd choice for mine. It’s full of retirees and holiday makers. Where is the growth there? Their basketball team folded due to lack of support and the NRL side has been a joke almost since inception. Yet the AFL has tipped in nearly $200m to support GC to this stage. GWS is a different situation and demographically the west of Sydney is growing fast.

So, if (say) I was right and GC isn’t a successful “growth” market, it is hypocritical to deny Tassie a side, particularly when the Gov is going to underwrite a handy chunk of cash to help support and get the Club established. It’s no colder in Tassie than it is in Ballarat but we will play AFL games there.

The other issue is that TAS football hasn’t had much support from the AFL for grassroots footy (from what I understand) for a while. The standard of footy has dropped a bit and kids are starting to drift away from the sport for alternatives. I think it is equally important to support an AFL code State and stop it going backwards as much as growing to new areas. Or is it just ok to use it for the rest of the Country to take the Richo’s and Riewoldt’s away to provide quality footballers for the rest of the Country.

In business it is important to retain customers as well as grow. Not pick up a new customer and lose an old loyal customer at the same time.

I hope they get a side. My biggest negative is how you then handle a fair draw with 19 sides. Hard enough with 18 clubs.
 
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tigersnake

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Unless you’ve lived there, played football there, and have business interests there as well, mainlanders simply have no idea about the geographical disparancy and the issues it causes for creating something like a Tasmanian team. They couldn’t create a statewide league for that large fact - and I know coz I played in it.
I don't doubt your local knowledge, and I don't doubt there are challenges, but the big show is a completely different beast.
 

Redford

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I don't buy the economic arguments, you can talk them down or up, it will be economically sustainable. It might wax and wane a bit like all clubs and all markets, but it will have flow-on effects outside the internal club bottom line just like GWS and GC, not in the same ways, but it will. 5 million people in Melbourne and 10 clubs. half a million people in Tassie and 1 club. Pretty easy maths. Can anyone think of any example ever in the history of Australian sport when a stadium didn't get built if it was required? *smile* they even get built when they aren't required, (Geelong and Cowboys). When you look at context, national comp, aussie rules state, Tassie being on the up, AFL neglecting Tassie which is having real impacts that need fixing, its a no brainer.

The flies in the ointment IMO is one club needs to go for fixture and national balance, and the talent pool is spread too thin now. Its wrong in my view that Tassie effectively pay for the sins of the past and for the propping up of possible new markets, wrong, but that might stall it for a few more years.
That’s a really naive mainlanders perspective. You don’t have 500,000. The reality is you have 230,000. You can say “oh we’ll also play games in Launceston and grow the base in the north that way” but that completely destroys the home ground advantage for the club and weakens the southern base. Something GWS are grappling with re Manuka and Canberra.

And who the hell at the club - players and staff - wants to be travelling from Hobart to Launceston every few weeks ? Calling bs on that proposal.

On the stadium front - we’ll let’s hear it from the state government. Put up the money, be it $150m to re vamp something (which is what it cost GC and GWS) or the $1b for a state of the art stadium coz right now all you are producing Snakes Alive are words. Stump up. Put it on the table. Right now.
 

tigersnake

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That’s a really naive mainlanders perspective. You don’t have 500,000. The reality is you have 230,000. You can say “oh we’ll also play games in Launceston and grow the base in the north that way” but that completely destroys the home ground advantage for the club and weakens the southern base. Something GWS are grappling with re Manuka and Canberra.

And who the hell at the club - players and staff - wants to be travelling from Hobart to Launceston every few weeks ? Calling bs on that proposal.

On the stadium front - we’ll let’s hear it from the state government. Put up the money, be it $150m to re vamp something (which is what it cost GC and GWS) or the $1b for a state of the art stadium coz right now all you are producing Snakes Alive are words. Stump up. Put it on the table. Right now.
What is the status on the stadium $$ front?

FWIW Metricon is a great stadium. Good atmosphere and great view. The bummer is getting there, it was great when I went to a VFL game there recently, drove to the gate, but stinks when a Tigers game is on, park and shuttle bus shitshow, but all that is irrelevant for tassie of course. I'm amazed if they built that for $150m.
 
