2021 Draft Thread | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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2021 Draft Thread

bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
There’s a difference between having opinions and debating this and that v anyone (and I mean anyone) taking it so seriously to the point of thinking they’re an actual recruiter for Richmond and/or recruiting and making decisions on behalf of all of PRE and getting all worked up as a result. Relax. It’s just a bit of fun.

As others have stated, we’re all just a bunch of internet nerds with only a pifteenth of knowledge and information on these kids compared to what the genuine experts in club land have. In many cases those guys have been following these kids, know their families etc since they were 12. They have strategic priorities and reasonings that for the better part, none of us will never ever really be privy too.

Otherwise, this is playland so no need to be over invested. We’re all just observers to things, having fun by casting opinions and debate and the odd inside tidbit from way back in the bleachers - which is a better place to be anyway coz you can go and buy a hot dog and beer from there. Speaking of which…lunchtime. Chicken schnitzel wrap I’m thinking.
I'm just catching up with these threads but I'm unsure if I should offer up any more suggestions, no Redford, as I've mentioned numerous times I'm not the oracle or anything like that, I've tried to start a thread to cover my arse from accusations of making stuff up.

https://www.puntroadend.com/threads/2014-hindsight-draft.50617/page-12

When Spook flamed me about trading a first rounder it was the final straw because most on here forced me into exile about mentioning it in the first place, concluding it was reckless. So I figured I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. It's about respect, not digging up someone's old posts and cherry picking quotes to suit some sort of agenda. This *smile* is for trolls & given Spook & Leysy are respected posters it became apparent that civil discussion is becoming a thing of the past.

I'll also add that I spend hundreds of hours putting this material together & every year I cop abuse, for one reason or another. That's it in a nutshell, I'm the one who puts his judgement on the line with top 50 lists, not the guys throwing poison darts on a regular basis. So you tell me? Should I bother? Particularly If all I get is some sulky synopsis about being a know-it-all.

P.S. Leysy, you chimed in at the wrong time however you should know better than to judge a tall after 2 years in the system..

P.S. Spook, you are one of the guys I respect most here & to have you join the mob was a deal breaker, particularly given you omitted the fact my suggested first round trade was with a view to getting mileage out of MRJ and our F&S situation.

Anyhow, carry on folks, I might just cool it this year & let you guys banter amongst yourselves.
 
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daniel30

Tiger Superstar
Jun 14, 2010
2,391
2,916
I'm just catching up with these threads but I'm unsure if I should offer up any more suggestions, no Redford, as I've mentioned numerous times I'm not the oracle or anything like that, I've tried to start a thread to cover my arse from accusations of making stuff up.

https://www.puntroadend.com/threads/2014-hindsight-draft.50617/page-12

When Spook flamed me about trading a first rounder it was the final straw because most on here forced me into exile about mentioning it in the first place, concluding it was reckless. So I figured I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. It's about respect, not digging up someone's old posts and cherry picking quotes to suit some sort of agenda. This *smile* is for trolls & given Spook & Leysy are respected posters it became apparent that civil discussion is becoming a thing of the past.

I'll also add that I spend hundreds of hours putting this material together & every year I cop abuse, for one reason or another. That's it in a nutshell, I'm the one who puts his judgement on the line with top 50 lists, not the guys throwing poison darts on a regular basis. So you tell me? Should I bother? Particularly If all I get is some sulky synopsis about being a know-it-all.

P.S. Leysy, you chimed in at the wrong time however you should know better than to judge a tall after 2 years in the system..

P.S. Spook, you are one of the guys I respect most here & to have you join the mob was a deal breaker, particularly given you omitted the fact my suggested first round trade was with a view to getting mileage out of MRJ and our F&S situation.

Anyhow, carry on folks, I might just cool it this year & let you guys banter amongst yourselves.
Mate would love your knowledge about the draft please contribute very informative.
 
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Cooper O'Reilly

Tiger Matchwinner
Mar 5, 2021
624
1,782
I think that everyone needs to respect others points of view, have healthy debate without making it personal and not take it as a personal attack when someone disagrees with you.

That’s what PRE is all about isn’t it?
 
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bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
I think that everyone needs to respect others points of view, have healthy debate without making it personal and not take it as a personal attack when someone disagrees with you.

