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Talking Politics

eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
21,556
26,152
I reckon there should be a register for

rich and powerful white blokes who are total *smile*

and once they get found out, their name is added to the register.

That way, you couldn't have a rich powerful white *smile* living on your street, potentially giving you casual legal or investment advise, without you knowing it.

If there was such a register, there'd be an absolute *smile* load in my postcode.
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
It's the economy, stupid.

Or should that be, it's the stupid economy?
Let’s take a look at MW’s scenario:

Looking at the actual practise of creating new money, let’s say to finance an infrastructure project such as a railway, there are elements of the PPP (Public Private Partnership). The Government issues bonds. The banks buy the bonds. Meanwhile, the RBA stands in the market ready to buy the bonds from the banks. When the RBA buys the bonds, new money is created.

The bank’s purchase of the bonds also creates new money not just the central bank’s purchase of the bonds from the banks. Both have the ability to create money ex nihilo. The commercial banks do it when extending loans, the central banks do it when they loan to the commercial banks or through their purchases of government bonds or other securities from the market.

It could issue $5 billion worth of bonds. The banks and other investors would buy them. Then the Reserve Bank would create $5 billion in new currency by crediting their accounts when it buys the bonds from the banks.“
Correct.

The upshot? The Government has raised $5 billion worth of funds from the banks for its infrastructure project and the RBA has created another $5 billion which the banks can now lend to the private sector, perhaps to finance their contribution to the railway PPP.
So what has happened is that $10 billion of new money has been created out of thin air, the true definition of inflation. The real pool of funding has not changed, however the amount of claims to the real pool of funding has increased. This will have the effect of increasing prices throughout the economy. In this case it appears the new money will find its way into the bids for capital goods. So capital goods costs will rise as a result. The additional credit the banks can extend to the private sector will bring interests rates down, however the decrease in the cost of debt is a reflection of inflation, not a reflection of the time preferences of consumers in the economy. No additional savings has been made to reflect a preference to withhold consumption to facilitate investment. Hence the price signals are false and the capital projects that are initiated will be in error because consumer preference for consumption goods have not changed. This is the cause of the boom and bust cycle as the error occurs economy wide given interest rates are common to all market activities. There is no free lunch.

And what about the grandchildren and the debt the RBA does not buy? If Josh Frydenberg’s grandchildren inherit the debt (the bonds) and Mathias Cormann’s grandchildren pay tax, then the obligation to pay out the bonds out becomes a “zero sum grandchildren game”. One lot of grandchildren pay and another lot of grandchildren receive.

To complete the circle, if we assume the Reserve Bank has bought some of the bonds and held them to maturity, then Mathias Cormann’s grandchildren will pay their tax and the money will go to the bondholder, this time the Reserve Bank.

It then pays the money back to the Government, this time as a dividend, ergo more money for infrastructure, or maybe to help future grandchildren receiving JobSeeker in 2060
.”
What MW isn’t considering here is that both sets of grandchildren will have to pay the debt through the debasement of the currency that has occurred. As the inflation permeates through the economy, prices rise. The debt will still have to be paid from the private sector, the money people already hold and the money that will pay the debt will not be worth what it once was. Had the inflation not occurred, capital would have been much more accurately deployed to reflect consumer preferences instead of political preferences. The economy as a whole suffers from this malinvestment, most of all the people at the bottom because they don’t hold assets that could benefit from the inflation. They hold dollars that are now worth less thanks to the ideas of monetary cranks like MW.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,761
18,490
Melbourne
Let’s take a look at MW’s scenario:

Looking at the actual practise of creating new money, let’s say to finance an infrastructure project such as a railway, there are elements of the PPP (Public Private Partnership). The Government issues bonds. The banks buy the bonds. Meanwhile, the RBA stands in the market ready to buy the bonds from the banks. When the RBA buys the bonds, new money is created.

The bank’s purchase of the bonds also creates new money not just the central bank’s purchase of the bonds from the banks. Both have the ability to create money ex nihilo. The commercial banks do it when extending loans, the central banks do it when they loan to the commercial banks or through their purchases of government bonds or other securities from the market.

