Boat Discussion

[Sintiger]

True dat TIA. I was not upset when the Abbott Gov't decided to limit media access to information about boats. The boats are not the issue and most Australian media outlets have been rabidly focused on them for too long. I am not a fan of "sovereign borders" or "border security" rhetoric mind you this is not a "security" issue either IMO. You've hit the nail on the head in terms of the real issue at the heart of this. Why are Tamils still fleeing Sri Lanka? Why are Iraqis still fleeing Iraq? Why are Somalis fleeing? Why do they choose to do it through people smugglers? Why do they not have papers? The answers to these questions is where the story is and I doubt it involves terrorism or opportunism on the part of the refugee. More likely distrust of authority (with good reason), fear of persecution (and if your documents reveal you to be of the wrong tribe/religion/ethnicity you falsify them or get rid of them), fear for your family etc.

There is very little the government can do to stop people from coming here. We are the jewel in the south. Far enough away from everyone and a small enough nation to be neither a threat nor a target. We are prosperous and have wide open spaces and good weather. We were built by immigrants so we have a general tolerance of difference. People are going to keep coming. The easy way and the hard way. And in the developing world war lords and religious/tribal zealots will keep creating the conditions that generate refugees. Unfortunately so will misguided American imperialism.

There is one thing we know makes a difference. One thing we can do. Educate the women. (Reducing foreign aid at this time seems a backward step it has to be said) Access to education for women has definite effects in so many areas of a developing society. It is a great place to start and would be a step in right direction. Not through charities (often with religious ties) and NGO's they are a cop out. Foreign aid targetted in right places. Not punitive, listen to Bill Gates talking about this on Q & A. Leadership, not grandstanding.

Good post. So often the argument against this is that we haven't got the capability to change things on this scale, that we are a relatively small nation on the world stage. It is the same argument used about carbon emissions, what we do doesn't make a difference.
I have always been bemused by this because making a difference in the world has always been about a lot of people doing their share, who on their own have little influence but collectively do.
We should do our share , and maybe more than that because we are a rich country. Maybe we could even set an example and do a little leading !
This Government (and to be fair the last Government as well) is doing less , instead of leading and contributing we are ignoring the real issue and fortifying our borders. Our response is making it someone else's problem.
We are becoming the spoilt little rich kid of the world.

 

[Rosy]

Cheers KR, you said that far better than I could have & your point about educating women is one that is screamingly obvious when articulated like that. Well done. Now get to it & fix the world!

Would you mind elaborating on screamingly obvious in regard to educating women please Anfield? I don't really get it.

I'm all for equality in education but I don't see how the educated women could bring about the big changes needed to bring peace, prosperity, bountiful harvests and good living conditions so that desperate people don't want to flee. In Somalia 20% of the population is illiterate, 13% for women, and there are an estimated 1.8 million school aged children not in school in the worst affected areas. Better education regardless of gender would probably be beneficial. I'm generalising but Muslim women are often well educated yet their treatment and place in society still leaves a lot to be desired imo. Not sure that education transfers to things like changing a culture or preventing terrorism. I'm sure educating Tamil and Somali women would benefit long term from being educated but it won't do much to help those suffering appalling conditions and losing their lives at sea in the present situation.

 

[This Is Anfield]

Would you mind elaborating on screamingly obvious in regard to educating women please Anfield? I don't really get it.

I'm all for equality in education but I don't see how the educated women could bring about the big changes needed to bring peace, prosperity, bountiful harvests and good living conditions so that desperate people don't want to flee. In Somalia 20% of the population is illiterate, 13% for women, and there are an estimated 1.8 million school aged children not in school in the worst affected areas. Better education regardless of gender would probably be beneficial. I'm generalising but Muslim women are often well educated yet their treatment and place in society still leaves a lot to be desired imo. Not sure that education transfers to things like changing a culture or preventing terrorism. I'm sure educating Tamil and Somali women would benefit long term from being educated but it won't do much to help those suffering appalling conditions and losing their lives at sea in the present situation.

I was responding to KR's very well made point, that an obvious point that I omitted in my post above his, was that educating the women in oppressed regions & bringing about true equality would be a huge step in the right direction. It was "screamingly obvious" to me that I should have factored this into my reasoning.

 

[AngryAnt]

In terms of social and economic development, education of women is one of the key determinants. Societies where women are better educated also tend to have decreased fertility rates thus weakening the poverty cycle further.

