-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Feminism
- Thread starter Tigers of Old
- Start date
It is all about choice in the end. And as long as education opportunities are available to all and we keep on improving childcare/paid parental leave conditions that “gap” will narrow. Ultimately the ability to have children lends itself to having to make some difficult decisions around career/family. Couples make them all the time.
My experience growing up was the father worked and the mother raised the children. Mums sometimes had part time jobs, a lot went back to work when kids went to high school. It was what you saw almost everywhere around you. My kids now see all manner of examples of family existence. Stay at home dads. Both parents full time. Before care/aftercare. Single parents. Separated families. Same gender parents. There is no normal now. The stay at home Mum is the exception rather than the rule. Governments will be forced to cater for these family situations. I’m sure this means that gender pay gap will continue to narrow as governments look to give women the ability to be mothers and have careers.
The downside is parents spending less time with their kids and outsourcing their raising.
“Civilization begins with order, grows with liberty and dies with chaos.” - Will Durant
History is littered with the ruins of civilisations that thought they were eternal. The current manifestation of civilisation will be no different.
From the left political sphere we see the peevish animosity towards established social norms and active, wilful destruction of any established order (as opposed to tweaking existing outdated structures). And from the right side we see unadulterated hedonistic self interest driven by a culture of grotesque consumerism and decadence.
Kind of a strange non-aggression pact between the left and right political spheres. Reminds me of a weird reincarnation of the Nazi-Soviet nonaggression pact. A poisonously destructive collaboration, meaning perhaps we are on the cusp of coming out of Durant’s second phase (liberty & growth) and moving into his third phase (chaos & death). Perhaps we are already part way through the third phase.....
Last edited:
That's a fairly dry take DS. These boards have a very heavily male bias so to expect it to trend differently is a little naiive isn't it?
Again you go with absolute statements such as ‘all about men’ - it’s good trolling.
Will you answer any of the questions posed to you in response to your assertions? Do you think pay equality is a sensible goal? Do we need pay equality for every group? How do you think this plays out in the real world? Do you think women get paid less than men for the same work? Do you think we should somehow pay more for lower paid work and less for higher paid work to make male and female pay more equal - and how would you propose to do this?
maybe a better question is what do you think we could do (as a society) that would make the biggest difference.
clearly over the last 50 years things have improved a lot with better representation of many groups in previously ‘white male only’ professions. I think we should continue to put resources into equality of opportunity, helping people understand and Respect others and certainly into the early years of child raising.
Much like the tigers we should focus on a process vs an outcome to get an outcome. I’d say equal pay is just a dumb outcome albeit easy to measure. It just ignores individual choices and preferences.
Last edited:
funnily enough the articles doesnt give actual names, but reports the research shows "The businesses most consistent with gender equity policies closed the pay gap for their managerial staff by 4.4 percentage points between 2015 and 2020 while the gap for their non-managers fell by 2.3 percentage points.
But for the least consistent businesses firms, the gap for managers closed by just 1.4 percentage points while it actually increased for non-managerial staff by 0.03 percentage points.
If a business stopped gender pay gap audits from 2017, the gap widened by 5.1 percentage points."
from what i understand businesses arent advertising one rate for males and another for females, but when paying awards rates males tend to move up the award scales quicker, and in businesses where pay is negotiated, such as sales, men tend to be rewarded more.
I think pay should be far more equal, would be a start if it went back to the relative levels of 50 years ago.
The reality is that this is systematic. You don't need to pay different rates of pay for the same job if you promote men more often, you don't need to pay different rates of pay when women have to leave jobs to avoid harassment - the men end up getting paid more because men get the higher paid positions. The whole question about women getting paid less than men for the same job is a diversion and those asking that question well know it.
I don't have all the answers, I would just like some acknowledgement of what is happening. Those who are claiming that there is already equality of opportunity are either incredibly thick, can't see what is staring them in the face or content with the advantages being male offers.
DS
The reality is that this is systematic. You don't need to pay different rates of pay for the same job if you promote men more often, you don't need to pay different rates of pay when women have to leave jobs to avoid harassment - the men end up getting paid more because men get the higher paid positions. The whole question about women getting paid less than men for the same job is a diversion and those asking that question well know it.
I don't have all the answers, I would just like some acknowledgement of what is happening. Those who are claiming that there is already equality of opportunity are either incredibly thick, can't see what is staring them in the face or content with the advantages being male offers.