It could issue $5 billion worth of bonds. The banks and other investors would buy them. Then the Reserve Bank would create $5 billion in new currency by crediting their accounts when it buys the bonds from the banks.“
Correct.

The upshot? The Government has raised $5 billion worth of funds from the banks for its infrastructure project and the RBA has created another $5 billion which the banks can now lend to the private sector, perhaps to finance their contribution to the railway PPP.
So what has happened is that $10 billion of new money has been created out of thin air, the true definition of inflation. The real pool of funding has not changed, however the amount of claims to the real pool of funding has increased. This will have the effect of increasing prices throughout the economy. In this case it appears the new money will find its way into the bids for capital goods. So capital goods costs will rise as a result. The additional credit the banks can extend to the private sector will bring interests rates down, however the decrease in the cost of debt is a reflection of inflation, not a reflection of the time preferences of consumers in the economy. No additional savings has been made to reflect a preference to withhold consumption to facilitate investment. Hence the price signals are false and the capital projects that are initiated will be in error because consumer preference for consumption goods have not changed. This is the cause of the boom and bust cycle as the error occurs economy wide given interest rates are common to all market activities. There is no free lunch.

And what about the grandchildren and the debt the RBA does not buy? If Josh Frydenberg’s grandchildren inherit the debt (the bonds) and Mathias Cormann’s grandchildren pay tax, then the obligation to pay out the bonds out becomes a “zero sum grandchildren game”. One lot of grandchildren pay and another lot of grandchildren receive.

To complete the circle, if we assume the Reserve Bank has bought some of the bonds and held them to maturity, then Mathias Cormann’s grandchildren will pay their tax and the money will go to the bondholder, this time the Reserve Bank.

It then pays the money back to the Government, this time as a dividend, ergo more money for infrastructure, or maybe to help future grandchildren receiving JobSeeker in 2060
.”
What MW isn’t considering here is that both sets of grandchildren will have to pay the debt through the debasement of the currency that has occurred. As the inflation permeates through the economy, prices rise. The debt will still have to be paid from the private sector, the money people already hold and the money that will pay the debt will not be worth what it once was. Had the inflation not occurred, capital would have been much more accurately deployed to reflect consumer preferences instead of political preferences. The economy as a whole suffers from this malinvestment, most of all the people at the bottom because they don’t hold assets that could benefit from the inflation. They hold dollars that are now worth less thanks to the ideas of monetary cranks like MW.

There's one (well, actually many, but I'll just deal with one for now) problem with the above, it is bollocks.

All that you say fits well with conventional economic theory and is, as per usual, internally consistent.

But, it does not reflect reality.

At the time of the GFC governments around the world literally created trillions of dollars out of thin air.

We've had 10 years to see the impact of this now.

Conventional monetary theory as advocated by the clueless neo-liberals would tell you this would lead to massive inflation. All that money chasing the same basket of goods means that the price of those goods must go up, right? Well, right in theory . . . but . . . in the real world it just did not happen.

Now Gia, I know you think theory is more accurate than reality, but on this point we disagree. Reality trumps theory in my book and the reality is that trillions of dollars were created out of thin air to prop up the banks at the time of the GFC, inflation did not go crazy as Friedman and his clueless neo-liberal comrades predict. In short, the theory failed to work, therefore, the theory is bollocks.

Oh, and where is all the squealing about having to pay that debt back? Oh, that's right, that debt was created in order to prop up the rich so no issue. In any case it will never be paid back and everyone knows it. Furthermore, if the government issues bonds, sells them to banks, and then the reserve bank buys them back, hey presto, the government owes money to, well, to itself, and the profit goes to, hmm, you guessed it, the government. Also, the government can currently borrow at absurdly low rates of interest so any government not borrowing at the moment is insane. The price of money is a bargain, isn't it economically rational to pick up a bargain when you have the chance?