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Redford

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Agree TT. Tassie deserve a side. They will have the whole State behind them. I understand, to a point, the argument for the expansion clubs. GWS particularly. Not so much Gold Coast, though it’s good to see them more competitive on field at the moment and good to see Brando and Mabs in particular going well. The AFL was so desperate to get GC in, they had ATCO huts as headquarters etc for some time. Facilities were pathetic. It is unfair to demand a brand new stadium be built for Tassie and stinks of double standards. Gold Coast apart from being a nice place to be was an odd choice for mine. It’s full of retirees and holiday makers. Where is the growth there? Their basketball team folded due to lack of support and the NRL side has been a joke almost since inception. Yet the AFL has tipped in nearly $200m to support GC to this stage. GWS is a different situation and demographically the west of Sydney is growing fast.

So, if (say) I was right and GC isn’t a successful “growth” market, it is hypocritical to deny Tassie a side, particularly when the Gov is going to underwrite a handy chunk of cash to help support and get the Club established. It’s no colder in Tassie than it is in Ballarat but we will play AFL games there.

The other issue is that TAS football hasn’t had much support from the AFL for grassroots footy (from what I understand) for a while. The standard of footy has dropped a bit and kids are starting to drift away from the sport for alternatives. I think it is equally important to support an AFL code State and stop it going backwards as much as growing to new areas. Or is it just ok to use it for the rest of the Country to take the Richo’s and Riewoldt’s away to provide quality footballers for the rest of the Country.

In business it is important to retain customers as well as grow. Not pick up a new customer and lose an old loyal customer at the same time.

I hope they get a side. My biggest negative is how you then handle a fair draw with 19 sides. Hard enough with 18 clubs.
They’ve (the AFL) never lost a customer Jim. The tv ratings in TAS haven’t changed in years. And won’t if there’s no team there.

That’s why, from a non emotional, non romantic perspective it’s a big business risk for the AFL to tip hundreds of millions into Tasmania.
 

Redford

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What is the status on the stadium $$ front?
Absolute crickets. The state government has said it’ll spend $50m on state of the art training facilities - most likely over a few years ….Queenborough has been mentioned- but otherwise nothing that I can see in terms of funding a home stadium.

Gutwein came out with this pie in the sky idea about an enclosed stadium at Macquarie Point which is gonna cost the best part of $1b - obviously coz the AFL had been in his ear about stadium requirements - but nobody knows how or who is gonna fund that.

Wouldn’t surprise me if that’s one reason why Gutwein resigned ie writing cheques on behalf of Tasmania that he knows Tasmania can’t cash.

And even then, Northern politicians have said they won’t support funding of a southern stadium. So there you go….the north v south geographical combativeness and jealousy has already started and they don’t even have a team yet !
 

jimbob

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They’ve (the AFL) never lost a customer Jim. The tv ratings in TAS haven’t changed in years. And won’t if there’s no team there.

That’s why, from a non emotional, non romantic perspective it’s a big business risk for the AFL to tip hundreds of millions into Tasmania.
Nah. Not talking about TV. Talking about losing the kids to the game. I don’t think the risk is any bigger than the $398m they have shelled out to support GWS & GC already without having the NSW & Qland governments like the Tas government helping to underwrite the costs for a fair period of time. Not suggesting there is no risk though. But they have taken bigger punts in the past.

Mind you, I can just see if Tassie get a team, Richo and Jack will start fathering boys left, right and centre and as part of the deal Tas will get the opportunity to draft them too.
 

Redford

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Nah. Not talking about TV. Talking about losing the kids to the game. I don’t think the risk is any bigger than the $398m they have shelled out to support GWS & GC already without having the NSW & Qland governments like the Tas government helping to underwrite the costs for a fair period of time. Not suggesting there is no risk though. But they have taken bigger punts in the past.

