Regrets, I've had a few, but then again there's three cups to mention... - Former Tiger Trade Debates

[Number8]

Consistency and loyalty?

You realise I quoted averages, yeah? So that's consistency.

As for loyalty, it was the Tigers that invited Butler to explore his options:

'Richmond list boss Neil Balme expressed public support for Butler to explore greater AFL-level playing opportunities at other clubs in the first week of October'

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Butler_(Australian_footballer)]

But it was only very late in the trade period that Butler requested a move.

Got anything else you want to try on?

 

[AngryAnt]

End of the day, no one else wanted him. He went very late, was not a priority for the Saints. We got what the market would bear.

 

[Tortured Tiger]

End of the day, no one else wanted him. He went very late, was not a priority for the Saints. We got what the market would bear.

That is very true, even they treated Butler as steak knives to their other deals. To be honest the Saints are probably shocked how well he did last year. The change was obviously good for Dan so good luck to him. We had too many smalls and picked up a key position player in Biggy so win/win for both teams and Dan. That is what good trading is all about.

 

[Mr Brightside]

Obviously it doesn’t matter one iota , however I thought adding Jordan Roughead would have been good insurance policy going forward due to him been a bit of a utility type , been a better player for the Pies then I thought he was.

 

[Brodders17]

Of those we have lost recently, BEllis is the best footballer, but most thought he would be easy enough to replace and that assessment looks right. Markov played some flashy football with us, and will probably have a decent career, but again easy to replace.
Butler is a good ordinary footballer. He was on our list for 5 years and had 2 years of good football, last year he was great for the saints in the 1st half, so so in the 2nd, and has been mentioned the saints set up suited him perfectly. his drop in form probably coincided with other teams paying the saints and their game style for respect. this year will be an interesting year for him. again no real loss IMO.
Higgins is the one who i reckon could have the best career out of the 4. He aint quick, and not a great kick, but he is a smart footballer. he is the type who could average 20+ disposals and a goal a week. I can understand why he left though. He has been around a few years and was no lock to get a game with us. another year in the 2nds, or struggling with injuries at his size and he might not have found much interest come trade time this year.

 

[Dont Argue]

You realise I quoted averages, yeah? So that's consistency.

As for loyalty, it was the Tigers that invited Butler to explore his options:

'Richmond list boss Neil Balme expressed public support for Butler to explore greater AFL-level playing opportunities at other clubs in the first week of October'

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Butler_(Australian_footballer)]

But it was only very late in the trade period that Butler requested a move.

Got anything else you want to try on?

One good year and two poor ones does not a summer make.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

One good year and two poor ones does not a summer make.

I do wonder how on earth we’ve won another Premiership after trading away one of the leagues best players for a packet of chips. Just lucky I guess.

 

[Number8]

One good year and two poor ones does not a summer make.

Have you really gone back and looked at Butler's 2018? He was flying before his injury. To describe it as poor is just not right.

2017—excellent
2018—excellent until injured
2019—seven games, five losses and two wins
2020—excellent

 

[AngryAnt]

2019—seven games, five losses and two wins

He stank it up in 2019, not sure why you can't admit this.

 

[Number8]

I do wonder how on earth we’ve won another Premiership after trading away one of the leagues best players for a packet of chips. Just lucky I guess.

Not really the point. You sound pretty happy with how we're travelling, yeah? Don't you want it to last as long as possible? Then let's get decent picks in return for quality players. Seems like good business to me.

He stank it up in 2019, not sure why you can't admit this.

Are we trading players for junk picks on the back of seven poor games now? Of which five were losses where the entire team played sub-standard? Jesus wept!

 

[Streak]

Markov is harder to judge because, while he was more than capable at AFL level for us, HBF isn't the hardest spot on the ground to fill. I don't doubt he'll do pretty well at Gold Coast.

And, I think of the three he was the one we clearly wanted to keep. I think there was genuine disappointment amongst the football management people (coaches, list managers etc.) that he wanted to leave. I think he sat in the coaches box for the GF, which I read as either Dimma wanting to thank him for his efforts, or trying to make a big move to keep him.

 

[Tenacious Tiges]

Markov will be one we regret, imho

That’s my feeling as well. Houli looks cooked and he looked cooked after the GF. We will be lucky to get a half a season out of him with his old man injury. I regret we have not kept Lego. Will be interesting to see how he performs this year.

 

[Tigermad2005]

Have you really gone back and looked at Butler's 2018? He was flying before his injury. To describe it as poor is just not right.