DS
 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
There's one (well, actually many, but I'll just deal with one for now) problem with the above, it is bollocks.
What I wrote does not fit into conventional economic theory. Conventional economic theory defends monetarism, just like you are doing. In contrast, I am attacking monetarism. If you understood what you were talking about you'd get that. But you don't know what you are talking about and neither does Spook. There's nothing wrong with that, but stop pretending like you do. Here's a couple more corrections to your errors:
- a theory that is not reflected in reality is bad theory, I don't suggest otherwise. I think what you are actually saying is that theory must reflect empirical evidence. The theory of boom bust cycles is most definitely reflected in the empirical evidence. The inflation that has occurred has best been reflected in the prices of assets such as stocks and real estate, it hasn't been as evident in consumer goods prices, however that too (in general) has continually gone up. I should note that in a healthy economy you'd see a continual decrease in prices of consumer goods, so even a steady price level for consumer goods is likely a reflection of inflation.
- it is economically rational to borrow money when debt is cheap, but as I said, this is actually a false signal because the cheapness of the debt is a reflection of the increase in supply of money, not an increase in the supply of goods. For the government, this is not as big a problem than it is for private companies because the government has the ability to just rob people to pay their debts. All government spending ultimately comes from the expropriation of the private sector both companies and individuals. Their money printing activities add nothing to the real pool of funding (i.e. real resources and goods available for use as capital or consumption goods). Not only does it divert resources from areas of higher demand from consumers to lower areas of demand from consumers (but of higher political demand), but it also distorts prices throughout the economy, compromising the ability for the private sector to correctly allocate resources leading to further malinvestment.
 
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jb03

Tiger Legend
Jan 28, 2004
33,856
12,110
Melbourne
I saw a tweet asking: "Does Tony Abbott have any friends who AREN'T sex offenders?"
I saw another good similarly themed tweet about The Australian newspaper which seems to be running articles defending the high court judge, something along the lines of - The Australian seems now to be targeting two core groups for their readership - paedophiles that have been caught, and paedophiles that have not been caught.
 
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spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
22,393
27,825
Melbourne
I saw another good similarly themed tweet about The Australian newspaper which seems to be running articles defending the high court judge, something along the lines of - The Australian seems now to be targeting two core groups for their readership - paedophiles that have been caught, and paedophiles that have not been caught.
The Australian is a propaganda shitrag.
 
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TT33

Yellow & Black Member
Feb 17, 2004
6,893
5,976
Melbourne
The Australian is a propaganda shitrag.



Talking about $h1trags, I see that a very large one who recently "retired" has landed himself a gig at Sky News.
Who'da thunk it.
Yep Jonesy's now an official Murdoch employee as well as being a Murdoch mouthpiece.
Surprise, surprise, surprise.
 

spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
22,393
27,825
Melbourne
Talking about $h1trags, I see that a very large one who recently "retired" has landed himself a gig at Sky News.
Who'da thunk it.
Yep Jonesy's now an official Murdoch employee as well as being a Murdoch mouthpiece.
Surprise, surprise, surprise.
Scumbags of a feather...
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,761
18,490
Melbourne
What I wrote does not fit into conventional economic theory.

You are the one who said:
"So what has happened is that $10 billion of new money has been created out of thin air, the true definition of inflation. The real pool of funding has not changed, however the amount of claims to the real pool of funding has increased. This will have the effect of increasing prices throughout the economy."​
Yep, more money chasing the same basket of goods causes inflation, that's pretty conventional monetarist theory right there.

Plus, it didn't happen..

- a theory that is not reflected in reality is bad theory, I don't suggest otherwise. I think what you are actually saying is that theory must reflect empirical evidence.

You suggest that theory not reflecting empirical evidence is somehow still reflecting reality?

That is nonsensical. Empirical evidence is a measure of reality, you know, that which is actually happening. How exactly do you describe reality? If the evidence says that pumping money (by creating it out of thin air) into the economy, such as happened in the GFC and we have had 10 years to see the impact, did not cause inflation, then your statement that "this will have the effect of increasing prices throughout the economy" does not reflect reality.

You should leave the reality distortion field of free market fundamentalism and go out in the real world one day. Pumping money into the economy can lead to inflation but it is not necessarily the case. The real world just does not fit into your theory.

As for your dismissing empirical evidence, that surprises me not at all, never let evidence get in the way of a self-serving theory.

