Feminism | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Feminism

Can you please show examples of this gender wage gap - specifically women being paid less for doing the same role. Real world examples. Or are you merely arguing for lower paid jobs to get increased wages? Perhaps you could then explain who funds such arbitrary increases?

I suppose in childcare a solution would be make it all free (I think free childcare has merit personally) by having the gov't subsidise it. And then you could increase the wages by increasing the subsidies? Problem is you'd probably find more men seeking out childcare jobs.

Thanks for making my point for me, yes, jobs men have tend to be paid more, which is why we have a gender pay gap.

As for the racism, in what way is the race of the people L2R2R was afraid of relevant? It seems we can't point out that the sexual predators are overwhelmingly men, but associating crime with Africans? No problem.

DS
 
As for the racism, in what way is the race of the people L2R2R was afraid of relevant? It seems we can't point out that the sexual predators are overwhelmingly men, but associating crime with Africans? No problem.
You can and have, and nobody's disagreeing with you.

Question for you: If I'd been assaulted in the backstreets of Fitzroy, knowing there was a small but tangible risk, would I have been to blame?
 
Thanks for making my point for me, yes, jobs men have tend to be paid more, which is why we have a gender pay gap.

As for the racism, in what way is the race of the people L2R2R was afraid of relevant? It seems we can't point out that the sexual predators are overwhelmingly men, but associating crime with Africans? No problem.

DS
So should everyone be paid the same? SO should a child care worker with little qualifications be paid the same say as a carpenter with a completed apprenticeship? Or a mechanic? Or an accountant?

What is your solution?

Where did I reference racism? Please don't ascribe things to me incorrectly, am only interested in this pay issue you raise.

On matters of mens violence against women I support all measures to improve womens safety, it particularly starts at home and in schools. I agree with a lot of the article posted on toxic masculinity. Men need to know its OK to ask for help and be vulnerable. Its actually a sign of strength and character and takes immense courage. But it aint easy and will take lots of education and example setting to change.
 
You can and have, and nobody's disagreeing with you.

Question for you: If I'd been assaulted in the backstreets of Fitzroy, knowing there was a small but tangible risk, would I have been to blame?

Hmm, I think I'll seek advice on this.

If all women loudly shouted "No!" then the system would clean itself up.

You could shout No loudly and it would all clean itself up and you wouldn't be mugged.

Is it possible... maybe... in your tiny little world of possibilities that she mistakenly thought she was raped? That she can't actually remember?

Gee, maybe you only thought you got assaulted. You might need to check that out.

I don't tend to blame the victim myself, but if you ever get assaulted and want to find someone who will willingly blame the victim then all you need is a mirror.

DS
 
You could shout No loudly and it would all clean itself up and you wouldn't be mugged.
Work environment.

I wasn't pissed.

Conflating issues - a cowardly way to avoid answering the question. Is it my fault if I know there's a risk, and I go ahead and do it anyway because I "deserve" to be safe?
 
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Why are women the default chief nurturer?

Why is it only mothers who have to make the choice between career and family and not fathers?

DS
How do you know this to be absolutely true? If you are asserting fathers don’t make this choice too you don’t know what you are talking about. I’m aware of multiple counter factuals to this where the father has sacrificed career and raised the children to support his wife’s career. I wouldn’t argue that it’s evenly balanced but Again I also wouldn’t profess to know what people want and what conversations they have had. With some of these ladies I would think their assumption would have been the father was going to need to raise the kids - but I don’t know - how do you? If you said why is it ‘typically’ ... then the answer is the same as to your other question.

i agree the default assumption is that the woman will do this and people are surprised when this isn’t the case. Why? Probably because that’s the way its been for a very long time and societies norms take time and impetus to change.
 
You are still yet to explain how it is racist? Please tell me best practice how you would describe what Lee went through in his life example?
Best practice? What?

The story was 'I saw some black people, tried to avoid them, but then I saw even more black people. I was lucky I didn't get stabbed. ' How is that not racism?

