Essendon = Entitlement | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Essendon = Entitlement

Mac

Tiger Champion
Sep 16, 2003
2,602
779
Sorry TBR, I’m just not with you on the ‘Hird was duped’ page.

You’ve expressed this:
Why would he question off-site injections if an expert told him they were required? Hird isn't medically trained, why would he argue if Dank says to ensure hygiene standards are met it needs to be done in a clinic? It's not like going off-site for a medical procedure is uncommon practice.

But someone who was medically trained wrote this to him:

Dr Bruce Reid wrote to James Hird and then football manager Paul Hamilton in January 2012 expressing his concern over the supplements program. His communication was revealed as part of the list of charges levelled by the AFL against the Bombers.

Dear James/Paul

I have some fundamental problems being club doctor at present. This particularly applies to the administration of supplements. Although we have been giving supplements for approximately three months, despite repeated requests as to exactly what we are giving our players and the literature related to this, have at no time been given that until last Sunday [15 January 2012]. Last week the players were given subcutaneous injections, not by myself, and I had no idea that this was happening and also what drug was involved.

It appears to me that in Sydney with Rugby League the clubs do not answer to the governing body (e.g. A.F.L.). It seems that their whole culture is based on trying to beat the system as are close to the edge as one can. It is my belief in A.F.L. that we should be winning flags by keeping a drug free culture.

It is all very well to say this is not banned and that is not banned but for example, the injection that we have given our players subcutaneously, was a drug called AOD/9604, is an Oligomeric Peptide. This drug is derived from the growth hormone.

This molecule has been constructed so it has removed what we call IGF1, which is part of the growth hormone that causes muscle and organ growth and bone length and photosynthesis.

It is at the moment used for fat metabolism but also bone strength in children and may have some side effects that may be beneficial in bone growth. This to me just seem ludicrous at this stage where the only trials I have got are on how to lost weight and fat around the abdomen.

If we are resorting to deliver this altered growth hormone molecule, I think we are playing at the edge and this will read extremely badly in the press for our club and for the benefits and also for side effects that are not known in the long term, I have trouble with all these drugs.

I am still not sure whether AOD/9604 is approved by the drug authorities in Australia at this stage. Just because it is not classified as illegal, doesn’t mean that it can be used freely in the community, it cannot. The other interesting thing about AOD/9604, is that its market in America is in body builders. This also should raise a red flag if we are worried about perception.

When it comes to Actovegin, this has been used around the world for many years. There is some flimsy evidence that it may help in speeding up the healing of tendons when they are damaged, though after speaking to radiologists, the recent opinion is that platelets and one’s own blood, probably does a better job.

We are claiming that we should use it as a recovery agent. To me it seems ludicrous that a few mls of calf’s blood spun down, is going to give you a concentration of growth factors and other factors that would speed up recovery.

I am very frustrated by this and now feel I am letting the club down by not automatically approving of these things. I need to collect my thoughts as these drugs have been given without my knowledge.

I am sure Steve Danks believes that what we are doing is totally ethical and legal, however, one wonders whether if you take a long stance and look at this from a distance, whether you would want your children being injected with a derivative hormone that is not free to the community and whether calf’s blood, that has been used for many years and is still doubted by most doctors, is worth pursuing.

Kind Regards
Dr. Bruce Reid
M.B.B.S.
Senior Medical Officer


Following, Reid’s letter, Hird’s text:
In a text sent on 30 January 2012, Hird told Corcoran that he should
"organise a meeting with you me Reidy, Danksy and Weapon the day you get back. Reidy has stopped everything which is getting a little frustrating."

In another text message, Corcoran tells Hird: "You know I read a book on world doping while away and once lay people start injecting players there are always issues!! We must be careful for a host of reasons."


I won’t put the rest up here, but when you knit all the texts, letters, etc and timelines together, it paints a very strong strong picture that Hird wasn’t innocent, but up to his eyeballs in it.

Either way, he was either guilty or he was extraordinarily and hopelessly inept in a situation where any average Joe could see that what was happening was crooked. Either way his sense of governance for the role of senior coach is not appropriate. Even if he is utterly innocent and a mere scapegoat, appointing him as Essendon coach again sends a terrible message to the grass roots football community, especially if most clubs were somewhat dirty at the time.
 