That’s what PRE is all about isn’t it?
Precisely, making me out to be a delusional wannabe has been the theme for 2021, not just from the Redford backhander above but half a dozen other posters who have joined in on the party. There was a time when people spoke with a bit more restraint but I detect a fair degree of spite, laced with a touch of ego & quite frankly, I'm not up for another round of insults & belittling. This dates back to the Corey Ellis draft so before people start accusing me of being a snowflake, understand that I've copped hate mail, constant barbs about being a keyboard warrior & frequent criticism for daring to question the recruiting decisions being made. You see, if I do another year it will be hours of work, I'll do the list, Clarke will pick someone different & then I'll be portrayed as a villain in some grand act of betrayal against the RFC. Happens every year, like clockwork, unless of course we end up with same players which has happened from time to time. I also understand that we've won three premierships & fair play to the powers that be, the mistakes aren't as visible as they were during our lean spell. Anyhow, I'll leave it there for now, have a good day & let's hope we nail our picks in 2022.
 
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Willo

Tiger Legend
Oct 13, 2007
18,255
6,130
Aldinga Beach
Precisely, making me out to be a delusional wannabe has been the theme for 2021, not just from the Redford backhander above but half a dozen other posters who have joined in on the party. There was a time when people spoke with a bit more restraint but I detect a fair degree of spite, laced with a touch of ego & quite frankly, I'm not up for another round of insults & belittling. This dates back to the Corey Ellis draft so before people start accusing me of being a snowflake, understand that I've copped hate mail, constant barbs about being a keyboard warrior & frequent criticism for daring to question the recruiting decisions being made. You see, if I do another year it will be hours of work, I'll do the list, Clarke will pick someone different & then I'll be portrayed as a villain in some grand act of betrayal against the RFC. Happens every year, like clockwork, unless of course we end up with same players which has happened from time to time. I also understand that we've won three premierships & fair play to the powers that be, the mistakes aren't as visible as they were during our lean spell. Anyhow, I'll leave it there for now, have a good day & let's hope we nail our picks in 2022.
Stick with it Bully,, I thoroughly enjoy your input and appreciate the time and effort you put in to it all.
As I’m sure many others do as well.
 
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richards42

making the crowd roar
Sep 15, 2005
1,014
802
Gold Coast
Love your input mate and thanks for all your time you put in. It’s informative to hear about the kids 90% of us don’t get to see. Hopefully you get the respect you deserve and if people disagree with you don’t take it too personally.
 
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daniel30

Tiger Superstar
Jun 14, 2010
2,391
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Once again you do a great job bullus hit. My advice for you no matter who you recommend clubs do opposite draft night no brainer , can’t understand why people take it personal you give your opinions and knowledge the rest is up to the recruiter's.
 
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bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
Once again you do a great job bullus hit. My advice for you no matter who you recommend clubs do opposite draft night no brainer , can’t understand why people take it personal you give your opinions and knowledge the rest is up to the recruiter's.
Well I'm hoping the likes of Redford & co. step up this year and do comprehensive lists like I have done for 15 years, that's the biggest problem as I see it, big mouths & big egos but little action. These guys never stick their necks out & make definitive calls, rather they hide behind the shadows and name drop to make themselves out to be gurus. They then go and dig up my stuff hoping for a gotcha moment to further enhance their reputations. I wouldn't expect any apologies either, that's not their style, too busy pumping up their own tyres.
 
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TigerPort

Tiger Champion
Jun 29, 2006
2,516
2,733
NSW
Well I'm hoping the likes of Redford & co. step up this year and do comprehensive lists like I have done for 15 years, that's the biggest problem as I see it, big mouths & big egos but little action. These guys never stick their necks out & make definitive calls, rather they hide behind the shadows and name drop to make themselves out to be gurus. They then go and dig up my stuff hoping for a gotcha moment to further enhance their reputations. I wouldn't expect any apologies either, that's not their style, too busy pumping up their own tyres.

I for one live interstate from Victoria and do not have the knowledge background on how the junior program works. So I rely on the good work of others that can offer an opinion on who to look out for. These opinions, whilst maybe not in line with how the club actually picks, are very much appreciated.

So thank you for your input over the past years and if you ever feel up to offering your opinion again then I, we, will be richer for your work
 
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bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
I for one live interstate from Victoria and do not have the knowledge background on how the junior program works. So I rely on the good work of others that can offer an opinion on who to look out for. These opinions, whilst maybe not in line with how the club actually picks, are very much appreciated.