I honestly doubt Lee even denies that it was Racism. He seemed to think he was justified in judging them on their race.
 
Best practice? What?

The story was 'I saw some black people, tried to avoid them, but then I saw even more black people. I was lucky I didn't get stabbed. ' How is that not racism?

I honestly doubt Lee even denies that it was Racism. He seemed to think he was justified in judging them on their race.
This wasn’t written. Stop making things up.
 
Was walking back to my car in Fitzroy late one night carrying the work laptop in a nice leather bag. Turned down a sidestreet on my usual route and there are three Africans walking towards me. OK I say to myself, keep going straight and take the next right. And damned if there aren't four more Africans coming from that direction! Do you think my heart didn't jump or I didn't start thinking about what to do if they pulled knives or jumped me?

This wasn’t written. Stop making things up.
I paraphrased.
 
Similar to comments I have made on other forums. I am a reasonably culturally/socially conservative person, because I had quite a traditionalist upbringing, very close to my maternal grandparents and value highly many of the old world values they instilled in me. This is not to deny that there have always been terrible things going on regarding male behaviour towards women. But in actual fact it is largely the antithesis of gentlemanly, chivalrous values I was taught in my personal experience.

The masculine values I picked up from my grandfather were to be self-disciplined, stoic, strong, responsible, reserved and restrained. Be humble and live with the duty and responsibility to serve your family (and by extension, take this into your community life). Don't let your emotions too much out into the open. And by extension, recognising the fact that as a male you do have burning urges that intensifies one's sexuality. But similar to acting restrained, reserved and with self-discipline regarding emotions, you also have a responsibility to keep those sexual urges in check. It's part of growing up and being a responsible adult man. Not doing so in my mind is a sign of weakness. And the consumerist culture of hedonism as people's central reason for being, denigrates much of that ideal of self control and restraint. And hence the disgusting behaviour like that being called out in Parliament seems to be on steroids.

There is an inconvenient truth for a lot people of the social constructionist school of thought, in that men and women are very different in their motivations from a biological point of view and hence, what this does to their conscience and psychology (a grossly generalised point of view I acknowledge, but it cannot be entirely denied as some try to). But like I say, this doesn't excuse bad behaviour. Just as failing to be stoic and reserved in relation to one's emotions is a sign of weakness of character. So too is a lack of self control regarding one's sexual urges. Blaming others for this lack of self-discipline and self-control (due to what they were wearing, or weren't wearing etc) is a cop out and only exacerbates how mentally weak one is.

I see women who I find attractive every day. I'm red blooded heterosexual male, with thousands of years of genetic programming behind me, who loves women. But doesn't mean I feel the need to look them up and down, ogle them or try and get them all into bed. Well, the fact I'm married also has something to do with that. Actually taking my marriage vows seriously. Not as a temporary arrangement for a couple of years, until something better comes along as self-serving popular culture seems to have evolved towards.

But even before I was married. Sure I find in general, women very attractive. I have raging hormones like everyone else. But as well as the obvious attraction, it was a mixture of respect, adoration, and cherishing amusement. If one loves women, why would you want to hurt them? I just don't get it. True, I was raised mainly by my mother who was a fairly firm hand - a relatively strict disciplinarian - who just wouldn't have stood for the types of attitudes I see in some blokes. A clip around the ear from her (or my maternal grandfather) would have been extremely forthcoming. But the disdaining shame I would have brought on myself and the family would act as a big self regulator also.

A fine discourse, however the idea that rape, mysoginy and a lack of respect for women only started in recent times because of a culture of hedonism and consumerism is frankly absurd.
 
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I paraphrased.
If it was an actual assault and Lee had to report a description to police and it was read out in court how could you possibly describe this as racist? How would you have better written Lee’s description?

The only poster who has mentioned colour is you.
 
If it was an actual assault and Lee had to report a description to police and it was read out in court how could you possibly describe this as racist? How would you have better written Lee’s description?

The only poster who has mentioned colour is you.
Maybe just take some time to reflect on what you're arguing.
 