2017—excellent
2018—excellent until injured
2019—seven games, five losses and two wins
2020—excellent

in the end with us he looked like a player trying to hard.

 

[AngryAnt]

Not really the point. You sound pretty happy with how we're travelling, yeah? Don't you want it to last as long as possible? Then let's get decent picks in return for quality players. Seems like good business to me.

Are we trading players for junk picks on the back of seven poor games now? Of which five were losses where the entire team played sub-standard? Jesus wept!

No, it was the whole season where he couldn't even get the form in the VFL to make the team. Granted, coming off an injury, but them's the breaks man. Sometimes you let a player go to get another opportunity elsewhere. We are hardly short of small pressure forward line players after all.

I liked Butler, was always a fan of his - a decent small forward with limitations.

We got what he was worth at the time and I'm sure his friends at Richmond are happy to see him doing well. And this is the thing - we got what the market would bear.

 

[DuD_Delist]

Blind Freddy could see it was a bad deal and we didn't need hindsight to tell us.

The fact is, he was always going to make St Kilda better. Which is why bleating about Richmond having a surfeit of small forwards is irrelevant. At the negotiation table, it's about leveraging the need of the other party. Never give a sucker an even break.

Our recruiting has been incredible these past few years. The more 'fringe' players we give away, the less that record means.

While our fantastic club is well and truly in credit when it comes to making smart decisions in recent times, we got this one wrong.

Always going to make the saints better?
Come off it.
Going on his 19 form how could you even suggest that?

 

[DuD_Delist]

Sorry, comparing Richmond and Essendon is ridiculous. We're talking about getting fair value for a 23-year-old premiership player—and pick 56 doesn't cut it, to quote Captain Obvious. You could perhaps adjust your thinking towards not realistically being the stone cold loser in every trade, which is what the recent run of Ellis, Higgins, Markov and Butler looks like to me.

Sure, if he wanted to take that risk. Most in that situation don't, of course.

For the love of God, he was 23 when traded with his career ahead of him. You're talking about getting ten years out of a bloke, not the 1-2 Geelong will get out of Smith and Higgins, who are both past their best.

Butler now has 2.5 seasons of elite football on the board, that is a fact. How do you know he won't reach the level of Smith and Higgins? He's looking pretty well placed right now.

You lot know it's OK to acknowledge we stuffed this up, yeah?

Considering the Saints gave away all their early picks for the Likes of Hill/Ryder & Howard.Pick 56 was what was leftover.

 

[DuD_Delist]

Let the debate rage.

Higgins had 24 disposals and kicked 1.3 last night.
Should have got a top 10 draft pick for him.

Only way the saints to give us pick in the top 10 is if they gave us King.

 

[tigerman]

Higgins was always an inside mid, too much competition for spots with us, he'll do well in the midfield with the Aints.

 

[Number8]

Going on his 19 form how could you even suggest that?

Less about his 2019 form and more about St Kilda's lack of his type. He was always going to make them a lot better because they didn't have a single decent footballer who could lay a tackle inside 50 or apply any sort of defensive pressure.

Anyway, as I've said repeatedly—form is temporary, class is permanent. If you only judge Butler on this 2019 output then you're only seeing part of the picture. Seven games out of 45 ... at least two of which were actually pretty good.

No, it was the whole season where he couldn't even get the form in the VFL to make the team.

Another furphy. He was picked or recalled on three separate occasions in 2019. Unfortunately for all concerned, his best game of the season was probably the VFL grand final.

We are hardly short of small pressure forward line players after all.

Right now, I'd pick Butler before I picked Aarts—but that's me. I know plenty would go the other way. Both players bring slightly different things. In my opinion, Bolton is out of the discussion. He's now a midfielder/high half-forward and doesn't offer the same elite forward pressure of Aarts or Butler.

On Butler, he was ordinary bordering on putrid in most of senior games in 2019. I clearly remember his cat like efforts v Port in our big win in Adelaide in 2019.

What? He didn't play against Port in Adelaide in 2019.

Fair dinkum, there are more holes in some of these arguments than a big lump of Swiss cheese.

 

[AngryAnt]

The biggest hole in the argument is that we traded him, we were

Another furphy. He was picked or recalled on three separate occasions in 2019. Unfortunately for all concerned, his best game of the season was probably the VFL grand final.

The simple truth is he couldn't stay in the side because his AFL form was terrible. He'd done his dash with us and wanted to explore other options. Fair enough, too. So we traded him for the best we could get, which was not much.

If you want to leverage price, you need multiple bidders - only the Saints wanted him, and only for a late pick.

End of story.