So thank you for your input over the past years and if you ever feel up to offering your opinion again then I, we, will be richer for your work
Cheers mate, I have always enjoyed the process up until recently but even in my attempts to document everything (to cover myself from dirt diggers) this has been used as some sort of portrayal of a wannabe recruiter, which is ironic given I'm the one ruffling the feathers & going against the grain of group think. This is probably where we're at with PRE at the moment, somewhat of an echo chamber & frequent back slapping but no one with the balls to put up a complete ranking & put their own reputation on the line. With 15 years of draft data I would have thought we could have some good discussion, in fact 10 years ago there was utmost respect for those contributing, now it's a case of points scoring and shooting the messenger. This doesn't apply to everyone of course, posters like Scoop are thoughtful and respectful, particularly with mistakes that we've both made along the journey. Others however have begun the process of character assassination and cheap shots. So there really is only one option from here, put up or shut up, I'm not going in alone this year, it's just not worth the time and effort when the ending always ends up the same.
 

Tigertough1974

Tiger Champion
Oct 1, 2013
2,845
916
Do it for yourself Bully, not others, clearly you enjoy the analysis etc, haters gonna hate....

I love the insight from you and a some others, i dont necessarily even consider it 100% RFC info, kids like Allen WCE i remember lots of comments, it actually gives context and understanding not just the year of the draft but as you see them progressing, and again, not just for RFC.

We all love Footy and RFC, so whilst its great to hone in on RFC picks, the large information and discussions mean you can follow other players with some insight into their junior journey.

Brilliant stuff guys, play the ball and not the man.
 
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Redford

Tiger Legend
Dec 18, 2002
34,360
26,207
Tel Aviv
number of us have ignored your
Well I'm hoping the likes of Redford & co. step up this year and do comprehensive lists like I have done for 15 years, that's the biggest problem as I see it, big mouths & big egos but little action. These guys never stick their necks out & make definitive calls, rather they hide behind the shadows and name drop to make themselves out to be gurus. They then go and dig up my stuff hoping for a gotcha moment to further enhance their reputations. I wouldn't expect any apologies either, that's not their style, too busy pumping up their own tyres.
Ok. That's enough.

A number of us have just politely ignored your incessant whining, bizzare "playing the victim" posts and such the last few days, but quite frankly, you are starting to sound unhinged.

I didn't know your posting from a bar of soap prior to last year so I don't know the history behind all of your problems with other posters over the years, who's digging up what stuff, "gotcha" moments or whatever and quite frankly I don't care. But it seems to be something that you like to bring up a LOT. You did the same right from the start last year and you're doing it again.

Do your "comprehensive lists". Post whatever you like ! doesn't worry me one iota and I'm sure it won't bother others. But for the love of God, stop whinging like you think people on PRE don't show you enough respect or something. Half the stuff I posted last year people didn't agree with (jbdumb03 will say its more). I reckon its great. That's forum life.

And as for "Reputations" ? "egos" ? Me and others having to "step it up". What ??? Dude, its just an internet site with opinions and banter that shouldn't be taken too seriously. There's people with different levels of involvement and investment....different opinions. ...etc. Some are like you that like to get "comprehensive" others just go to games, watch a lot of recorded games or know people, players or families and then just post their observations, likes, dislikes. Whatever, who cares ! Its a broad church.

Move on to the 2022 thread and just post your Draft content and get going. I look forward to it like I look forward to everyone else's contributions.

Note: do not send me any strange, rambling PM's again this year either. Thanks.
 
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spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
21,912
26,417
Melbourne
Bullus, I looked back to see what I'd done to offend you, and all I did was ask how you were taking Johnson with pick 17 last year in your hypothetical, when you wouldn't have had pick 17 due to your hypothetical trades in previous years. I said that was having your cake and eating it and apparently that's me joining a pile-on. I said at the time I wasn't having a go at you and you liked that post, so I figured you accepted that. To learn now that you consider me (and others) to have bullied you off the forum is frankly disappointing.

As Reds says, you're coming across as precious, and accusing others as being ego-driven in this is kind of ironic when it's pretty clear yours is the one most invested here. I enjoy your contributions and appreciate you do a lot of research but we all have our views and we all challenge each other to back up our claims. As far as I can see no one has attacked you personally, so don't take it personally. A free and frank exchange of ideas is not personal.

Continue to post, don't continue to post, it's up to you. But you're no persecuted victim and you should stop smearing others to claim that you are. (Yes, I consider being called a bully a smear.)

Hopefully we can all move on. If you decide to continue, I look forward to reading your thoughts. If not, all the best.
 
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bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
number of us have ignored your

Ok. That's enough.

A number of us have just politely ignored your incessant whining, bizzare "playing the victim" posts and such the last few days, but quite frankly, you are starting to sound unhinged.

I didn't know your posting from a bar of soap prior to last year so I don't know the history behind all of your problems with other posters over the years, who's digging up what stuff, "gotcha" moments or whatever and quite frankly I don't care. But it seems to be something that you like to bring up a LOT. You did the same right from the start last year and you're doing it again.