 

[Rosy]

I understand that antman and I'm all for educating women but it's another topic really. It's more a long term plan that will take time to have any influence but there is a very immediate problem that is the topic of this thread.

 

[AngryAnt]

I understand that antman and I'm all for educating women but it's another topic really. It's more a long term plan that will take time to have any influence but there is a very immediate problem that is the topic of this thread.

Agree - they are two separate but related problems.

 

[K3]

I understand that antman and I'm all for educating women but it's another topic really. It's more a long term plan that will take time to have any influence but there is a very immediate problem that is the topic of this thread.

I believe the very valid point is that if women's education levels, in developing countries, were improved, it would have a direct impact on the number of people wanting to look for a new place to live. Without wanting to look up the large number of studies done, which go a way to point this out, I believe it is generally accepted 'wisdom' that it would, in fact, help a lot.

http://elibrary.worldbank.org/doi/book/10.1596/0-8018-4534-3 - snipped of the report but touches on benefits
http://collections.infocollections.org/ukedu/en/d/Jh1748e/6.html - just the preface but reinforces benefits to improving women's education
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-03-07/the-economic-benefits-of-educating-women - from pretty much a 'money' point of view


Hopefully they help to give you a decent overview of the myriad of benefits the improvement in women's education would bring, and the direct flow-on effect it would have in reducing the number of people looking to find new homes abroad.

 

[Rosy]

Thanks K3. I am not for one second questioning the benefits of educating women. As I said though it's more a long term project for future benefit, and one that I certainly hope is being addressed, for a problem that also needs immediate solutions.

 

[K3]

Thanks K3. I am not for one second questioning the benefits of educating women. As I said though it's more a long term project for future benefit, and one that I certainly hope is being addressed, for a problem that also needs immediate solutions.

Not a problem at all. As for immediate solution, I think there really is only one, and that is to put more 'feet on the ground' to go through visa applications - something which hasn't been addressed for a while. If the Govt, put required resources into getting through the masses of applications, I think people would have some faith in 'the system' and would take that path, instead of risking everything on a leaky boat.

Besides the above, I recon all other solutions/ measures are long term ones.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I respectfully disagree. Boats of refugees have been launching for our shores from south east Asia for decades. There is no short term solution. This is not a short term problem. The Howard Government turned an existing issue into a headline and it has not changed much since. To look at it the way recent governments of both stripes have is to accept that pull factors outweigh push factors. I haven't seen this case made convincingly (but then I'm left of the left). Most of the governments' stance on this is for a domestic audience and has almost nothing to do with the refugees themselves. As such I think most "policy" announcements are so much froth and bubble.

One thing we certainly need to have is a very good relationship with Indonesia and other Asian neighbours - how would you say that relationship is tracking at present? - and to spend money and time over there looking at how to improve UNHCR processes to circumvent the use of people smugglers. I very much doubt reducing foreign aid will help in this regard.

 

[Rosy]

I respectfully disagree. Boats of refugees have been launching for our shores from south east Asia for decades. There is no short term solution. This is not a short term problem. ...

I certainly don't think of it as a short term problem. It's a problem that needs immediate attention as well as long term planning. Not much good twiddling thumbs waiting for the women to be educated and active in bringing about change. I don't know the answer am not sure that K3' opinion that there is only one immediate solution and that is to process visas. I'd like to think there was some way the more prosperous and fortunate countries could somehow help improve the plight of others remaining in their own land.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I didn't think I proposed any thumb twiddling. Refugees are going to come and some are going to come by boat. Just as they always have. I think it was ant who reminded us of the problems related to policing Indonesia's massive coast due to the nature of archipelagoes. This is not an immediate problem it is an ongoing one that has been given an air of immediacy by the actions of successive governments that have used refugees as political headline generators. The media are now bleating about the disappearance of their guaranteed front pages because the PM wants the story to change. I am suspicious of his motives but I hope he accidentally cures the media of this particular addiction.
There are humane solutions available. Speeding up asylum claims, temporary community settlement.

