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Regrets, I've had a few, but then again there's three cups to mention... - Former Tiger Trade Debates
- Thread starter turk-d-tiger
- Start date
in a recent interview Dimma said something that I think was quite telling
"young guys cant play seconds for ever and if they play seconds for too long that's what they become , seconds players"
Butler , Higgins , C Ellis, Miles , Lloyd were looking anchored in the 2's with us
and the writing was on the wall with B Ellis
3 premierships in 4 years and a minor premiership , we clearly have a traffic jam of talent for the top side
and Dimma said sort of that influenced their decision trade out a draft pick last year , they have enough young talent stockpiled
Balme talking during the Dee's game , "how do we get games into these young guys and still pick the best team each week"
what we paid for "sanchez" McMahon , Hampson , Yarran wasn't great , but they are in the past
how we handled the exists of C & B Ellis , Lloyd , Miles , Butler , Higgins should be applauded
Markov , do you drive a hard bargain and risk having him in the 2's waiting for injuries
he's got a limited window to make it as a first grader
we've got Dow, Ralph-Smith & Martyn who can play that waiting game for longer
yes , they aren't as ready as Markov , but his likelihood of 1st grade games is unsure , so let him go and get what ever we can
"young guys cant play seconds for ever and if they play seconds for too long that's what they become , seconds players"
Butler , Higgins , C Ellis, Miles , Lloyd were looking anchored in the 2's with us
and the writing was on the wall with B Ellis
3 premierships in 4 years and a minor premiership , we clearly have a traffic jam of talent for the top side
and Dimma said sort of that influenced their decision trade out a draft pick last year , they have enough young talent stockpiled
Balme talking during the Dee's game , "how do we get games into these young guys and still pick the best team each week"
what we paid for "sanchez" McMahon , Hampson , Yarran wasn't great , but they are in the past
how we handled the exists of C & B Ellis , Lloyd , Miles , Butler , Higgins should be applauded
Markov , do you drive a hard bargain and risk having him in the 2's waiting for injuries
he's got a limited window to make it as a first grader
we've got Dow, Ralph-Smith & Martyn who can play that waiting game for longer
yes , they aren't as ready as Markov , but his likelihood of 1st grade games is unsure , so let him go and get what ever we can
But the house can't decide that because you can't live in it then it will kick you out and get someone new to live in it.
You assume that Butler will have re-signed with the Tigers. Maybe his mind was made up and he was going whether we got a trade or not, ie. he would be delisted and the Saints would pick him up for free, so we took what we could get.
Your point is essentially we had a strong hand as we would have re-signed him, but you don't know that, thats complete hearsay.
Oh, I guess it was an outstanding trade then. Be careful with that swagger.
Good post and a lot I agree with. The main problem with the Butler trade was less about having enough of a certain type of player and more about making a trade commensurate with the player's value. No doubt we try to give players opportunity where possible ... I just happen to prefer we get fair value in return.
I'm actually saying that is what we should have done, on the basis of a low-ball offer from the Saints and the kid's proven ability. Two different things.
Agreed. Also at the time he was struggling to get a kick in our 2nd's side.
I'm glad to see him doing well now though.
Also with Oleg, I must have missed something, apart from a few decent games in his first season & a few handy ones last year, I'm not sure how any more than a 3rd rounder was possible.
I think there is one more element which is that there is a finite list size. If Higgins stays someone else has to go. If Butler stays someone else has to go.
There is also salary cap , we may replace a $350k player with an 18 year old draftee and that helps us pay someone else a bit more to extend their contract or stay within the cap.
There are lots of factors many of which as fans we are not a party to.
It really is amazing how we can collectively come up with so many good reasons to dish off an elite player for minimum chips.
The Fonz would be proud of you all!!!
So the question should be: if Butler had gone to the Saints and continued the same form line he displayed in his last year with us, would some still be suggesting we got unders?
I would suggest most would have felt very well compensated under those circumstances.
No one could possibly forecast the form reversal therefore the argument of under compensation is weak and revisionary.
