Bowden v Vlastuin

[Streak]

Lets not forget Joel also spent stints in the midfield and also forward over this career. I remember him winning a game or two of his boot. In terms of playing multiple positions he trumps Nick.

This is a key point for me.

Are we comparing Joel and Nick as defensive players, or for all round ability?

If it is all round, then Bowden is way in front. Nick was expected to develop in to a midfielder when he was drafted and didn't, but has become a superb backman. Joel could play forward, back and through the middle.

If we are talking as a pure backman, then yep, I'd go with Nick, although Joel's footy brain, calmness and leadership are very hard to overlook.

 

[Sintiger]

This is a key point for me.

Are we comparing Joel and Nick as defensive players, or for all round ability?

If it is all round, then Bowden is way in front. Nick was expected to develop in to a midfielder when he was drafted and didn't, but has become a superb backman. Joel could play forward, back and through the middle.

If we are talking as a pure backman, then yep, I'd go with Nick, although Joel's footy brain, calmness and leadership are very hard to overlook.

If we had a 25 year old Bowden available now or during our premiership years I reckon we would play him on a wing.

He could have also played the Caddy forward role of 2017-18 or the Broad role in the backline.

That’s what Bowdo had, a versatility that few players have.

 

[FitenFitenWin]

If we're talking about transplanting Joel into any of our premiership teams in place of Nick - I wouldn't do it. Well, maybe in the one where Nick was knocked out early. But you don't mess with a winning formula.

I wasn't a fan of Bowden early days - I didn't really like his play as a forward and I thought his contributions to the midfield amounted to less than nothing. But he was an absolute champion in the backline. Influential too - after all, he changed the rules of the game!

But Nick for mine.

 

[Redford]

This is a key point for me.

Are we comparing Joel and Nick as defensive players, or for all round ability?

If it is all round, then Bowden is way in front. Nick was expected to develop in to a midfielder when he was drafted and didn't, but has become a superb backman. Joel could play forward, back and through the middle.

If we are talking as a pure backman, then yep, I'd go with Nick, although Joel's footy brain, calmness and leadership are very hard to overlook.

Yes and no.

If you want to look at positional versatility then Bowden has Nick covered for being able to play multiple positions whereas Nick's been a backman for 95% of the time. But in terms of overall player make up I think Nick has him covered.

There was a glaring weakness in Bowden's game and that was his lack of physicality to put it politely. Not sure he was a great lock down defender either.

Does Nick have a glaring weakness in his game ? Don't think so. Some might call out his recent lack of discipline but they are just two or three specks of momentary, aberrational lapse. Two or three bad minutes in amongst a bazillion minutes. Otherwise is there a definitive weakness in the way he plays ? I don't think so whereas I couldn't say the same about Joel.

Certainly Joel has him covered for kicking and a few other items, but all those items Nick's still pretty competent in but Nick doesn't carry any real and obvious weakness in his game that has you pulling your hair like a lot of people used to do with Joel, I don't reckon.

 

[wigglyworm]

I think we all forget how good a player Joel was in a really crappy team. When he was at his peak he was a really talented player and one who would have attracted a lot of interest from other clubs

 

[No 4]

The 3x premiership player is irrelevant imo. Eg. Would you rate Jason Castagna ahead of Bowden?

aren't we only comparing the two players? Where did castagna come into this thread? I do rate premierships.

 

[No 4]

I've said before premierships are irrelevant to judging an individual's worth. Being a premiership player is as much about being in the right time and place than your own talent.



And Cameron Mooney. Who is as good as Riewoldt.

premierships are important. I believe the Richmond side that had Richardson, Broderick, Knights, Campbell, Daffy, Turner, Bowden, Kellaway would come close to our current premiership side in ability, but playing at a high level 2017 - 2022 and winning 3 premierships stands out more.

 

[Sintiger]

aren't we only comparing the two players? Where did castagna come into this thread? I do rate premierships.

The point is that imo the idea that one player should be rated more highly than another because they played in a premiership side is flawed. There are plenty of premiership players who are inferior to others who weren’t.
If Joel Bowden had played 15 years later he would have been a multiple premiership Tiger. Vlastuin did, but that doesn’t make him a better player than Bowden, just a more fortunate one.

 

[Brodders17]

I was a big Joel Bowden fan, criminally underrated, especially when he moved to essentially CHB.

I reckon both were the best options for their time. If Vlastuin played in the crap teams Bowden played in, he probably would have just been another good player in a bad team, especially as a HBF. Good player, yes, but not the champ he should now be recognised as.
But I reckon Vlastuin has been better in our premiership teams than Bowden would have- at least in the backline. We have the great key backs, so Bowden wouldnt have needed to play tall, we have the versatile talls, who can also play on small fowards, so Bowden wouldnt have been a "3rd tall", we have had the running defenders, so we wouldnt have needed Bowden to do that, but Vlastuin has really filled the role or the tough medium back, who can fill in tall or small and stand in the hole all day long. While I dont reckon Bowden was soft, I am not sure he was quite as keen as Vlastuin is to get his head knocked off.

But as someone mentioned, Bowden could probably have played wing or half forward, or midfield or anywhere. He was a very good footballer, who adapted to whatever role he was asked to play.