Mind you, I can just see if Tassie get a team, Richo and Jack will start fathering boys left, right and centre and as part of the deal Tas will get the opportunity to draft them too.
Unfortunately Jim, as was discussed on another thread, the AFL doesn’t seem to care too much about junior football in Tas and certainly doesn’t where community footy around the nation is concerned. It’s all about the NFL model of having tv eyes and sustainable clubs in the AFL for them.

In respect of the latter, I’ll ask again: how many Norf’s, Dogs, GC’s, GWS’s, Tasmania’s etc can it prop up especially in the Tas case where they’ve already got those eyes ? Tas isnt a growth opportunity for the AFL Jim.
 

tora

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Dec 10, 2021
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What is the status on the stadium $$ front?

FWIW Metricon is a great stadium. Good atmosphere and great view. The bummer is getting there, it was great when I went to a VFL game there recently, drove to the gate, but stinks when a Tigers game is on, park and shuttle bus shitshow, but all that is irrelevant for tassie of course. I'm amazed if they built that for $150m.
It is a good stadium. Free or $10 parking and walk 1km to the stadium gate through the lovely redeveloped area. I walked further after MCG games. I think the QLD govt paid for a lot of the renovation before COMM Games. I don't know what Hobart's stadiums are like.
But get MONA dark mofo involved...Nick Cave or Blixa Bargeld to write the club song; have the players run through fire when the team comes onto the ground. The Map of Tassies'll be everyones second team.
The Sun's lifesaver colours and song make me want to puke. Obviously I ain't the demographic.
 
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spook

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I don't pretend to know the financials, but if they stack up, the most obvious, logical solution is for the AFL to help Norf transition with dignity to the VFL, and redirect all the money it throws down that toilet into Tassie. North Melbourne is more a block than a suburb, it is a joke it is carried in a national competition. Only tradition and the AFL's unwillingness to play bad guy plug-puller is keeping it in the league. St Failda too for that matter. 125 years, one flag, 27 spoons, can't keep the lights on by itself.

230,000 people in Hobart and 500k in Tassie? Surely they could convert that into 30-50,000 members?
 
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tigersnake

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Absolute crickets. The state government has said it’ll spend $50m on state of the art training facilities - most likely over a few years ….Queenborough has been mentioned- but otherwise nothing that I can see in terms of funding a home stadium.

Gutwein came out with this pie in the sky idea about an enclosed stadium at Macquarie Point which is gonna cost the best part of $1b - obviously coz the AFL had been in his ear about stadium requirements - but nobody knows how or who is gonna fund that.

Wouldn’t surprise me if that’s one reason why Gutwein resigned ie writing cheques on behalf of Tasmania that he knows Tasmania can’t cash.

It is a good stadium. Free or $10 parking and walk 1km to the stadium gate through the lovely redeveloped area. I walked further after MCG games. I think the QLD govt paid for a lot of the renovation before COMM Games. I don't know what Hobart's stadiums are like.
But get MONA dark mofo involved...Nick Cave or Blixa Bargeld to write the club song; have the players run through fire when the team comes onto the ground. The Map of Tassies'll be everyones second team.
The Sun's lifesaver colours and song make me want to puke. Obviously I ain't the demographic.
a billion is dumb.

I looked it up, Carrara cost $145m in 2012 money, spot on Redford, so say $200 today. 25k capacity. That is impressive. Based on that, you could build a good stadium for 30-35k for $300-350, which is doable. The fact AFL is throwing out $750m figures is in keeping with them dragging the chain.
 
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jimbob

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Unfortunately Jim, as was discussed on another thread, the AFL doesn’t seem to care too much about junior football in Tas and certainly doesn’t where community footy around the nation is concerned. It’s all about the NFL model of having tv eyes and sustainable clubs in the AFL for them.

In respect of the latter, I’ll ask again: how many Norf’s, Dogs, GC’s, GWS’s, Tasmania’s etc can it prop up especially in the Tas case where they’ve already got those eyes ? Tas isnt a growth opportunity for the AFL Jim.
Opinion only of course but I am sticking with the not losing the kids to the game in TAS and by extension potentially losing Tassie as an AFL state over time and what it has brought to the big stage over decades. You’re right about the overall attitude to junior football Auswide. The only pathway in VIC for example that they want is TAC. Not all families can afford the time an expense of ferrying kids to the “‘pathway” if there are distances involved.