Do your "comprehensive lists". Post whatever you like ! doesn't worry me one iota and I'm sure it won't bother others. But for the love of God, stop whinging like you think people on PRE don't show you enough respect or something. Half the stuff I posted last year people didn't agree with (jbdumb03 will say its more). I reckon its great. That's forum life.

And as for "Reputations" ? "egos" ? Me and others having to "step it up". What ??? Dude, its just an internet site with opinions and banter that shouldn't be taken too seriously. There's people with different levels of involvement and investment....different opinions. ...etc. Some are like you that like to get "comprehensive" others just go to games, watch a lot of recorded games or know people, players or families and then just post their observations, likes, dislikes. Whatever, who cares ! Its a broad church.

Move on to the 2022 thread and just post your Draft content and get going. I look forward to it like I look forward to everyone else's contributions.

Note: do not send me any strange, rambling PM's again this year either. Thanks.
It's just a website where people like yourself cannot even clear the air like a decent human being, look at P.S, which was in response to you badgering me about TAC stats. Your emotional intelligence is sorely lacking, you accuse me consistently of being a try hard (just look at the above post) and the hubris is suffocating. The fact I am the only one here willing to put the hours in running the phantom draft thread says it all really. All give & no take, not even the respect to produce any similar material and put your name & judgement on the line. Coward with a big ego, summed up perfectly in a one post.
 

bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
Bullus, I looked back to see what I'd done to offend you, and all I did was ask how you were taking Johnson with pick 17 last year in your hypothetical, when you wouldn't have had pick 17 due to your hypothetical trades in previous years. I said that was having your cake and eating it and apparently that's me joining a pile-on. I said at the time I wasn't having a go at you and you liked that post, so I figured you accepted that. To learn now that you consider me (and others) to have bullied you off the forum is frankly disappointing.

As Reds says, you're coming across as precious, and accusing others as being ego-driven in this is kind of ironic when it's pretty clear yours is the one most invested here. I enjoy your contributions and appreciate you do a lot of research but we all have our views and we all challenge each other to back up our claims. As far as I can see no one has attacked you personally, so don't take it personally. A free and frank exchange of ideas is not personal.

Continue to post, don't continue to post, it's up to you. But you're no persecuted victim and you should stop smearing others to claim that you are. (Yes, I consider being called a bully a smear.)

Hopefully we can all move on. If you decide to continue, I look forward to reading your thoughts. If not, all the best.
At least your response was a bit more dignified, send the memo to Redford. But in all honesty, when someone spends the time doing all this extra stuff, comes back from a long break, only to cop a repeat performance, it gets tiresome. I don't like people digging up my posts & being misquoted, the inference being I'm a sneak in a game of one upsmanship, when the reality is everything I put forward is timestamped & fully documented. This has now been turned into me being a try hard recruiter in some fantasy world, which reeks of double standards given it was done to avoid accusations of 'having my cake & eating it'.

Anyhow, carry on folks, I can move on from this, quite easily, it just won't involve all the extra graft, and that's my point, not one of you are prepared to fill the void & put out rankings yourself so I guess that's the final curtain call for this type of experiment on PRE, it was fun for awhile & thanks to all those who have offered support. I will still take PMs for those who have collaborated with me over the years, big shout out to previous posters like Gus, Phantom, Scoop and the interstate watchers, the lists were always a culmination of everyone's input, yours too Spook as I know you generally have a good eye.

I also think the recent success has made this gig is too much of a hot potato, understandably given the all benchmarks have been met in the form of 3 premiership trophies. Hopefully we're in good hands, time will tell.
 
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17

Tiger Superstar
Feb 28, 2008
1,869
1,095
OK everyone, time to tone it down or this conversation will just deteriorate into an abyss.

I have followed bulliss_hit posts for donkey's years.

His pre-draft analysis is painstakingly researched and eleqently presented in great detail, and greedily devoured by those of us looking for insights - as is excellent analysis by other avid U18 (and below) watchers.

So whilst reasonable debate over bulliss' views is fine and welcomed, I can totally understand his annoyance when that "debate" morphs into overly aggressive nit-picking criticism from a few posters who appear to be blithely stirring the pot rather than genuinely adding to the debate.

And yes, without wanting to come over like a bulliss groupie, I reckon for a guy that puts in as much pre (and post) draft work as he does, civil discourse and basic respect for that effort should be the minimum.

bulliss, pretty much every week now, we see AFL clubs reporting that so-and-so indigenous or ethnic player has been vilified for their skin colour or beliefs.
Like road accidents, despite the vast majority of people doing the right thing, there will always be a few idiots on the road, and a few idiots on social media.
And a few posters on fan blogs that can't quite keep it civil.

