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There is no such thing as home ground advantage.
- Thread starter Dyer'ere
- Start date
That's my take on it, tora. And the take of any coach who should not be summararily dismissed.
If Hocking plants a tree at CHF other sides can practise against tree ground advantage and eventually nullify it.
This is a big deal.
Why does Hardwick's Richmond win on the road? Because Hardwick disbelieves the Homeground advantage/ Away ground disadvantage myths and coaches accordingly. He tells the truth with his actions. He does not have a negative mindset about HGA or AGD and his players follow his lead. And win.
*Why then did Hardwick's Richmond struggle at Marvel?* Have you heard Hardwick speak of Marvel? Made the odd slip there in public about his negative mindset? Did he point blank call it a *smile* hole? I think he did. Did he literally say "We hate the joint." Pretty much. So to the extent that Hardwick's Richmond struggled at the Dump I'd put it down to that. Negative mindset.
Because I believe the HGA/AGD myths amount to a kind of nocebo.
When you read the outrageous OP - There is no such thing as home ground advantage - did you consider that it might be 100% true?
If one can't doubt a belief it is not rationally held.
If I raise the topic of no HGA in public it quickly emerges that people can't entertain that Geelong's home ground is not a huge advantage. That ground is even more magical than the other grounds that are charmed with HGA.
Let's have a look at the games there in 2023. One at a time.
If one can't doubt a belief it is not rationally held.
If I raise the topic of no HGA in public it quickly emerges that people can't entertain that Geelong's home ground is not a huge advantage. That ground is even more magical than the other grounds that are charmed with HGA.
Let's have a look at the games there in 2023. One at a time.
It's called Moorabool st. If the ground had a proper wing down the blue side the fans would be sitting in the bloody traffic. Which is maybe not such a bad idea for Moggies fans.
Stupid setting and overall design of the ground considering the amount of park land and open space behind the stadium on the red side. Could easily have built it a few metres further away from the road.
2023 TOYOTA AFL PREMIERSHIP
Geelong Cats v Sydney Swans
Round 6 • Saturday 22 April 2023 •
GEELONG 6.3 11.3 18.5 20.10 (130)
SYDNEY 2.0 5.4 5.5 5.7 (37)
This was a massacre. The first half is easily understood. The Sydney players did not get off the bus. The second half equally. They went home.
FWIW I don't think the result was aberrant. But I think the margin was. Geelong IMO win this game on form. The side they fielded was absolutely full strength and coming off a premiership. Sydney for most of 2022 were without Callum Mills. He had achilles tendonitis. And so it continued in 2023. He played CHB in this game because he couldn't walk.
A Sydney side without a sound Mills is not much good. And chanceless anywhere against a sound Geelong.
On the face of it I think this game favours the HGA/AGD myth. In respect of margin.
As a disbeliever I might say that Longmire is to blame for the blowout because his side stayed on the bus then went home at half time. I think that you just get aberrant margins sometimes. (Particularly in R1-6 - The Phoney Season.) And in this instance the winner was always going to win.
NB in this game the beaten side is one we might believe suited to a narrow ground. Structured deliberately to play tight inside football on their smallish home ground. To be fair without a sound and fit Mills Sydney is not suited to many grounds. I don't think it's a factor here. Geelong is a quick side these days anyway. When they are sound and fit.
I repeat though that on the face of it Geelong benefitted from a HGA/AGD on the day. For margin. Sydney scored three behinds in the second half and clearly went home.
Geelong Cats v Sydney Swans
Round 6 • Saturday 22 April 2023 •
GEELONG 6.3 11.3 18.5 20.10 (130)
SYDNEY 2.0 5.4 5.5 5.7 (37)
This was a massacre. The first half is easily understood. The Sydney players did not get off the bus. The second half equally. They went home.
FWIW I don't think the result was aberrant. But I think the margin was. Geelong IMO win this game on form. The side they fielded was absolutely full strength and coming off a premiership. Sydney for most of 2022 were without Callum Mills. He had achilles tendonitis. And so it continued in 2023. He played CHB in this game because he couldn't walk.
A Sydney side without a sound Mills is not much good. And chanceless anywhere against a sound Geelong.
On the face of it I think this game favours the HGA/AGD myth. In respect of margin.
As a disbeliever I might say that Longmire is to blame for the blowout because his side stayed on the bus then went home at half time. I think that you just get aberrant margins sometimes. (Particularly in R1-6 - The Phoney Season.) And in this instance the winner was always going to win.
NB in this game the beaten side is one we might believe suited to a narrow ground. Structured deliberately to play tight inside football on their smallish home ground. To be fair without a sound and fit Mills Sydney is not suited to many grounds. I don't think it's a factor here. Geelong is a quick side these days anyway. When they are sound and fit.
I repeat though that on the face of it Geelong benefitted from a HGA/AGD on the day. For margin. Sydney scored three behinds in the second half and clearly went home.
Round Nought 2024
Any surprises here? Games went to form, didn't they? The better side on the day won.
Carlton, on the road, came back from the dead to beat the Bears. The Bears favoured in markets.
I think Sydney are up and about and that Toorak were beaten by the better side on the day. There might be some who think that Sydney won by virtue of HGA/AGD. Fair enough. The question is does HGA/AGD only apply sometimes? When and why?
I thought the games went to form but many may think HGA/AGD applied.
Any surprises here? Games went to form, didn't they? The better side on the day won.
