Talking Politics

[AngryAnt]

It's not a reaction to what I do, you fight the neo-liberal boogieman when you go on your incoherent ramblings with other posters. Unlike neo-liberalism, Socialism does have a precise definition, it is any system of institutional aggression on the free exercise of entrepreneurship.

That's an extremely ideological definition of socialism. I have no doubt you believe that definition to be accurate, but socialists would define socialism in very different ways.

Hence why I label any government intervention as socialism. For example, taken as a whole, Australia isn't socialist, but nor is it capitalist. It is interventionist with a mixture of both elements, however any action that involves intervention is itself socialist. You on the other hand can't provide this level of precision for neo-liberalism.

I agree that Australia is neither socialist nor capitalist, but somewhere in between. It's pretty easy to define neo-liberalism too, although definitions of socialism, neo-liberalism or even libertarianism are always "essentially contested". There is no one definition that everyone can agree on and just saying "my definition is right" doesn't win the argument.

 

[DavidSSS]

You are wrong.

So if the money supply increases but prices fall, that is inflation?

Yeah right.

Inflation is not a word which only refers to economics, it is also used in other contexts such as astronomy and the inflating universe. Inflation means something is expanding or increasing, in economics it is used in relation to prices in a market, except when you are Austrian School where they have their own special definition they want everyone else to slavishly follow.

It's not a reaction to what I do, you fight the neo-liberal boogieman when you go on your incoherent ramblings with other posters. Unlike neo-liberalism, Socialism does have a precise definition, it is any system of institutional aggression on the free exercise of entrepreneurship. Hence why I label any government intervention as socialism. For example, taken as a whole, Australia isn't socialist, but nor is it capitalist. It is interventionist with a mixture of both elements, however any action that involves intervention is itself socialist. You on the other hand can't provide this level of precision for neo-liberalism.

What rubbish, so many versions of socialism out there, many uses of the word too.

I do note your irritation at everything you say being labelled as neo-liberal, then you defend your own practice of labeling everything you don't like as socialist. Don't like it when your own tactics are thrown back at you, do you?

DS

 

[Giardiasis]

That's an extremely ideological definition of socialism. I have no doubt you believe that definition to be accurate, but socialists would define socialism in very different ways.

I agree that Australia is neither socialist nor capitalist, but somewhere in between. It's pretty easy to define neo-liberalism too, although definitions of socialism, neo-liberalism or even libertarianism are always "essentially contested". There is no one definition that everyone can agree on and just saying "my definition is right" doesn't win the argument.

What's a non-ideological definition of socialism? Yes, interpretation of words is very important. I feel like the definition I provided is the most all encompassing answer as the historical definition of the social ownership of the means of production isn't as precise IMO.

Well I've challenged David to provide a definition for neo-liberalism, yet he hasn't provided one yet. Do you have one?

 

[Baloo]

I'll write things as I see fit.

I tried

 

[Giardiasis]

So if the money supply increases but prices fall, that is inflation?

Yeah right.

Inflation is not a word which only refers to economics, it is also used in other contexts such as astronomy and the inflating universe. Inflation means something is expanding or increasing, in economics it is used in relation to prices in a market, except when you are Austrian School where they have their own special definition they want everyone else to slavishly follow.

An increase in the supply of money, ceteris paribus, will result in an increase in prices somewhere. However it is entirely possible that an increase in the supply of money won't lead to nominal increases in prices, if for example, the demand for money increased significantly to offset the effect. You fail to demonstrate how this is in error either logically or through empirical evidence.

Point is, the historical definition is an increase in the supply of money. I believe this definition is more appropriate than the mainstream definition, because it confuses people such as yourself as to the deleterious effect of increasing the supply of money.

What rubbish, so many versions of socialism out there, many uses of the word too.

I do note your irritation at everything you say being labelled as neo-liberal, then you defend your own practice of labeling everything you don't like as socialist. Don't like it when your own tactics are thrown back at you, do you?

DS

That's my definition, I believe it is precise and allows me to remain logically consistent with my arguments. Thanks for noting, I'll be sure to add it to your long list of irrelevant incorrect statements.

 

[AngryAnt]

What's a non-ideological definition of socialism? Yes, interpretation of words is very important. I feel like the definition I provided is the most all encompassing answer as the historical definition of the social ownership of the means of production isn't as precise IMO.

Well I've challenged David to provide a definition for neo-liberalism, yet he hasn't provided one yet. Do you have one?

Your definition is perfect from the point of view of a libertarian. And there is no non-ideological definition. It's essentially contested, as I said.

