An Enormous Decision for Indigenous Australians.

[TigerGoneNorth]

A haven for bullies.

 

[skybeau]

Sorry if this has been answered in this thread...but can someone tell me what the implications of all this is? I mean, what can the Aborigines do now that they have land rights to Perth? Can they do anything like force people out of their homes cos they're living on some sacred ground or something?

Essentially, I guess I'm asking if Aborigines have to potential to use this for potentially destructive purposes (terrible word, I know...can't think of a better one, sorry) or is it just in name only?

Sorry for the basic q...I should take more interest in current affairs, but it all just seems a little silly sometimes...

 

[Chelsea]

Gee, it's only taken 5 pages for a request to stop the personal insults. :

 

[Rosy]

Gee, it's only taken 5 pages for a request to stop the personal insults. :

I hadn't been reading the thread, and still haven't read most of it. If it concerned you why didn't you use the report to moderator button to help us out rather than chipping in with sarcastic comments?

 

[Chelsea]

Rosy.. Considering the insults started on Page 1, and you have posted on pages 1, 2, and 3. maybe that's when you should have intervened. I won't be using any 'report to moderator' button. I still say it's a pretty poor show, when one can't make a one line response to another poster, (and no insults or rude remarks were used) without receiving the abusive tirade, and bullying tactics from some obvious left-wing posters on this Forum. It doesn't encourage others to come and air their views here... if they are a little 'thin-skinned'.

 

[Rosy]

Rosy.. Considering the insults started on Page 1, and you have posted on pages 1, 2, and 3. maybe that's when you should have intervened.

If it doesn't bother you enough to report it don't go telling me what I should be doing. This kind of thread bores me and I rarely read them closely because of the way anythign slightly political gets personal and full of quotes I can't be bothered with. Although you've obviously gone to great trouble to look it up the pages I've posted on aren't an indication of how much notice I've taken of what's been said. The abuse and insults work both ways though.

 

[an_oxford_man]

Gypsy Jazz.... Ten 'Brownie points' to you for 'bagging' the Libs on here. I bet you feel better now? :hihi I've never said that I was a Lib. I could be a Greenie, or a Democrat, who is happy with the P.M. of the day, for all you know. Maybe you should stick to your studies or whatever you do, and don't dabble in politics until you 'grow up'.

I wasn't just bagging the libs on the forum, Chelsea. I was bagging all Liberals. My xenophobic mates included.


For anyone interested about where they lie on the "political compass", check this out. Kills 10 minutes... I think there is a left wing bias though. My liberal friends have proven to be a lot further to the left than expected. Interested to hear where you end up, Puddles.

I thought it was a bit of fun.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

[Curtiger]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I got -4.13, -4.67. Kinda around the Dalai Lama and Ghandi.

 

[Jools]

That was interesting. I seemed to end up similar to Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama, libertarian left.

 

[Rosy]

I hope that's your last word Liverpool. :rubhead We don't need your advice on when to lock a thread or not thanks. Most people who respect the values of this site would just heed the request to quit the slagging and get back on topic.

Complaints belong on the Feedback board so if you want to keep having a whinge please do it there.

 

[an_oxford_man]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I got -4.13, -4.67. Kinda around the Dalai Lama and Ghandi.

That was interesting. I seemed to end up similar to Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama, libertarian left.

Yeah, everyone seems to end up down there! Libertarian left. It's just a matter of how extreme. Even the most conservative of people tend to end up around the middle.

 

[Liverpool]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I got -4.13, -4.67. Kinda around the Dalai Lama and Ghandi.

That was interesting. I seemed to end up similar to Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama, libertarian left.

Yeah, everyone seems to end up down there! Libertarian left. It's just a matter of how extreme. Even the most conservative of people tend to end up around the middle.

Gypsy,
I had a crack at your test:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -0.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.72

Does that mean I have a very balanced view, seeing that I am pretty close to the middle?

 

[lefty]

Hello again,

way back at the start of this thread I asked Mr Howard to say 'sorry.'   I have reading through this thread for a week or two, just letting it develop and I am so irritated at how it becomes so nit picky, anecdotal and personal.

On the personal front I have to admit in  my post I personally attacked Howard, using an acronym starting with the letter N and ending with an I and being something to do with a political movement in Germany in the 1920s, 30s and 40s.

So I can't bag everyone for getting personal, but it is amazing how this topic polarises people.

I really think John Howard should say 'Sorry' and I will try to explain why.

To me the word 'sorry' means that you feel sorrow.  You feel sorrow for something that has happened, in this case to a people  or a race.  It means that you accept  a set of facts or happenings and you feel badly for those at the rough end of it.

Therefore it is OK to say sorry.  It doens't mean that you personally caused these events to happen or that you necessarily feel guilt, but you feel the need to express sympathy for those who are the victims.

Therefore it is a nonsense that if our Prime Minister says 'sorry' that he is personally accepting responsiblity for what happened to the indigenous Australians.  It doesn't logically follow that the remaining Aboriginal population will rise up and sue the Govt or individuals and take back their land.  This argument is simply ridiculous.