DS
 
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MD Jazz

Don't understand football? Talk to the hand.
Feb 3, 2017
13,566
14,150
Talking about $h1trags, I see that a very large one who recently "retired" has landed himself a gig at Sky News.
Who'da thunk it.
Yep Jonesy's now an official Murdoch employee as well as being a Murdoch mouthpiece.
Surprise, surprise, surprise.

Jeebus. What a lineup now - Jones/Bolt/Murray/Kenny/Richardson/Panahi/Credlin.

With guests like Henderson/Price....

Who will be found under Jones desk first? Reckon they'd all be scared of Credlin.

And what about this crap.

 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
You are the one who said:
"So what has happened is that $10 billion of new money has been created out of thin air, the true definition of inflation. The real pool of funding has not changed, however the amount of claims to the real pool of funding has increased. This will have the effect of increasing prices throughout the economy."​
Yep, more money chasing the same basket of goods causes inflation, that's pretty conventional monetarist theory right there.

Plus, it didn't happen..
I defined inflation as an increase in the supply of money. You are defining it as an increase in CPI, exactly what conventional economic theory defines inflation as. My argument is, ceteris paribus, an increase in the supply of money will lead to an increase in prices. Now that has certain conditions on it, for example if the central bank printed $1,000,000 in cash and then buried it in the ground then that money wouldn't find its way into the economy. Ceteris paribus, any new money that finds it's way into market exchanges will lead to price increases somewhere. For the sake of argument, if the demand for money increases in line with the increase in supply, then prices would remain unchanged, however this is still a higher price level than what would have occurred had the supply not increased.

The prices of assets (property and stocks) saw huge increases since the GFC and the CPI has also increased. So yes, it did happen. The empirical evidence supports the theory.

You suggest that theory not reflecting empirical evidence is somehow still reflecting reality?

That is nonsensical. Empirical evidence is a measure of reality, you know, that which is actually happening. How exactly do you describe reality? If the evidence says that pumping money (by creating it out of thin air) into the economy, such as happened in the GFC and we have had 10 years to see the impact, did not cause inflation, then your statement that "this will have the effect of increasing prices throughout the economy" does not reflect reality.

You should leave the reality distortion field of free market fundamentalism and go out in the real world one day. Pumping money into the economy can lead to inflation but it is not necessarily the case. The real world just does not fit into your theory.

As for your dismissing empirical evidence, that surprises me not at all, never let evidence get in the way of a self-serving theory.
You don't understand the epistemological foundations of economics. You are in firm agreement with conventional economic theory that economical laws can be elucidated from empirical evidence in much the same way as the laws of physics can be. I have addressed this issue many times on these boards, I'm not going over this again. Regardless of this fact, the empirical evidence is in raging agreement with the theory. Your problem is your incorrect definition of inflation, you miss the price changes to things not included in CPI, such as capital goods prices, stock prices, property prices. Despite even this, the CPI has increased year on year over the last 10 years.

australia-consumer-price-index-cpi@2x.png


How about you check your hubris instead of ironically advising me to go out in the real world. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,761
18,490
Melbourne
You define inflation as an increase in the money supply, aah, no, that is an increase in the money supply. Is it inflation if the money supply increases by 50% but the number of goods available increases 100% and prices stay where they are? Well, no, of course not. An increase in the money supply does not equal inflation.

Aah an increase in the supply of money leads to an increase in prices, monetary theory again. But when your assertion comes up against the harsh reality that it is a crock, you pull out ceteris paribus. Yeah, something else must have changed, just because your theory not only had no predictive power but the opposite happened to what the theory predicted, is not the fault of the theory, rather, reality was to blame. Give me a break.

Still in the reality distortion field I see.

If the epistemological foundations of economics are to ignore empirical evidence then economics is in even worse shape than I thought. Must be the neo-liberal takeover of economics which sent it down the road of ignoring reality and just making everything up.

DS
 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
You define inflation as an increase in the money supply, aah, no, that is an increase in the money supply. Is it inflation if the money supply increases by 50% but the number of goods available increases 100% and prices stay where they are? Well, no, of course not. An increase in the money supply does not equal inflation.