On neo-liberalism, again it means different things to different people so I agree it's less cohesive and defined than say libertarianism or socialism. Ostensibly about laissez faire markets, it nevertheless has strong elements of government and corporate intervention and rent-seeking. Austerity. Maybe even quant. easing. You could also link it to behaviour of nation-states in terms of welfare/warfare etc

 

[Sintiger]

Back in the subject of politics.

I hate political spin, it grinds my gears. No matter who it comes from.

SCOMO yesterday declared that in relation to the ABC “ there are no cuts, the budget is increasing every year” .
The ABC’s budget will increase less than 0.5% in each of the next 3 years.

Anybody with half a brain knows that is a cut

Drives me crazy

 

[22nd Man]

Jeebus. What a lineup now - Jones/Bolt/Murray/Kenny/Richardson/Panahi/Credlin.

With guests like Henderson/Price....

Who will be found under Jones desk first? Reckon they'd all be scared of Credlin.

And what about this crap.

Debate in Australia ‘narrows’ with less conservative commentators on 2GB

Nine Media’s softening of popular Sydney radio station 2GB’s conservative roots has further narrowed the political discourse in Australia according to The Australian’s Gerard Henderson. After the retirement of radio legend and Sky News host Alan Jones, along with the exit of prominent...

www.skynews.com.au

I love how Bolt has the gall to complain that a commercial radio station is employing people who are more attractive to advertisers. Fancy that management trying to make a profit not shove one poltical perspective down listeners ears.
But the best news was that Steve Price has been given the Tijuana ... pathetic human. Would be a legend in RFC fans hall of shame.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Shaoquett Moselmane: Federal police raid NSW Labor MP’s home (paywalled)

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has declared Australia “won’t cop” foreign interference in its political system, revealing the investigation into NSW Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane have been “going on for some time”.

The Sydney home of Mr Moselmane was searched today by federal police and ASIO over claims of foreign interference, believed to be from China.

Mr Morrison said he had been briefed on the investigation on Thursday night and was “not at liberty” to go into the details, adding things had “elevated to a new level today” with multiple raids.

“It’s a matter that is being pursued by the taskforce which became operational last December, which we established,” he said.

“I think the actions of the Australian Federal Police and ASIO demonstrate that the threats in this area are real,” he said.

“The need to take action is necessary and the Government is absolutely determined to ensure that nobody interferes with Australia’s activities.”

Australia’s spy agency ASIO confirmed it was behind the raids this morning on properties belonging to NSW Labor upper house MP Shaoquett Moselmane.

It is understood the raids are part of an investigation into claims Chinese government agents have infiltrated Australian politics through influencing the NSW politician.

ASIO said there was no “specific threat to the community” but would not comment further.

- - - - -

Probably the most significant thing Morrison has overseen in his short time at the helm. The purge must be thorough.

 

[AngryAnt]

The purge must be thorough.

Stalinism lives

 

[Baloo]

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has declared Australia “won’t cop” foreign interference in its political system,

Rupert Murdoch is American right?

 

[AngryAnt]

Shaoquett Moselmane: Federal police raid NSW Labor MP’s home (paywalled)

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has declared Australia “won’t cop” foreign interference in its political system, revealing the investigation into NSW Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane have been “going on for some time”.

The Sydney home of Mr Moselmane was searched today by federal police and ASIO over claims of foreign interference, believed to be from China.

Mr Morrison said he had been briefed on the investigation on Thursday night and was “not at liberty” to go into the details, adding things had “elevated to a new level today” with multiple raids.

“It’s a matter that is being pursued by the taskforce which became operational last December, which we established,” he said.

“I think the actions of the Australian Federal Police and ASIO demonstrate that the threats in this area are real,” he said.

“The need to take action is necessary and the Government is absolutely determined to ensure that nobody interferes with Australia’s activities.”

Australia’s spy agency ASIO confirmed it was behind the raids this morning on properties belonging to NSW Labor upper house MP Shaoquett Moselmane.

It is understood the raids are part of an investigation into claims Chinese government agents have infiltrated Australian politics through influencing the NSW politician.

ASIO said there was no “specific threat to the community” but would not comment further.

-

Maybe they could look into Gladys Liu once they are done with this fellow

 

[TT33]

Shaoquett Moselmane: Federal police raid NSW Labor MP’s home (paywalled)

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has declared Australia “won’t cop” foreign interference in its political system, revealing the investigation into NSW Labor MP Shaoquett Moselmane have been “going on for some time”.

The Sydney home of Mr Moselmane was searched today by federal police and ASIO over claims of foreign interference, believed to be from China.

Mr Morrison said he had been briefed on the investigation on Thursday night and was “not at liberty” to go into the details, adding things had “elevated to a new level today” with multiple raids.