For the sake of the vast majority of us that really appreciate your posts and analysis, please don't be put off by the very small minorty.
 
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spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
21,912
26,417
Melbourne
At least your response was a bit more dignified, send the memo to Redford. But in all honesty, when someone spends the time doing all this extra stuff, comes back from a long break, only to cop a repeat performance, it gets tiresome. I don't like people digging up my posts & being misquoted, the inference being I'm a sneak in a game of one upsmanship, when the reality is everything I put forward is timestamped & fully documented. This has now been turned into me being a try hard recruiter in some fantasy world, which reeks of double standards given it was done to avoid accusations of 'having my cake & eating it'.

Anyhow, carry on folks, I can move on from this, quite easily, it just won't involve all the extra graft, and that's my point, not one of you are prepared to fill the void & put out rankings yourself so I guess that's the final curtain call for this type of experiment on PRE, it was fun for awhile & thanks to all those who have offered support. I will still take PMs for those who have collaborated with me over the years, big shout out to previous posters like Gus, Phantom, Scoop and the interstate watchers, the lists were always a culmination of everyone's input, yours too Spook as I know you generally have a good eye.

I also think the recent success has made this gig is too much of a hot potato, understandably given the all benchmarks have been met in the form of 3 premiership trophies. Hopefully we're in good hands, time will tell.
I didn't misquote you or take you out of context or accuse you of anything of the sort. You had stated that you would have traded your 2019 first-rounder to get two picks to take Williams and Bytel in 2018. You then said you would have traded out of 2020 to get back into 2019. So you wouldn't have had pick 17 in 2021, which we obtained at the 2020 draft by trading the 2020 first-round pick you'd already traded in your hypothetical to get Bytel and Williams. So you couldn't have Johnson as well. That is all fact. If anything I just typed is wrong, I asked you at the time to explain how, which you didn't. Because it wasn't. You said I didn't credit you with the player you would have picked in 2019, but as far as I can tell you didn't nominate anyone, so it's a bit tough to credit you with Player X. I said you had that 2019 pick, just that you couldn't have Johnson.

If you put your opinions out there as strongly as you do - especially if you're going to compile threads that are basically "this is what I would have done" - you have to expect them to be questioned at times. And you have to have a thicker skin than claiming persecution when they are. Some people are blunter than others. Be the duck's back. It's a forum. Opinions fly back and forth and none of it should be taken too seriously.

As to your rankings, while I appreciate you put a lot of time into them, there is no void if you don't. No one asks or expects you to produce them, you've done that off your own bat. Some, as they've said, appreciate them because they don't get to see the kids. Others, who do watch the kids to greater or lesser extents, take them as no more or less than just another opinion like we all have. There are plenty of rankings put out by other pundits and they are all opinion, and none of them with the exception of Twomey's late mail turn out to be all that accurate.

(I rose to allybabe's bait in 2010 and posted my own top-75, so I understand a lot goes into compiling rankings. I'll never do it again because I don't have the depth of knowledge. I don't go to under-18s games. I don't know the kids or their families or circumstances. My opinions are all eye-based, from the vision available. You like to dig into analytics and testing more, that's fine. But I'd bet you don't go to under-18 games either, or at least not many.)

As you say, there are many fine contributors to draft threads. It's one of the things that makes PRE what it is. But we're all just arseholes with opinions. Some, like Reds and Bengal and Kong, know people and are told stuff and/or are even involved with under-18 clubs. Some like Scoop have other contacts and go to a few under-18s games. Some like me don't know anyone and back our eye.

You are not the guru. Neither am I, neither is Reds, neither is Scoop. None of us are. But we all have something to add. How others take it is not for us to worry about. I didn't give a *smile* last year when Kong bagged my judgement - he said there were only seven good players in what has turned out to be one of the deepest drafts in history, so what would he know! Scoop and I are famous for having similar usernames and vastly different player preferences. We disagree all the time, often vigorously, but neither of us takes it personally. Redders and Leysy challenge everyone to back up their calls and aren't shy if they disagree or find a flaw in your logic.

I think all that is part of what makes this a great forum. If you don't, no one is forcing you to be here. No one is persecuting you either. As Redders and I have both said, if you stay, great, we'll read your thoughts with interest. And if and when we have a problem with your reasoning, we'll probably continue to say so. It would be a boring forum otherwise.
 
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