Aah an increase in the supply of money leads to an increase in prices, monetary theory again. But when your assertion comes up against the harsh reality that it is a crock, you pull out ceteris paribus. Yeah, something else must have changed, just because your theory not only had no predictive power but the opposite happened to what the theory predicted, is not the fault of the theory, rather, reality was to blame. Give me a break.

Still in the reality distortion field I see.

If the epistemological foundations of economics are to ignore empirical evidence then economics is in even worse shape than I thought. Must be the neo-liberal takeover of economics which sent it down the road of ignoring reality and just making everything up.

DS
The original definition of inflation was an increase in the supply of money it has only more recently been changed by conventional economic theory to mean an increase in the CPI. This hides the pernicious effect of inflation to the government's benefit.

It is important to use ceteris paribus when describing the effect of changes to the money supply on the general level of prices because there are other factors that go into it as I pointed out, yet somehow this didn't get through to your head. The effect of an increase in the supply of money can be counteracted by other forces such as the demand for money and the supply/demand for goods themselves. Your idea of harsh reality is just a reflection of your petulant reaction to ideas that break your worldview that show you quite clearly to be wrong. You continually misrepresent my position to attack a straw man.

Everything that isn't your view is neo-liberal apparently. It doesn't even have a precise definition, it just allows you to remain in your safe space and anything you don't like is the neo-liberal boogieman. For all your blather about empirical evidence, I'm the only one to have actually brought some of it to this discussion.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,179
19,054
Seriously, create a Libertarian thread dedicated to this fringe economic belief instead of spamming every thread with it.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,761
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Melbourne
Gia, the Austrian school definition of inflation is not some original definition, it is actually their simplistic explanation for inflation, you are confusing definition with cause.

I do find it interesting that you are now saying that context matters. You ignore context on racism - oh we just treat all individuals the same, ignoring the context of centuries of discrimination. You also ignore context on free markets - oh, everyone is equal in a free market, ignoring the context of centuries of wealth concentration by the powerful. But apparently the free market would make wealth concentration wither away like a Leninist state.

I do label lots you say as neo-liberal, it is actually a reaction to the way that you label everything you disagree with as socialist. I only started doing this when you labeled any government intervention in a capitalist economy as socialist.

Everything that isn't your view is socialist apparently. It doesn't even have a precise definition, it just allows you to remain in your safe space and anything you don't like is the socialist boogieman. Your ideological purity would make many a dogmatic Marxist proud.

DS
 
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Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
Gia, the Austrian school definition of inflation is not some original definition, it is actually their simplistic explanation for inflation, you are confusing definition with cause.
You are wrong.



I do find it interesting that you are now saying that context matters. You ignore context on racism - oh we just treat all individuals the same, ignoring the context of centuries of discrimination. You also ignore context on free markets - oh, everyone is equal in a free market, ignoring the context of centuries of wealth concentration by the powerful. But apparently the free market would make wealth concentration wither away like a Leninist state.
Irrelevant blather. This is a classic example of Orwell's meaningless words that you make use of extensively on these threads.

I do label lots you say as neo-liberal, it is actually a reaction to the way that you label everything you disagree with as socialist. I only started doing this when you labeled any government intervention in a capitalist economy as socialist.

Everything that isn't your view is socialist apparently. It doesn't even have a precise definition, it just allows you to remain in your safe space and anything you don't like is the socialist boogieman. Your ideological purity would make many a dogmatic Marxist proud.
It's not a reaction to what I do, you fight the neo-liberal boogieman when you go on your incoherent ramblings with other posters. Unlike neo-liberalism, Socialism does have a precise definition, it is any system of institutional aggression on the free exercise of entrepreneurship. Hence why I label any government intervention as socialism. For example, taken as a whole, Australia isn't socialist, but nor is it capitalist. It is interventionist with a mixture of both elements, however any action that involves intervention is itself socialist. You on the other hand can't provide this level of precision for neo-liberalism.
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,179
19,054
I haven’t been talking about libertarianism at all here and libertarianism isn’t economics.

You're a smart guy, smarter than me. Surely you know what I meant. Libertarianism / Austrian School of Economics - all the same mumbo jumbo to stupid little me.