Maybe just take some time to reflect on what you're arguing.
I’m arguing against making things up and perhaps bullying. Let’s label someone if they don’t like the post. I see that’s how you roll.
 
I’m arguing against making things up and perhaps bullying. Let’s label someone if they don’t like the post. I see that’s how you roll.
It is undeniably racism when violent characteristics are attributed to a group of people based on their race.

If you don't like the label because it's confronting, think about the reality.

A black person reading this sees that literally existing means people are going be scared they'll get stabbed.
 
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It is undeniably racism when violent characteristics are attributed to a group of people based on their race.

If you don't like the label because it's confronting, think about the reality.

A black person reading this sees that literally existing means people are going be scared they'll get stabbed.

It is undeniably racism when violent characteristics are attributed to a group of people based on their race.

If you don't like the label because it's confronting, think about the reality.

A black person reading this sees that literally existing means people are going be scared they'll get stabbed.
It is undeniably racism when violent characteristics are attributed to a group of people based on their race.

If you don't like the label because it's confronting, think about the reality.

A black person reading this sees that literally existing means people are going be scared they'll get stabbed.
Thanks for this post. I finally get where you are coming from.
I still disagree with labelling someone racist because of the post that Lee did. It’s how a police report would be written if it was an actual crime. That’s enough from me on this actual point.

I now need to walk my kids to school.
 
A fine discourse, however the idea that rape, mysoginy and a lack of respect for women only started in recent times because of a culture of hedonism and consumerism is frankly absurd.
Apologies if you are completely misinterpreting what I am saying (I actually made it clear early in my post that I acknowledged that it has always happened). I will respond properly when I have more time to write a detailed response.

In short though, I was actually in a roundabout way criticising the hypocritical so called “conservatives” in our Parliament who don’t actually live by the conservative values at all, that I was taught.
 
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Thanks for this post. I finally get where you are coming from.
I still disagree with labelling someone racist because of the post that Lee did. It’s how a police report would be written if it was an actual crime. That’s enough from me on this actual point.

I now need to walk my kids to school.
It will seem like semantics, but I did not call Lee racist. I said his post contained racism.

I don't know Lee. I don't believe Lee is racist.

But I think the post demonstrates Racism. Based on the context in which I read it.
 
But I think the post demonstrates Racism. Based on the context in which I read it.
- recent murder in the area
- fairly late (~11pm)
- Africans over-represented in assaults
- roaming in groups

These things combined to ring an alarm bell.

Would I have sensed danger if the groups were white? Probably less so, but yeah. Definitely.

Anyway, getting off topic.
 
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Thanks for this post. I finally get where you are coming from.
I still disagree with labelling someone racist because of the post that Lee did. It’s how a police report would be written if it was an actual crime. That’s enough from me on this actual point.

I now need to walk my kids to school.
if there was an actual assault and the perpetrators were being described to help find them, then yes, mention there skin colour, and other characteristics. There was no assault, no perps to find. Lee is clearly stating he thought there was a strong chance he would get stabbed because the people he saw walking the same streets as him at the same time were black. That is racism.
 
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Can someone be racist for being afraid of something? I don’t know - I find it a vexed question.

We have the opposite type of thought processes going on the feminism thread where women are afraid of being out late at night walking streets alone.

I don’t think we label that as sexist if a women is afraid a man might come out of the shadows and assault her. (And doesn’t expect to be assaulted by a female). Some are ashamed that women feel the need to cross the street and be wary if there is a suspicious looking man but again I don’t think this gets labelled as sexist

but we seem to think it racist if someone is concerned a group which is over represented in crime stats is present and we are scared.

I find it hard to hold these two thoughts as congruent.

They are both emotional responses that assume a potential negative outcome could occur.

I see it more as an unconscious emotional reflex but it does have real world consequences and lead to reinforce / racism.
See ‘Karen’ type responses and abuse of the stereotype.

I do think it useful to test why we have these reactions and if they are fair and reasonable and if we are giving everyone a fair go.
 
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