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jimbob

Tiger Superstar
Jul 20, 2008
1,667
559
Traralgon
Sorry TBR, I’m just not with you on the ‘Hird was duped’ page.

You’ve expressed this:
Why would he question off-site injections if an expert told him they were required? Hird isn't medically trained, why would he argue if Dank says to ensure hygiene standards are met it needs to be done in a clinic? It's not like going off-site for a medical procedure is uncommon practice.

But someone who was medically trained wrote this to him:

Dr Bruce Reid wrote to James Hird and then football manager Paul Hamilton in January 2012 expressing his concern over the supplements program. His communication was revealed as part of the list of charges levelled by the AFL against the Bombers.

Dear James/Paul

I have some fundamental problems being club doctor at present. This particularly applies to the administration of supplements. Although we have been giving supplements for approximately three months, despite repeated requests as to exactly what we are giving our players and the literature related to this, have at no time been given that until last Sunday [15 January 2012]. Last week the players were given subcutaneous injections, not by myself, and I had no idea that this was happening and also what drug was involved.

It appears to me that in Sydney with Rugby League the clubs do not answer to the governing body (e.g. A.F.L.). It seems that their whole culture is based on trying to beat the system as are close to the edge as one can. It is my belief in A.F.L. that we should be winning flags by keeping a drug free culture.

It is all very well to say this is not banned and that is not banned but for example, the injection that we have given our players subcutaneously, was a drug called AOD/9604, is an Oligomeric Peptide. This drug is derived from the growth hormone.

This molecule has been constructed so it has removed what we call IGF1, which is part of the growth hormone that causes muscle and organ growth and bone length and photosynthesis.

It is at the moment used for fat metabolism but also bone strength in children and may have some side effects that may be beneficial in bone growth. This to me just seem ludicrous at this stage where the only trials I have got are on how to lost weight and fat around the abdomen.

If we are resorting to deliver this altered growth hormone molecule, I think we are playing at the edge and this will read extremely badly in the press for our club and for the benefits and also for side effects that are not known in the long term, I have trouble with all these drugs.

I am still not sure whether AOD/9604 is approved by the drug authorities in Australia at this stage. Just because it is not classified as illegal, doesn’t mean that it can be used freely in the community, it cannot. The other interesting thing about AOD/9604, is that its market in America is in body builders. This also should raise a red flag if we are worried about perception.

When it comes to Actovegin, this has been used around the world for many years. There is some flimsy evidence that it may help in speeding up the healing of tendons when they are damaged, though after speaking to radiologists, the recent opinion is that platelets and one’s own blood, probably does a better job.

We are claiming that we should use it as a recovery agent. To me it seems ludicrous that a few mls of calf’s blood spun down, is going to give you a concentration of growth factors and other factors that would speed up recovery.

I am very frustrated by this and now feel I am letting the club down by not automatically approving of these things. I need to collect my thoughts as these drugs have been given without my knowledge.

I am sure Steve Danks believes that what we are doing is totally ethical and legal, however, one wonders whether if you take a long stance and look at this from a distance, whether you would want your children being injected with a derivative hormone that is not free to the community and whether calf’s blood, that has been used for many years and is still doubted by most doctors, is worth pursuing.

Kind Regards
Dr. Bruce Reid
M.B.B.S.
Senior Medical Officer


Following, Reid’s letter, Hird’s text:
In a text sent on 30 January 2012, Hird told Corcoran that he should
"organise a meeting with you me Reidy, Danksy and Weapon the day you get back. Reidy has stopped everything which is getting a little frustrating."

In another text message, Corcoran tells Hird: "You know I read a book on world doping while away and once lay people start injecting players there are always issues!! We must be careful for a host of reasons."


I won’t put the rest up here, but when you knit all the texts, letters, etc and timelines together, it paints a very strong strong picture that Hird wasn’t innocent, but up to his eyeballs in it.

Either way, he was either guilty or he was extraordinarily and hopelessly inept in a situation where any average Joe could see that what was happening was crooked. Either way his sense of governance for the role of senior coach is not appropriate. Even if he is utterly innocent and a mere scapegoat, appointing him as Essendon coach again sends a terrible message to the grass roots football community, especially if most clubs where somewhat dirty at the time.
Agree 100%. I rest my case your honour. Hirdy was just an ignorant choir boy wanting the best for his boys. Yeah………stand up comic is closer to the truth.
 