“It’s a matter that is being pursued by the taskforce which became operational last December, which we established,” he said.

“I think the actions of the Australian Federal Police and ASIO demonstrate that the threats in this area are real,” he said.

“The need to take action is necessary and the Government is absolutely determined to ensure that nobody interferes with Australia’s activities.”

Australia’s spy agency ASIO confirmed it was behind the raids this morning on properties belonging to NSW Labor upper house MP Shaoquett Moselmane.

It is understood the raids are part of an investigation into claims Chinese government agents have infiltrated Australian politics through influencing the NSW politician.

ASIO said there was no “specific threat to the community” but would not comment further.

- - - - -

Probably the most significant thing Morrison has overseen in his short time at the helm. The purge must be thorough.

What a hypocrite Scomo is. He's the PM of the most corrupt Government Australia has EVER HAD.

He's a scumbag of the highest order.
Peter Dutton comes to mind amongst very many.

 

[DavidSSS]

I believe this definition is more appropriate than the mainstream definition,

That's my definition,

Aah so your definition is right because . . . it's your definition.

Hmm, this reminds me of someone else, I know who it was:

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

From: Through the Looking Glass - Lewis Carol

What's a non-ideological definition of socialism? Yes, interpretation of words is very important. I feel like the definition I provided is the most all encompassing answer as the historical definition of the social ownership of the means of production isn't as precise IMO.

Well I've challenged David to provide a definition for neo-liberalism, yet he hasn't provided one yet. Do you have one?

Gia, it looks like I have to help you out yet again.

Neo-Liberalism:

• neo-liberalism aims to bring all human action into the domain of the market.
• neo-liberalism argues that value can only be measured in money terms, all value is commodified and financialised.
• hence, ethical action and voluntary cooperation are not given any value.
• neo-liberalism also posits that there is no such thing as public interest.

Neo-liberalism posits the notion that humans are rational actors and defines this as meaning that humans only consider outcomes in terms of direct personal advantage.

Seems to mirror your views on the world, not as simplistic as most of the definitions you prefer but neo-liberalism is not monolithic, it does have different branches with some common beliefs, just like socialism has different branches, with some common beliefs.

Mind you, “neo-liberalism” does make for a nice derogatory term to throw about, much like the right uses “socialism” to describe anything they don’t like. The difference between you and I is that I understand that I’m using it as a derogatory simplification, you actually seem to think your inadequate understanding of socialism somehow makes you the smartest person in the room.

It helps to explain things properly rather than just throwing up a label you clearly do not understand, and to always remember that there is always more to learn. Reading Das Kapital or The Road to Serfdom is not enough.

Your ideological purity bears more than a passing resemblance to a lot of Marxists I have met. You would get on like a house on fire, safely cocooned in your ideological straight jackets.

Since you seem to favour historical definitions you might like to look up Le Libertaire published in New York in the 19th century, then you will understand why I refer to you as a so-called libertarian.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

What a hypocrite Scomo is. He's the PM of the most corrupt Government Australia has EVER HAD.

He's a scumbag of the highest order.
Peter Dutton comes to mind amongst very many.

Very happy for all political interference in Government to be investigated.
However I am struggling to remember the outcome of the AFP investigation into Stuart Robert’s links to China a few years ago ........

 

[MB78]

No time for cheerleading either side of politics when AFP are involved. International interference must be investigated and stamped out. It’s bad enough that many don’t serve us and only serve their own interests let alone another country’s.

 

[AngryAnt]

No time for cheerleading either side of politics when AFP are involved. International interference must be investigated and stamped out. It’s bad enough that many don’t serve us and only serve their own interests let alone another country’s.

Dunno about this case but the AFP have been totally politicised. Raid plans leaked to the media, raids on journalists, raids on union figures with no outcomes or convictions recorded.

The AFP are a joke these days.

 

[MB78]

Dunno about this case but the AFP have been totally politicised. Raid plans leaked to the media, raids on journalists, raids on union figures with no outcomes or convictions recorded.

The AFP are a joke these days.

Well I would prefer that they investigating. As we need to have accountability in our political system. But it sounds like their leadership might need a shake up based on your comments.

 

[Baloo]

The politicisation of everything these days is a cancer. I blame it on the fact the media companies are controlled by only a few. Back when there were stricter laws about media ownership, there was a lot more transparency and balanced critique of what the governments were doing.

 

[AngryAnt]

Well I would prefer that they investigating. As we need to have accountability in our political system. But it sounds like their leadership might need a shake up based on your comments.

Any political interference by foreign actors needs investigation, I agree.