 

[Rosy]

Not sure if you ignored my original question or misunderstood it Knighters. Maybe it wasn't worded too well but it wasn't about the boats. I meant improving conditions so people didn't need to flee. I simply wondered if we're doing anything to help change their situation. It's allegedly costing taxpayers half a million dollars per asylum seeker to keep them at the Manus Island cesspit and Nauru. I wonder if that billion dollars+ a year could somehow be spent to improve conditions in the asylum seekers homelands. They can't all be taken as asylum seekers and those who don't will still suffer in the same dreadful situation. Not for one second pretending to know any answers.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Not sure if you ignored my original question or misunderstood it Knighters. Maybe it wasn't worded too well but it wasn't about the boats. I meant improving conditions so people didn't need to flee. I simply wondered if we're doing anything to help change their situation. It's allegedly costing taxpayers half a million dollars per asylum seeker to keep them at the Manus Island cesspit and Nauru. I wonder if that billion dollars+ a year could somehow be spent to improve conditions in the asylum seekers homelands. They can't all be taken as asylum seekers and those who don't will still suffer in the same dreadful situation. Not for one second pretending to know any answers.

I certainly didn't intentionally ignore any questions but I assumed others subsequent responses covered most areas. On improving the conditions on the ground in the countries from which many are fleeing there is almost certainly more we could do. Improving the lot of women and girls as mentioned through promoting education has so many benefits. How can we do anything about that? Aid programs where the funding is targetted at schools with quotas for female students might be a way. I have no specific knowledge of such programs so I can't give you numbers on what we are currently doing but we know that aid as a percentage of GDP has been declining for decades. I wonder what the impact would have been if the multi-billions (trillions?) Of dollars spent blowing Iraq and Afghanistan to smitherens had been spent on hospitals and schools and infrastructure with international flags showing who was helping and whether the level of distrust for western culture in these countries would be the same today?

One of my - many - bug bears is how much governments rely on charities to suppliment their foreign programs. In this era of "government as business". Governments take credit for the work of charities and use weasel words like nimble to claim that they couldn't have the same impact for the same investment. I think wealthy governments ought to get back into the business of caring and helping the less fortunate which I believe would foster more trust and better outcomes for everyone. Cheesy I know. But why not try?

 

[poppa x]

I think one aspect of the boat debate that has been overlooked is the Internet.
The Internet is a double edged sword.
On the one hand it shows people in poorer countries how prosperous the West is and paints a rosy picture of life in places such as Australia. It's basically a free plug for Australia et al.
But, on the other hand it tells poor people how corrupt their own governments are (in many cases) and encourages war and revolution from which people want to flee. Guess where to?
I think it was Rupert Murdoch who many years ago predicted the Internet would have the biggest impact on world peace that any other medium. He basically said "knowledge is power for the people" and the Internet helps create the knowledge.

2c.

 

[bullus_hit]

I think one aspect of the boat debate that has been overlooked is the Internet.
The Internet is a double edged sword.
On the one hand it shows people in poorer countries how prosperous the West is and paints a rosy picture of life in places such as Australia. It's basically a free plug for Australia et al.
But, on the other hand it tells poor people how corrupt their own governments are (in many cases) and encourages war and revolution from which people want to flee. Guess where to?
I think it was Rupert Murdoch who many years ago predicted the Internet would have the biggest impact on world peace that any other medium. He basically said "knowledge is power for the people" and the Internet helps create the knowledge.

2c.

Poor people generally don't have access to the internet, refugees would be spending least time on such pastimes. If one is facing persecution, surfing foreign websites would be the last thing on their mind, usually a country's welcoming credentials would be determined through word of mouth, family members and the like communicating stories of triumph. The internet may play a minor role but no more than TV or film.

As to Rupert Murdoch's quote, I find it unbelievably perverse that this man attempts to deliver such sage advice yet instead encourages war through his media empire - simply because there is a profit to be made. Studies from the Iraq fiasco found that over 90% of his editorials were in favour of the Iraq invasion, hardly a representative sample I wouldn't have thought. And then there's his attempts at thwarting any attempts at moving to a cutting edge broadband network, it would seem that knowledge isn't that important when Rupert's honeypot is being tampered with.

 

[poppa x]

Poor people generally don't have access to the internet, refugees would be spending least time on such pastimes

Maybe.
But how do they find out Australia is such a wonderful place to come to?

 

[Baloo]

Maybe.
But how do they find out Australia is such a wonderful place to come to?

By watching Neighbours

 

[This Is Anfield]

By watching Neighbours

Surely it's Home & Away - Summer Bay much more enticing than Nunawading or Forest Hill.

 

[Baloo]

Surely it's Home & Away - Summer Bay much more enticing than Nunawading or Forest Hill.

Pin Oak Crt (Ramsey Street) is in Vermont South