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seven

Super Tiger
Apr 20, 2004
25,477
10,455
Essendumb got what they deserved. Can’t believe the AFL never investigated Geeelong over the matter. They were quick to take their word Dank done nothing wrong with their boys
 
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RoarEmotion

Tiger Champion
Aug 20, 2005
2,771
3,073
Sorry TBR, I’m just not with you on the ‘Hird was duped’ page.

You’ve expressed this:
Why would he question off-site injections if an expert told him they were required? Hird isn't medically trained, why would he argue if Dank says to ensure hygiene standards are met it needs to be done in a clinic? It's not like going off-site for a medical procedure is uncommon practice.

But someone who was medically trained wrote this to him:

Dr Bruce Reid wrote to James Hird and then football manager Paul Hamilton in January 2012 expressing his concern over the supplements program. His communication was revealed as part of the list of charges levelled by the AFL against the Bombers.

Dear James/Paul

I have some fundamental problems being club doctor at present. This particularly applies to the administration of supplements. Although we have been giving supplements for approximately three months, despite repeated requests as to exactly what we are giving our players and the literature related to this, have at no time been given that until last Sunday [15 January 2012]. Last week the players were given subcutaneous injections, not by myself, and I had no idea that this was happening and also what drug was involved.

It appears to me that in Sydney with Rugby League the clubs do not answer to the governing body (e.g. A.F.L.). It seems that their whole culture is based on trying to beat the system as are close to the edge as one can. It is my belief in A.F.L. that we should be winning flags by keeping a drug free culture.

It is all very well to say this is not banned and that is not banned but for example, the injection that we have given our players subcutaneously, was a drug called AOD/9604, is an Oligomeric Peptide. This drug is derived from the growth hormone.

This molecule has been constructed so it has removed what we call IGF1, which is part of the growth hormone that causes muscle and organ growth and bone length and photosynthesis.

It is at the moment used for fat metabolism but also bone strength in children and may have some side effects that may be beneficial in bone growth. This to me just seem ludicrous at this stage where the only trials I have got are on how to lost weight and fat around the abdomen.

If we are resorting to deliver this altered growth hormone molecule, I think we are playing at the edge and this will read extremely badly in the press for our club and for the benefits and also for side effects that are not known in the long term, I have trouble with all these drugs.

I am still not sure whether AOD/9604 is approved by the drug authorities in Australia at this stage. Just because it is not classified as illegal, doesn’t mean that it can be used freely in the community, it cannot. The other interesting thing about AOD/9604, is that its market in America is in body builders. This also should raise a red flag if we are worried about perception.

When it comes to Actovegin, this has been used around the world for many years. There is some flimsy evidence that it may help in speeding up the healing of tendons when they are damaged, though after speaking to radiologists, the recent opinion is that platelets and one’s own blood, probably does a better job.

We are claiming that we should use it as a recovery agent. To me it seems ludicrous that a few mls of calf’s blood spun down, is going to give you a concentration of growth factors and other factors that would speed up recovery.

I am very frustrated by this and now feel I am letting the club down by not automatically approving of these things. I need to collect my thoughts as these drugs have been given without my knowledge.

I am sure Steve Danks believes that what we are doing is totally ethical and legal, however, one wonders whether if you take a long stance and look at this from a distance, whether you would want your children being injected with a derivative hormone that is not free to the community and whether calf’s blood, that has been used for many years and is still doubted by most doctors, is worth pursuing.

Kind Regards
Dr. Bruce Reid
M.B.B.S.
Senior Medical Officer


Following, Reid’s letter, Hird’s text:
In a text sent on 30 January 2012, Hird told Corcoran that he should
"organise a meeting with you me Reidy, Danksy and Weapon the day you get back. Reidy has stopped everything which is getting a little frustrating."

In another text message, Corcoran tells Hird: "You know I read a book on world doping while away and once lay people start injecting players there are always issues!! We must be careful for a host of reasons."


I won’t put the rest up here, but when you knit all the texts, letters, etc and timelines together, it paints a very strong strong picture that Hird wasn’t innocent, but up to his eyeballs in it.