Dan Butler is not elite buddy. He has some great traits, but he’s nowhere near elite status.
Regardless, I respect your views and I can agree to disagree
exactly. We traded him for what he was worth at the time, which was not a lot. We couldn't re-sign him, he would have clogged up a list space and not got game time given his last season's form.
That's how I would have preferred we played it in light of no reasonable offers for his services. That said, one wonders what St Kilda might have done had Richmond rejected its low-ball offer. Would they have suddenly found a future second-rounder?
Part of the answer to that is to return to the Butler thread to see the angst from some posters, myself included, at the time of our grand sale. Please don't go down the 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' path because it was pretty obvious Butler was in a form slump given what he'd previously shown us.
Is it though? As I said earlier, form is temporary, class is permanent. And there were plenty who gnashed their teeth at the time of the trade.
You're a hard marker. I think he's showed us 2.5 seasons of elite footy and he's only 24. Barring further injury, I'll put my house on him remaining one of the comp's premier small forwards for several more years.
While I was wrapped for Mansell, and wish him all the best, I was surprised that we put him on our list so far out from the season starting.
Have seen very little of Mansell makes me uninformed, but Green and Egg would give the list better balance for mine. Egg seems like a natural replacement for Houli.
Higlet doesnt really fit a niche position he's a bitzer and as a midfielder he's slow and small.
As another poster has already said ...we likely wont miss Higgins, especially moreso if we are in the market for a top line midfielder by trade or FA.
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Has a bit of Richmond about it with our Grigg and Houli recruits
If he was an elite small forward at the time of trade.
1 - Why did we trade him?
2 - Why were there not another 16 clubs trying to take him off our hands?
The point is, however well he is playing now (and I wouldn't say he is elite, good to very good yes but not elite), he wasn't showing that form.
You are still assuming in what you are saying (ie. prefered to have offered him a new contract), that we didn't offer him a contract, maybe we did and he said he was leaving regardless. With only 1 club in the mix, it was a buyers market, we were never going to get good compensation.
As I've said, form is temporary, class is permanent.
Look at any syndesmosis injury and you'll see they are tricky to manage. Why did we trade him? Because we stuffed up.
As for the 16 other clubs, I have no idea of their priorities but Carlton took Eddie Betts (a great man but an appalling choice in a list sense) over Butler. If that's indicative of their intelligence, then God save the lot of them!!!
Yeah, I've said he's elite and totally stand by it. You cannot describe his 2017 any other way. Along with Castagna and Rioli, he set the template for our drought-breaking premiership. It was a staggering contribution from, essentially, a first-year player. I will never forget it.
Fast forward to 2020 ... more goals than Liam Ryan and Tom Papley. His goal-kicking return was basically the same as that of Castagna and Bolton ... combined. Outshone Charlie Cameron on virtually every useful metric.
Picked in the AA squad. Second in the Saints' B&F. Ranked #1 for tackles inside 50.
Best small forward in the comp going into 2021.
This was not reported to be the case. Balme said, quite some time out from the trade period, that Butler was free to explore his options. I very much doubt we offered him an opportunity to stay and that was a mistake. Was then, is now.
Two clubs in the mix. St Kilda and Richmond. One got it right and one got it wrong.
As you've repeatedly stated with no inside knowledge. Free to explore your options means, you probably aren't best 22, see if you can find somewhere that is. It doesn't mean we were going to delist him. I would have thought we would almost certainly have been offering a contract if he didn't find one elsewhere. What you and I don't know is if Butler then thought, I want to go to the Saints as I will get 1st team footy there as it was unlikely at Richmond, he may then have denied the contract. You are assuming that saying he can explore his options meant we wouldn't have offered him a contract. I would say the situation is almost identical to Markov, we would have kept both but when they found a better option and they didn't want to stay then we took the only thing we could get for him.
Lots of assumptions going on here bagging the club out with no knowledge of if those assumptions are accurate.
BTW his 2017 was good, but 1.2 goals per game isn't elite.
