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Feminism

MD Jazz

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Feb 3, 2017
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Interesting article in The Age today by Jon Faine, all about how men block women, who are more qualified and likely far better candidates, getting pre-selection in the Liberal Party. The fact of the matter is that selection is not on the basis of merit.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...the-men-block-their-path-20210326-p57e8a.html

If people think this is not happening across a hell of a lot of workplaces then they are kidding themselves.

DS
Those workplaces don't have much of a successful future IMO. Like the liberal party if it refuses to address the sexist/mysogynistic policies and behaviours.

I think pay should be far more equal, would be a start if it went back to the relative levels of 50 years ago.

The reality is that this is systematic. You don't need to pay different rates of pay for the same job if you promote men more often, you don't need to pay different rates of pay when women have to leave jobs to avoid harassment - the men end up getting paid more because men get the higher paid positions. The whole question about women getting paid less than men for the same job is a diversion and those asking that question well know it.

I don't have all the answers, I would just like some acknowledgement of what is happening. Those who are claiming that there is already equality of opportunity are either incredibly thick, can't see what is staring them in the face or content with the advantages being male offers.

DS
If we went back 50 years we'd revert to dad at work mum at home.

If they could only work out how men could have babies it would all be better.
 

MD Jazz

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Feb 3, 2017
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Here is the formula used to quantify the "gender pay gap".

Oh9UnTl.jpg



I would hope any Year 7 student capable of independent thought could point out the shortcomings, providing appropriate examples. But instead we are expected to swallow this lie like pre-schoolers.

Sick of hearing the term and I dismiss it outright as a myth.
Interesting the responses to the above. You get attacked rather than addressing the contents of the post.
 
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HR

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Mar 20, 2013
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Interesting article in The Age today by Jon Faine, all about how men block women, who are more qualified and likely far better candidates, getting pre-selection in the Liberal Party. The fact of the matter is that selection is not on the basis of merit.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...the-men-block-their-path-20210326-p57e8a.html

If people think this is not happening across a hell of a lot of workplaces then they are kidding themselves.

DS
Hey DS, So apart from the "power jobs", ie those of influence and financial reward, what are the businesses where this blocking (who are more qualified and likely far better candidates) happens?
Now just to qualify my position, I do not have a drama with equality in any form. I do support equality.
 
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DavidSSS

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Dec 11, 2017
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Hey DS, So apart from the "power jobs", ie those of influence and financial reward, what are the businesses where this blocking (who are more qualified and likely far better candidates) happens?
Now just to qualify my position, I do not have a drama with equality in any form. I do support equality.

I don't have numbers, but I do remember seeing that under 40% of professors at universities are women, and that is despite the apparent oiver-success of women in education cited a number of times above.

I'm sure people can find more examples, clear minority of those running businesses are women and as far as I know it continues through middle management too.

I have provided Jon Faine's article which has examples of women being blocked trying to get pre-selection, where is the evidence that women have the same opportunities to gain promotion as men? The numbers suggest otherwise, not least the gender pay gap.

DS
 

Sintiger

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Aug 11, 2010
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That's a good reply, I certainly didn't see your unbiased view in the earlier post.
Not sure if bias is the right word HR but i think in this case my bias is actually against privilege. I really dislike attitudes of superiority because of what you or who you are ( “you” in the collective sense !!)
White male private school privilege still exists
 
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Panthera Tigris

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Apr 27, 2010
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Well you are in the wilderness then aren't you. On one hand you oppose The Labor party policies and then on the other think the Liberal party is alone in elitism.
Good luck with the coin toss between the greens and 1nation.
I'm proudly in the wilderness like Sin. Any thinking person, who looks at each issue on it's merits would find aspects of every party that they like and stuff that infuriates them. It's part of being a mature adult.

I take the approach that there is virtually no one in the world that is entirely right on every single issue, or conversely, wrong on every single issue. So for example, if we take the modern propensity towards so called 'cancel culture', we are refusing to listen to a wealth of knowledge and opinion from people, because they may have unfashionable, or problematic views on one particular issue - or even on only part of an issue. And society is for the poorer as a result.

The more I read, I tend to find I more closely aligning to concepts such as 'Blue Labourism', 'Red Toryism' and 'Green Conservatism' schools of thought, which I've been reading a few books on from the UK. It's not really centrism as such. In excruciatingly generalised terms it's a brand of being right of centre on social/cultural issues, security & defence, law & order, but being left of centre on economics and enviromental conservation. Of course there is nuance and degrees at how far one might be right or left of centre on particular issues, but again, that is part of being a thinking adult.