Either way, he was either guilty or he was extraordinarily and hopelessly inept in a situation where any average Joe could see that what was happening was crooked. Either way his sense of governance for the role of senior coach is not appropriate. Even if he is utterly innocent and a mere scapegoat, appointing him as Essendon coach again sends a terrible message to the grass roots football community, especially if most clubs were somewhat dirty at the time.

I’d forgotten or never seen this email. When your trusted club doctor is raising serious red flags and other people are flagging similar issues then you ride roughshod over the top of them it just talks to the whatever it takes culture driven by leadership.

The coach clearly has a massive position of power despite their reporting lines and also the power of the press at their disposal too with frequent communication opportunities. James’ lack of contrition makes his role untenable as a coach anywhere in the AFL to me. To TBRs points there are a whole host of others who seem to have got off Scott free.
 
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The Big Richo

Tiger Matchwinner
Aug 19, 2010
800
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The home of Dusty
I also can’t come at the comment that Reid had no idea about pharmaceuticals. How did Doc Reid get his qualification to be a doctor? Out of a cornflakes packet? Every doctor I have ever met understands pharmaceuticals. If not, they don’t become a doctor and can’t prescribe medications.

It would be a major part of Reid's job to understand pharma and what is and isn't a PED, and what feels like it might be in the grey zone.
Ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

Apologies, I botched the typing of that up when I edited what I was writing. What I meant to say was it was likely correct given the weird stuff they were using and the report said the fitness team felt that. I'll go back and edit it to make sense.


But someone who was medically trained wrote this to him:

Yes, Dr Reid was all over Dank and rightly so.

But Hird was with him. As the Switkowski report says:

Following concerns about the program in January, the Senior Coach reasserted the principles about the supplement program that:
• any supplement must be WADA and ASADA compliant
• it must not be harmful to players health
• players must be properly informed about anything entering their bodies, and
• every product was to be cleared by the doctor


To me that would seem to be perfectly sensible and the bedrock for every sport science program in any elite sport.

The report then says:

These guidelines were reasonable and unambiguous, but compliance required robust recording and monitoring processes which proved inadequate.

The following key issues led to a breakdown in oversight:
i) An assumption was made by the Senior Coach that his instructions would be followed to the letter. In early 2012, there appears to have been no structured follow up, monitoring or recording of compliance with the wishes of the coach.

ii) Instruction by the coach to the Performance team to manage the supplements program legally and not ‘cross the line' is superficially clear enough, but again involves a high degree of trust.


So Hird, as senior coach receives concerns from the Doctor, responds to them in a reasonable and unambiguous way with clear and logical instructions.

The wishes of the coach were not implemented because there was a breakdown in follow up, compliance, monitoring and recording.

Those things were clearly the duty of the high performance team. Dank failed to perform those tasks, Robinson, as his direct manager failed to see that he did and Hamilton, as Robinson's manager failed to ensure it as well. Hamilton did not even make the CEO or the board aware of the letter. That's the chain of responsibility, right there.
 

fastin bulbous

I Dig Syd
Mar 30, 2010
3,482
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Darwin
That's a different angle for sure. Personally I'd be very surprised if that was the case, mainly because I don't even think Dank understood exactly what he was doing.

I have a lot more experience in these areas than the average person on the street and I really struggled to get my head around what they did and some of the substances they were apparently administering. It really was a weird and wacky program.

I doubt Hird would have understood a word of it apart from I'll make your players better. All speculation of course.



Yeah, apologies, I'm not as sharp as I once was and I'm not understanding the navy analogy I don't think.
They are not operating in a vacuum. Even a basic internet search would have given them enough info to know what they were doing was not acceptable. Ignorance is definitely no excuse in this case. While I generally appreciate your counterpoint, this argument is redundant in the internet era. At the very least he was negligent which is enough to ban him for life imo.
 
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Mac

Tiger Champion
Sep 16, 2003
2,602
779
Appreciate the thorough response TBR.

I’m still not convinced though.

There was some dubiousness about who wrote that report (alluded to by jimbob) and I find it ingenuous. For instance this part you have cited -

Following concerns about the program in January, the Senior Coach reasserted the principles about the supplement program that:
• any supplement must be WADA and ASADA compliant
• it must not be harmful to players health
• players must be properly informed about anything entering their bodies, and
• every product was to be cleared by the doctor


Hird had already established these principles for the optics but had already ‘pushed the boundaries’ beyond them by the time of this report. Reasserting them was a bit meaningless in that context, when he’d already shown ’whatever it takes’ was his real mantra. Actions vs words.