DS
These may well be factors in some workplaces. In my workplace men are discriminated against for promotion explicitly / women are positively discriminated for in how certain people’s careers are progressed. I only have visibility to one part of my company and I don’t work in HR to have a broader view. It would be good if there are any HR professionals here to learn something based on actual numbers and experiences vs the reasons you propose. the harassment one at work is invisible to me but is Clearly a problem, however I’d think the biggest factor by a mile would be caregiving decisions In the home and the consequence of that to pay and career progression.
calling other people thick if they don’t agree with your view of the world I don’t think is an effective way to make an argument. But carry on. I think It’s important to be curious as to why people think another way as is the best way to improve your own understanding.
I certainly don’t think there is full equality of opportunity as clearly there is plenty of misogynistic behaviour matched with men in powerful positions still out there. I think we just we need to continue to move in that direction and I have seen a large change in attitudes in my workplace when I reflect back to stuff that went on when I started work vs now.
With that said the percentage of women (and even men) who say they have been sexually harassed or intimidated was a bit of an eye opener to me and says we still have a long way to go. I really am blown away by the percentages in there and was worse than I thought. E.g. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...t-of-women-have-experienced-sexual-harassment
the article says 9% of female and 5% of males who were harassed changed jobs because of this.
Here is the formula used to quantify the "gender pay gap".
www.wgea.gov.au
I would hope any Year 7 student capable of independent thought could point out the shortcomings, providing appropriate examples. But instead we are expected to swallow this lie like pre-schoolers.
Sick of hearing the term and I dismiss it outright as a myth.
Gender pay gap data | WGEA
I would hope any Year 7 student capable of independent thought could point out the shortcomings, providing appropriate examples. But instead we are expected to swallow this lie like pre-schoolers.
Sick of hearing the term and I dismiss it outright as a myth.
The data produced by the ABS simply states a fact, that there is a gender pay gap in that the average salary paid to a woman in Australia is less than the average salary paid to a man. The reasons for it and what, if anything, should be done about it is what the debate is about
I am not in favour of quotas. I worked for an American company years ago that practiced “positive discrimination” and I don’t believe it works. The key to providing a more even playing field is through access to opportunity, better child care, more flexible working arrangements etc, to give women more opportunity to stay in the workforce. However anyone who doesn’t think that the Senior management and Boards of our bigger companies aren’t dominated through the old boys club of white men from private schools is kidding themselves. I’ve felt the sting of not being in that club myself because of where I came from and what school I went to. It’s exists and is still alive and well in our society ( that club is also within the liberal Party. )
“Class” and background still matter in our society and women don’t rank with men in that part of our business landscape.
I am not in favour of quotas. I worked for an American company years ago that practiced “positive discrimination” and I don’t believe it works. The key to providing a more even playing field is through access to opportunity, better child care, more flexible working arrangements etc, to give women more opportunity to stay in the workforce. However anyone who doesn’t think that the Senior management and Boards of our bigger companies aren’t dominated through the old boys club of white men from private schools is kidding themselves. I’ve felt the sting of not being in that club myself because of where I came from and what school I went to. It’s exists and is still alive and well in our society ( that club is also within the liberal Party. )
“Class” and background still matter in our society and women don’t rank with men in that part of our business landscape.
Last edited:
Well you are in the wilderness then aren't you. On one hand you oppose The Labor party policies and then on the other think the Liberal party is alone in elitism.
Good luck with the coin toss between the greens and 1nation.
That's a good reply, I certainly didn't see your unbiased view in the earlier post.
I raised a daughter as a single dad for much of her childhood, and held down a full-time job at the same time.
Here is the formula used to quantify the "gender pay gap".
Gender pay gap data | WGEA
I would hope any Year 7 student capable of independent thought could point out the shortcomings, providing appropriate examples. But instead we are expected to swallow this lie like pre-schoolers.
Sick of hearing the term and I dismiss it outright as a myth.
I thought you liked stats, or do you dislike them when they don't agree with pre-existing beliefs?
DS
Interesting article in The Age today by Jon Faine, all about how men block women, who are more qualified and likely far better candidates, getting pre-selection in the Liberal Party. The fact of the matter is that selection is not on the basis of merit.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...the-men-block-their-path-20210326-p57e8a.html
If people think this is not happening across a hell of a lot of workplaces then they are kidding themselves.
DS
https://www.theage.com.au/national/...the-men-block-their-path-20210326-p57e8a.html
If people think this is not happening across a hell of a lot of workplaces then they are kidding themselves.
DS