Which means there really is no party in Parliament I can identify with. There might be the odd individual candidate here and there, but they seem to be lone voices drowned out by their party machine.

By way of background, I was brought up on the cusp of working class to lower middle class. Certainly had no way of affording private schooling or anything like that. So was educated at the local public school we were zoned to, which suffered from quite a bit of dysfunction because of the demographic hand it had been dealt. So like Sin, I have nothing in common with the blue blood, silver spoon private school set. They are not really my tribe. And they would never consider me one of them. But conversely, I had a quite a traditionalist, conservative upbringing with a lot of old school values in terms of moral outlook of living humbly, mutual obligation to society, living with the duty and purpose to serve one's family etc. So found myself in many a heated debate (let's say spilling over to argument) with socially left leaning teachers who I felt were pushing a very dogmatic world view, which I refused to swallow unquestionably in it's entirety.
 
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HR

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Mar 20, 2013
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I don't have numbers, but I do remember seeing that under 40% of professors at universities are women, and that is despite the apparent oiver-success of women in education cited a number of times above.

I'm sure people can find more examples, clear minority of those running businesses are women and as far as I know it continues through middle management too.

I have provided Jon Faine's article which has examples of women being blocked trying to get pre-selection, where is the evidence that women have the same opportunities to gain promotion as men? The numbers suggest otherwise, not least the gender pay gap.

DS
Im only going to speak from personal experience here DS as I'm not to bothered by the "independent" research too much.
Currently at my workplace if you are a woman you stand a far greater chance of gaining employment than a male of equal qualifications. If you are Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander you have an even greater chance of employment at a lower level of qualification to your peers.
Both of these structures to employment are worthy of existence and do impact the workplace positively and negatively.
This is not unusual business in WA.
My feeling is that like in most things in the modern world, one cannot throw a blanket over the topic and call it proven.
 
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HR

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Mar 20, 2013
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Not sure if bias is the right word HR but i think in this case my bias is actually against privilege. I really dislike attitudes of superiority because of what you or who you are ( “you” in the collective sense !!)
White male private school privilege still exists
Yes it does, I think it always will.
Feminism does too. Not all feminism is true.
 

HR

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Mar 20, 2013
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I'm proudly in the wilderness like Sin. Any thinking person, who looks at each issue on it's merits would find aspects of every party that they like and stuff that infuriates them. It's part of being a mature adult.

I take the approach that there is virtually no one in the world that is entirely right on every single issue, or conversely, wrong on every single issue. So for example, if we take the modern propensity towards so called 'cancel culture', we are refusing to listen to a wealth of knowledge and opinion from people, because they may have unfashionable, or problematic views on one particular issue - or even on only part of an issue. And society is for the poorer as a result.

The more I read, I tend to find I more closely aligning to concepts such as 'Blue Labourism', 'Red Toryism' and 'Green Conservatism' schools of thought, which I've been reading a few books on from the UK. It's not really centrism as such. In excruciatingly generalised terms it's a brand of being right of centre on social/cultural issues, security & defence, law & order, but being left of centre on economics and enviromental conservation. Of course there is nuance and degrees at how far one might be right or left of centre on particular issues, but again, that is part of being a thinking adult.

Which means there really is no party in Parliament I can identify with. There might be the odd individual candidate here and there, but they seem to be lone voices drowned out by their party machine.

By way of background, I was brought up on the cusp of working class to lower middle class. Certainly had no way of affording private schooling or anything like that. So was educated at the local public school we were zoned to, which suffered from quite a bit of dysfunction because of the demographic hand it had been dealt. So like Sin, I have nothing in common with the blue blood, silver spoon private school set. They are not really my tribe. And they would never consider me one of them. But conversely, I had a quite a traditionalist, conservative upbringing with a lot of old school values in terms of moral outlook of living humbly, mutual obligation to society, living with the duty and purpose to serve one's family etc. So found myself in many a heated debate (let's say spilling over to argument) with socially left leaning teachers who I felt were pushing a very dogmatic world view, which I refused to swallow unquestionably in it's entirety.
We live a parallel life, PT. Apart from reading about the concepts of governance. I would never do that.
 