I am really disappointed with the AFL attitude to community and Country footy. Our execs jet off to the States to look at their model which I have no time for.

So…in the good old US of A, young Johnny is good as a junior athlete. He gets a spot in the High School side. Good boy Johnny. Other kids who don’t make the high school side never play again. They become spectators.

Young Johnny is good enough that he stands out in High School Football and gains a scholarship and makes the College team. Really good boy Johnny. His High School teammates who do not make the College team no longer play again and become spectators.

Young Johnny (who is not quite as young now) actually gets drafted to an NFL side. Johnny you bloody star!! His College teammates who are not drafted do not play again and become spectators.

What a crappy and narrow minded system. Shuts out all late developers. Essentially you have to be big and strong and fast at a young age or you never get a sniff. No Caleb Daniel, No Kayne Lambert, Jayden Short, Liam Baker, probably no player like a Dean Cox who was a late rookie pick, as if you are not drafted first time in the States you are stuffed.

Not all good things/models come from America.
 
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Redford

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a billion is dumb.

I looked it up, Carrara cost $145m in 2012 money, spot on Redford, so say $200 today. 25k capacity. That is impressive. Based on that, you could build a good stadium for 30-35k for $300-350, which is doable. The fact AFL is throwing out $750m figures is in keeping with them dragging the chain.
Carrara and the Showgrounds were re developments of existing infrastructure and hence why just the $150m.

The AFL didn’t come up with the $750m that was the state government’s number ! And most likely to be $1b when you get the traditional blow outs. (Optus Stadium was budgeted for about $1.4 billion and blew out to $1.8 billion plus.)

Whether a $150m re development cuts it for Bellerive - the only option - I don’t know. A lot of people hate going there for footy. No parking, lack of supporting business around it ie pubs, restaurants etc, freezing cold and wind swept in Winter sitting on the Derwent River. Nice and pretty, quaint, for a game of cricket in Summer, but for 25,000 in Winter, dunno. It’s a bit of tarted up suburban ground for AFL footy at the moment.

And even then, as I’ve said, the state government hasn’t committed to anything on a re development or new stadium front. Nothing.

And the north are already bitching about any spend on a stadium in Hobart anyway - absolute proof of the geo political problems I mentioned and to which most mainlanders are completely oblivious to.
 

Redford

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Dec 18, 2002
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Opinion only of course but I am sticking with the not losing the kids to the game in TAS and by extension potentially losing Tassie as an AFL state over time and what it has brought to the big stage over decades. You’re right about the overall attitude to junior football Auswide. The only pathway in VIC for example that they want is TAC. Not all families can afford the time an expense of ferrying kids to the “‘pathway” if there are distances involved.

I am really disappointed with the AFL attitude to community and Country footy. Our execs jet off to the States to look at their model which I have no time for.

So…in the good old US of A, young Johnny is good as a junior athlete. He gets a spot in the High School side. Good boy Johnny. Other kids who don’t make the high school side never play again. They become spectators.

Young Johnny is good enough that he stands out in High School Football and gains a scholarship and makes the College team. Really good boy Johnny. His High School teammates who do not make the College team no longer play again and become spectators.

Young Johnny (who is not quite as young now) actually gets drafted to an NFL side. Johnny you bloody star!! His College teammates who are not drafted do not play again and become spectators.

What a crappy and narrow minded system. Shuts out all late developers. Essentially you have to be big and strong and fast at a young age or you never get a sniff. No Caleb Daniel, No Kayne Lambert, Jayden Short, Liam Baker, probably no player like a Dean Cox who was a late rookie pick, as if you are not drafted first time in the States you are stuffed.

Not all good things/models come from America.
The AFL is a business now Jim. There’s your problem/s right there. It’s gone from being a nurturative enterprise to a ruthless corporate one.