 

[Merveille]

The point is that imo the idea that one player should be rated more highly than another because they played in a premiership side is flawed. There are plenty of premiership players who are inferior to others who weren’t.
If Joel Bowden had played 15 years later he would have been a multiple premiership Tiger. Vlastuin did, but that doesn’t make him a better player than Bowden, just a more fortunate one.

Bowdo had to be a ‘hole-plugger’ in weaker teams so played more positions. Tigers far more settled so Vlas has been predominantly back. I do however remember him going forward - one day Jack went down at the G before Lynch was around and Vlas went forward and marked and kicked goals. He is very versatile and has played well as a mid and a forward.
I actually am not prepared to make a choice can’t do it

 

[MD Jazz]

This is a key point for me.

Are we comparing Joel and Nick as defensive players, or for all round ability?

If it is all round, then Bowden is way in front. Nick was expected to develop in to a midfielder when he was drafted and didn't, but has become a superb backman. Joel could play forward, back and through the middle.

If we are talking as a pure backman, then yep, I'd go with Nick, although Joel's footy brain, calmness and leadership are very hard to overlook.

Calmness - Vlas has it in spades. His ball handling and distribution is first class. Never fumbles. Never panics. Its one of his many outstanding features. And his ball use is sublime.

Great players both.

 

[mj72]

I would have liked to have seen Joel play forward for an extended period.
Early days (forgive my sketchy memory here) I reckon he kicked 3 or so in a half (maybe against WCE??) then did his shoulder same game at the MCG. He looked every bit our James Hird and I used to think that is what he would become.
Love them both.

 

[wigglyworm]

Calmness - Vlas has it in spades. His ball handling and distribution is first class. Never fumbles. Never panics. Its one of his many outstanding features. And his ball use is sublime.

Great players both.

Vlas although has let some stupid acts get him suspended recently costing the team. Needs to get that stuff out of his game

 

[MD Jazz]

I would have liked to have seen Joel play forward for an extended period.
Early days (forgive my sketchy memory here) I reckon he kicked 3 or so in a half (maybe against WCE??) then did his shoulder same game at the MCG. He looked every bit our James Hird and I used to think that is what he would become.
Love them both.

James Hird was an all-time great. No way would Joel have ever been able to replicate what he could do. Hird's ability to win the ball when out of position or in a contest is as good as anyones who ever played the game. Courage, skill, competitiveness....sorry Joel was never gonna be in that class.

I'm no fan of Hird the person but he is a football all-time great

 

[mj72]

James Hird was an all-time great. No way would Joel have ever been able to replicate what he could do. Hird's ability to win the ball when out of position or in a contest is as good as anyones who ever played the game. Courage, skill, competitiveness....sorry Joel was never gonna be in that class.

I'm no fan of Hird the person but he is a football all-time great

I dont disagree - I was just saying 'at the time' early in his career, that was what I hoped for

 

[Sintiger]

I would have liked to have seen Joel play forward for an extended period.
Early days (forgive my sketchy memory here) I reckon he kicked 3 or so in a half (maybe against WCE??) then did his shoulder same game at the MCG. He looked every bit our James Hird and I used to think that is what he would become.
Love them both.

yep, against West coast in 1997. He had 4 on the board and did his shoulder.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1997/141819970519.html

 

[mj72]

yep, against West coast in 1997. He had 4 on the board and did his shoulder.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1997/141819970519.html

thanks - I think he slotted a few of them from 50 out as well.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Yes and no.

If you want to look at positional versatility then Bowden has Nick covered for being able to play multiple positions whereas Nick's been a backman for 95% of the time. But in terms of overall player make up I think Nick has him covered.

There was a glaring weakness in Bowden's game and that was his lack of physicality to put it politely. Not sure he was a great lock down defender either.

Does Nick have a glaring weakness in his game ? Don't think so. Some might call out his recent lack of discipline but they are just two or three specks of momentary, aberrational lapse. Two or three bad minutes in amongst a bazillion minutes. Otherwise is there a definitive weakness in the way he plays ? I don't think so whereas I couldn't say the same about Joel.

Certainly Joel has him covered for kicking and a few other items, but all those items Nick's still pretty competent in but Nick doesn't carry any real and obvious weakness in his game that has you pulling your hair like a lot of people used to do with Joel, I don't reckon.

Agree with you except I do not agree that Bowden had him covered for kicking. Nick is a very very good kick, and usually chooses the right option. It’s not even a contest in my opinion and I have watched the whole of both of their careers, Vlastuin is by far the better player. Tough and uncompromising, plays tall and small, with great skills and footy nous.

 

[Redford]

Agree with you except I do not agree that Bowden had him covered for kicking. Nick is a very very good kick, and usually chooses the right option. It’s not even a contest in my opinion and I have watched the whole of both of their careers, Vlastuin is by far the better player. Tough and uncompromising, plays tall and small, with great skills and footy nous.

Vlastuin also has (hopefully) another 3 or 4 years left in his career too, something that nobody’s mentioned.

Ergo we’re comparing Vlastuin to Bowden short of his full body of work which is testimony to just how good Vlastuin actually is imo.

 

[Stackey]

Calmness - Vlas has it in spades. His ball handling and distribution is first class. Never fumbles. Never panics. Its one of his many outstanding features. And his ball use is sublime.

Great players both.

Eddie Betts says hold my beer...vlas fumble in 1st Q GF...and scores a goal! Never fumbles!??????