Anyway, you’ve got your considered opinion, which is fair enough. Mine differs is all.
 
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jimbob

Tiger Superstar
Jul 20, 2008
1,667
559
Traralgon
Appreciate the thorough response TBR.

I’m still not convinced though.

There was some dubiousness about who wrote that report (alluded to by jimbob) and I find it ingenuous. For instance this part you have cited -

Following concerns about the program in January, the Senior Coach reasserted the principles about the supplement program that:
• any supplement must be WADA and ASADA compliant
• it must not be harmful to players health
• players must be properly informed about anything entering their bodies, and
• every product was to be cleared by the doctor


Hird had already established these principles for the optics but had already ‘pushed the boundaries’ beyond them by the time of this report. Reasserting them was a bit meaningless in that context, when he’d already shown ’whatever it takes’ was his real mantra. Actions vs words.

Anyway, you’ve got your considered opinion, which is fair enough. Mine differs is all.
Which I love!

I will ignore then WADA/ASADA compliant points which we know they didn’t adhere to. Point 2………and what were the parameters around this??? As long as the Dankmeister and Shane “i currently have a tax problem for not paying GST on my programs” Charters approved?

Players properly informed???. Here……… sign this form you blokes….it’s all good……everything we will inject you with is all goood……it’s vitamins….. obviously approved vitamins….. the bestest…….Don’t tell anyone…..don’t tell anyone…….it’s top secret……

EVERY PRODUCT CLEARED BY THE DOCTOR!!!!!!!

And which doctor is that??? Bearing in mind it is documented that Hird went behind Reid’s back??

Doctor *smile* Who?? To be fair, I was a big Doctor Who fan when I was young. Tom Baker was my favourite.
 
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The Big Richo

Tiger Matchwinner
Aug 19, 2010
800
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The home of Dusty
They are not operating in a vacuum. Even a basic internet search would have given them enough info to know what they were doing was not acceptable. Ignorance is definitely no excuse in this case. While I generally appreciate your counterpoint, this argument is redundant in the internet era. At the very least he was negligent which is enough to ban him for life imo.

Sorry, I'm not sure who the 'they' and 'he' is there?

You mean Hird should have been using the internet to check on these guys? Like looking up substances wise? Or what a good program should be?
 

Scoop

Tiger Legend
Dec 8, 2004
22,665
8,565
Just read Don Pyke has said “no thanks” to Essendon. Next!

It's a boat race process. Everyone knows it. No one wants to go against Hird and run second.

This is proof that Essendon still believes Essendon have all the answers. The most arrogant club in history.
 
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Ridley

Tiger Legend
Jul 21, 2003
16,459
13,033
It's a boat race process. Everyone knows it. No one wants to go against Hird and run second.

This is proof that Essendon still believes Essendon have all the answers. The most arrogant club in history.
And long may it continue!
 
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fastin bulbous

I Dig Syd
Mar 30, 2010
3,482
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Darwin
Sorry, I'm not sure who the 'they' and 'he' is there?

You mean Hird should have been using the internet to check on these guys? Like looking up substances wise? Or what a good program should be?
I mean they ‘Essendon and other clubs’ he ‘hird’. Could access a banned substance list anytime. I didn’t know doesn’t cut it. But it’s all moot after viewing the above email from doc Reid. He knew.
 

Dont Argue

Tiger Champion
Jun 26, 2018
4,344
8,463
It's a boat race process. Everyone knows it. No one wants to go against Hird and run second.

This is proof that Essendon still believes Essendon have all the answers. The most arrogant club in history.
David King telling everyone at a football finals lunch that it’s a done deal.
Mathew Lloyd seemed to agree.
 
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Harry

Tiger Legend
Mar 2, 2003
23,920
10,377
Wonder how many players will request a trade out of there. Anyone we could target?
 
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jimbob

Tiger Superstar
Jul 20, 2008
1,667
559
Traralgon
It's a boat race process. Everyone knows it. No one wants to go against Hird and run second.

This is proof that Essendon still believes Essendon have all the answers. The most arrogant club in history.
It goes all the way back to the early days when they weren’t called the bombers. They were called the “same olds”.
 
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