RoarEmotion

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Aug 20, 2005
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Im only going to speak from personal experience here DS as I'm not to bothered by the "independent" research too much.
Currently at my workplace if you are a woman you stand a far greater chance of gaining employment than a male of equal qualifications. If you are Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander you have an even greater chance of employment at a lower level of qualification to your peers.
Both of these structures to employment are worthy of existence and do impact the workplace positively and negatively.
This is not unusual business in WA.
My feeling is that like in most things in the modern world, one cannot throw a blanket over the topic and call it proven.
Same in my company (US HQ) and even more so iwhen I worked in the US. Has positives and negatives for sure.

Creates a very negative view at working level on those who do get promoted as there is always suspicion as to if it is warranted or not which completely then undermines that leaders power. so you create a cobra effect. This reinforces to me on focusing on process vs outcomes.
 

Brodders17

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Mar 21, 2008
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Same in my company (US HQ) and even more so iwhen I worked in the US. Has positives and negatives for sure.

Creates a very negative view at working level on those who do get promoted as there is always suspicion as to if it is warranted or not which completely then undermines that leaders power. so you create a cobra effect. This reinforces to me on focusing on process vs outcomes.
but no one questions whether the men who are in power are the best people for the job, or whether they were advantaged by being male, as is often the case.

using politics as an example, people argue against quotas because the best person should get the job, while we have people like Andrew Lamming, Stuart Robert and George Christensen in government, and Michael McCormack as the deputy PM.
 
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MD Jazz

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using politics as an example, people argue against quotas because the best person should get the job, while we have people like Andrew Lamming, Stuart Robert and George Christensen in government, and Michael McCormack as the deputy PM.
Hard to argue against when you put it like that. What a lineup hey?

Wonder if they'll have their own shows on Sky one day?
 

RoarEmotion

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but no one questions whether the men who are in power are the best people for the job, or whether they were advantaged by being male, as is often the case.

using politics as an example, people argue against quotas because the best person should get the job, while we have people like Andrew Lamming, Stuart Robert and George Christensen in government, and Michael McCormack as the deputy PM.
I question it often - 100% disagree that ‘no one’ questions it. I guess absolute comments are a red button trigger for me as they are very rarely correct. By your own statement you question it and provide examples. ‘Best person for job’ is a pretty subjective thing often determined In hindsight. (See dimma). I think a quota will long term actually undermine what you are trying to achieve but agree it can shake up the status quo tactically when there is clear bias in who is in the leadership positions that may make change impossible.

politics I don’t think as a useful comparison to a corporate structure as is such a different success measure that seems to often have almost nothing to do with the outcomes of the job. In a corporate structure you produce or you don’t and you get evaluated against that at least annually. Society probably judges political leaders that way very informally but the link to this and getting re-elected seems tenuous.
 

Panthera Tigris

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Apr 27, 2010
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We live a parallel life, PT. Apart from reading about the concepts of governance. I would never do that.
Guilty as charged HR. :)

I have developed into a bit of a book worm in recent times in a conscious effort to try and stay away from social media. Far more healthy for the brain, to really exercise it by deep reading and thought. And stay away from the toxicity percolating from social media, that really is a deranging force for the collective societal mind.

I was always one of those kids who couldn't really decide what I enjoyed most at school. Didn't seem to have the drive to be an expert at one particular thing, wanted to learn a bit about everything. So I read a huge range of things. Although, it's not all deep humourless stuff like concepts of governance. I did read the biography of Bruce Dickinson (the lead singer of Iron Maiden) recently. What a nice likeable fella with a good tale to tell. But I digress........ :)
 
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Panthera Tigris

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Apr 27, 2010
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using politics as an example, people argue against quotas because the best person should get the job, while we have people like Andrew Lamming, Stuart Robert and George Christensen in government, and Michael McCormack as the deputy PM.
Agree. Incompetent, narcissistic, sociopathic women should have just as much chance of getting into Parliament as their incompetent, narcissistic, sociopathic male counterparts. :)
 
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Brodders17

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Mar 21, 2008
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lucky the National MP in NSW who was sexting during parliament got selected on merit.
I would hate to see what his pre-selection competitors would have been doing.
 
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RoarEmotion

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lucky the National MP in NSW who was sexting during parliament got selected on merit.
I would hate to see what his pre-selection competitors would have been doing.
Not sure anyone can conflate ‘political popularity’ with merit again (if they already did).
 
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RoarEmotion

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So quotas for political parties shouldnt be an issue, as candidates arent chosen on merit anyway.
I couldn’t be more disillusioned with almost all political leadership so it would be hard to do worse with a different system to change it up.

I’d rather a different system altogether but that’s probably a separate board!
 
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