Carlton, on the road, came back from the dead to beat the Bears. The Bears favoured in markets.
I think Sydney are up and about and that Toorak were beaten by the better side on the day. There might be some who think that Sydney won by virtue of HGA/AGD. Fair enough. The question is does HGA/AGD only apply sometimes? When and why?
I thought the games went to form but many may think HGA/AGD applied.
That hadn't occurred to me, TF.
It could be argued that GWS beat Collingwood because HGA. Likewise Sydders and GCS won. And Carlton beat Brisbane morally by ten goals.
My take is that the premier is never up for R1 (whatever name the deluded AFilthL gives it), that Sydney is always up early in the season and with Gawn off and Oliver fat it was a likely win. And that some RFC players have not bought in, and many are no good anyway. And that each of those games was informative and the better team won. I just base that on watching the games and looking at their numbers.
But yeah. I guess people are going to say it was HGA. It's a simpler explanation.
I contend the opposite because I think the HGA myth breaks down under scrutiny. I'll give it some more.
The AholeFL
200,000 fans who would usually go had to watch on TV, TF. Ratings!
On the face of it Richmond had R0 off. And that could simply be attributed to Away Ground Disadvantage.
The players didn't turn up for an hour. Very unusual phenomenon. (Players regularly don't turn up for the first 45 minutes. See Bris v Carl R0.) But to not turn up for an hour is very, very rare.
First to not turning up for the first 45 minutes. Happens a few times a year in the AFL. If you're at the game you can see the formations of the losing side unable to keep up. You can see that they are slow and can't run. About half way through the second quarter you will see with your eyes the losing side start to get there. Start to run. You can see it. The formations keeping up and even overtaking. You see the formerly lead-legged side look at last fresh and explosive. I call this CP45 Effect. And Bris v Carl R0 looks like that to me.
Clubs, fitness people will have existing nomenclature for CP45 because they are all over it. To this layman I guess it's a loading issue. And can be planned. (IKR?)
In R0 GCS v Richmond CP45 effect may have been a factor. I think it probably was. Time will tell. But the players didn't run for 60 minutes. I can't remember the last time I saw that. 45 yes, 60 no.
And this leads us into another effect I've noted previously on PRE.
Axiom #3 of football - There is no such thing as a complacent footballer, only a complacent coach.
RFC rested Lynch, Martin and Nankervis for a ROAD GAME. Clubs do that all the time. In so doing RFC flew in the face of Axiom #3. RFC demonstrated to the players who it didn't rest that RFC was not serious about a road game. Because they are so hard to win.
Players know as well as anybody Axiom #1 of life- All words are lies; all actions are true. Players heard the words of the coaches. *smile*. And saw the true actions of the club in resting those players.
RFC players not only didn't run for 45 minutes. They didn't run at all for 60 minutes. There looked a clear lack of buy in from Taranto, Hooper and... Shai to name a few. We had a few Trojans out there but there was a classic road game absence.
RFC demonstrated that it believed the myth by resting stars for a road game. The players bought into the myth and gave themselves an hour of company time off. We all saw that.
Two things. Clubs rest players all the time for road games. (Self fulfilling prophecy much?) And despite the risks of resting them RFC did the rational thing. Throughout the season clubs prioritise some games ahead of others.
As at the end of R0 we begin to see that there are much better explanations than HGA myth for losses on the road.
The players didn't turn up for an hour. Very unusual phenomenon. (Players regularly don't turn up for the first 45 minutes. See Bris v Carl R0.) But to not turn up for an hour is very, very rare.
First to not turning up for the first 45 minutes. Happens a few times a year in the AFL. If you're at the game you can see the formations of the losing side unable to keep up. You can see that they are slow and can't run. About half way through the second quarter you will see with your eyes the losing side start to get there. Start to run. You can see it. The formations keeping up and even overtaking. You see the formerly lead-legged side look at last fresh and explosive. I call this CP45 Effect. And Bris v Carl R0 looks like that to me.
Clubs, fitness people will have existing nomenclature for CP45 because they are all over it. To this layman I guess it's a loading issue. And can be planned. (IKR?)
In R0 GCS v Richmond CP45 effect may have been a factor. I think it probably was. Time will tell. But the players didn't run for 60 minutes. I can't remember the last time I saw that. 45 yes, 60 no.
And this leads us into another effect I've noted previously on PRE.
Axiom #3 of football - There is no such thing as a complacent footballer, only a complacent coach.
RFC rested Lynch, Martin and Nankervis for a ROAD GAME. Clubs do that all the time. In so doing RFC flew in the face of Axiom #3. RFC demonstrated to the players who it didn't rest that RFC was not serious about a road game. Because they are so hard to win.
Players know as well as anybody Axiom #1 of life- All words are lies; all actions are true. Players heard the words of the coaches. *smile*. And saw the true actions of the club in resting those players.
RFC players not only didn't run for 45 minutes. They didn't run at all for 60 minutes. There looked a clear lack of buy in from Taranto, Hooper and... Shai to name a few. We had a few Trojans out there but there was a classic road game absence.
RFC demonstrated that it believed the myth by resting stars for a road game. The players bought into the myth and gave themselves an hour of company time off. We all saw that.
Two things. Clubs rest players all the time for road games. (Self fulfilling prophecy much?) And despite the risks of resting them RFC did the rational thing. Throughout the season clubs prioritise some games ahead of others.
As at the end of R0 we begin to see that there are much better explanations than HGA myth for losses on the road.
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