It does mean though, that finally the country accepts that awful crimes were committed against the first Australians.  It means that we have to accept that over the past 200 or so years that Europeans have dispossessed the original inhabitants of this nation of their land, their languages, their customs, their lives and their histories.

It means that the hidden history of this country can be brought into the open.

Saying sorry is a point where we can move on.  Accept the wrongdoings of the past and try  for meaningful reconciliation.  Until this country, through its political leaders expresses sorrow and acknowledges the past, then we will continue to have these pointless and circular arguments.

We will be a lesser people until we accept what has happened.

Like it or not we live in a country that was taken from its original people by force, not by law.  The blood  of the Aboriginal people can be sensed right throughout our country.  Like it or not many of us have benefitted from these crimes.  We own land once owned by people who never legally gave it up.  We rent homes or work in factories or take our holidays on soil once sacred to another people.

As a nation we have grown from pretty horrid, foreign conditions for the first settlers.  But we have clambered to where we are now over the dead bodies of tens upon thousands of people who were murdered, slowly poisoned, enslaved, humiliated, driven from their land and culture to the point of extinction.

It is time to say 'Sorry'.

 

[lefty]

I know that Keating wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but this is one of the great political speeches in Australian History, in my humble opinion.

He takes the idea of guilt further than some, but the idea of collective responsibility is one we need to grapple with.



http://apology.west.net.au/redfern.html

 

[lefty]

Give me a recent example of a non-aboriginal person dying in similar circumstances to Mulrunji Doomadgee. No? Didn't think so.

So, the average life indicators for an aboriginal person today in Australia are the same as those for the average non-aboriginal person? Care to elaborate?

Its a fact there are about 10 times the amount of white people die in custody its just makes the media when its an aboriginal person.
Trust me i've worked in aboriginal communities up in the territory.I don't have racist views in fact I've got a lot of aboriginal friends. I just deal in facts.
I too feel sorry for the past injustices, but thats what they are past. In todays society we make sure aboriginal can go to uni,have access to docters recieve grants and so on so they can achieve some kind of lifestyle the rest of us enjoy.
In a lot of communities housing is built at no cost money wise or labour wise. This makes some people have no respect for the house they recieve hence they are usually smashed up in no time. The young boys should be given apprenticeships to help build these houses, giving them a job and a sense of pride.
In most topend and west australian communities boredom is the killer. We barge in all there food, therefore giving them nothing to do during the day.We don't give them jobs and with no need to hunt a life of dope,sniffing, and alcohol and and violance are the norm.
We don;t hear much down here  but the problems in the communities are enormous.
I had a mate(policeman) up there and he was having a lot of trouble with the kids in the black community. He loved his footy, so he called up Nicky Winmar who was playing footy in Darwin at the time to come and have a yarn to the kids. From that day on all the kids looked up to him and he had a lot less trouble with the kids.
I don;t think we have to take sides, I think we should try to give them jobs in there own areas especially and i think their pride and respect for themselves will grow massively.

Richards42,
Thanks for your contribution to this thread.....good to read a fair-dinkum post, looking at FACTS  :clap, instead of the usual "anti Liverpool" garbage I've had to endure so far!  :-X

Like you've stated in your posts....boredom, and a lack of pride/respect for others and even themselves, are major problems for Aborigines.
Different incentives for specifically Aboriginal people, isn't going to help the Aboriginal community in the long term.
All this does, apart from encouraging a divide between Aborigines and non-Aborigine people, is that it also gives the impression for Aborigines, that they don't have to do anything themselves....everything will, or should, be given to them on a platter. This is a wrong attitude, that breeds contempt and disrespect.

Houses are given to them (used to be like that down Gippsland way, don't know whether its the same anymore or not?), won't give them a sense of respect or pride.
If they have to work for it, like other Australians, then that will hopefully give them that respect, that if they work hard, they CAN help themselves, their families, and their communities.

They need to shed whatever persecution complexes some of them have, and actually take advantage of the lifestyle and privileges that all Australians can enjoy.
We don't have apartheid here, and there isn't anyone, or any law, denying Aborigines a chance to do whatever they wish to.
They need to stop the "black.v.white" rubbish, and also, they need their community leaders to stop taking notice of non-Aboriginal left-wing lunatics, who fuel the flames, with their 'we should give more to the poor Aborigines' rhetoric, as this encourages the divide between races to remain.

Aboriginal parents need to take more responsibility for their children, make them go to school, or even move to a larger community where there is a decent school, if there isn't one in their immediate area.
The parents themselves need to hold down jobs.
At the moment, with different rates for Aborigines/Torres Strait Islanders compared to non-Aborigines, for some welfare grants from the Government, then there is no incentive for Aborigines to try and hold a job, or to work hard to make a difference in their lives, and that of their families.

I think that in a lot of cases, if the parents can get their acts together, and the children are made to go to school (by the parents), then I think there are some fantastic opportunities out there for all Australians to enjoy.....whether you are Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal.

Even schooling by correspondence/internet, is available for people with remote access.
If non-Aboriginal children can complete degrees from sheep-stations and the like, then there is nothing stopping Aboriginal children, with the right environment around them, to accomplish the same.

Keeping a busy and productive lifestyle, will hopefully, drag them out of the petrol-sniffing and drinking alcohol culture that seems to be prevalent in certain areas.

All we can do is give them access to the same opportunities that we give our own children. No one denies them that.....but its most important that the Aboriginal race also have to be willing to help themselves, and be prepared to grab some of these opportunities available to all Australians.

Hi Liverpool,

I am not going to bother to count how many times in this post you say 'they need'   or 'they should' or phrases that basically tell the black Austrlians what they shuld do, or how they should lead their lives, but it's a lot in this post.

I think if you study your history you will find that this sort of uncle Tom paternalism has failed.

I suggest you do some reading, some travelling and some meditation.  Hopefully  you can arrive at some understanding.  From there you might start to suggest ideas that are useful.

Don't take this as me telling you what to do, but its an idea.

Try reading Bruce Elder's 'Blood on the wattle.'

Listen to some Archie Roach and Ruby Hunter.

Try broadening your horizons.

 

[an_oxford_man]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I got -4.13, -4.67. Kinda around the Dalai Lama and Ghandi.

That was interesting. I seemed to end up similar to Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama, libertarian left.

Yeah, everyone seems to end up down there! Libertarian left. It's just a matter of how extreme. Even the most conservative of people tend to end up around the middle.

Gypsy,
I had a crack at your test:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -0.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.72

Does that mean I have a very balanced view, seeing that I am pretty close to the middle?

I suppose it suggests that you are a more of a left winger than a right winger, Liverpool.

 

[lefty]

Hello again Liverpool,

Reading some of your posts I can detect the concept of the 'bootstrap' fallacy.  This concept insists that no matter how downtrodden a person is, no matter how dire their circumstances, they can always rise above it and make something of themselves.

The Rev Doctor Martin Luther King rebutted this argument quite neatly just before his death.  I tried to find the relevant speech on the Web but couldn't.  It would be worth seeking out.

Basically he says, 'It's all very well to ask the black man to raise himself up by his bootstraps, but how can he do that if he doesn't own a pair of boots?'

 

[Liverpool]

G'day Lefty,

While I disagree with you about Howard saying 'sorry', at least you have put your case forward in a civilised manner.

I have no problem John Howard saying 'sorry', on behalf of John Howard....that is his prerogative and his choice.

I do have a problem with Howard, as the PM, saying sorry on behalf of the Australian people.
I think something like this is a personal choice, for all Australians to weigh-up if they want to say sorry themselves for any past indiscretions they have committed.....or not say sorry.

Myself, I won't be saying 'sorry'.
It doesn't mean I don't regret some events that happened in the past, or sympathise with certain aspects, however, I know myself I haven't done anything to any Aboriginal person, and thus, won't be saying sorry for something I haven't done.
I don't take any personal responsibility whatsoever for what happened 200 years ago, or even 20 years ago....I only take responsibility for MY actions, past, present, and future.
I think if each person took responsibility for their own behaviour and actions (and that includes Aboriginal people) then maybe that might be a better way to move forward, instead of continually looking back.

The Rev Doctor Martin Luther King rebutted this argument quite neatly just before his death. I tried to find the relevant speech on the Web but couldn't. It would be worth seeking out.
Basically he says, 'It's all very well to ask the black man to raise himself up by his bootstraps, but how can he do that if he doesn't own a pair of boots?'

Yes, true...but the black man shouldn't just sit back and wait for people to give them a pair of boots either.

 

[dukeos]

Agree with you lefty, enough name calling.  Many good points have been raised.  
I read somewhere that for a defeated people to assilmilate into another culture, it takes 2 generations.  This was a study that looked back as far as the Romans, till now.  Thats 2 generations from when the defeated were accepted as an equal.  For the Aboriginies, I'd say this is when they got the vote.  So, going by this, they have at least another generation to feel a little miffed, and for us I think to give them a hand.  
 

 

[Legends of 2017]

Just a question on the 'Sorry' debate. Has anyone demanded or asked the British government to say sorry as well? The Brits did rule for around 130 years, we didn't have an Australian government until 1901. Surely the Australian government shouldn't have to say sorry on behalf of Great Britain. A lot of injustices were inflicted on the Aboriginals in the twentieth century (personally, I think the fact they weren't allowed to be citizens of this country until 1967 is a great embarrasment in our history), but most of the massacres, displacements etc took place under British rule in the 18th and 19th century. I just think if the Australian government does say sorry, then so should the British government.
Personally, I'm undecided about the worth of saying sorry. Will saying it increase Aboriginal life expectancy? Give them better education? Give them better medical attention? Give them better living conditions? I don't think it would. I personally think the government and Indigineous groups should be focussing on finding out why this is and what can be done to alleviate these problems. Simplistic for a complex problem I know, and I wish I had a solution.