Global Warming | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Global Warming

Althom

Tiger Superstar
Jul 23, 2016
1,175
1,027
I assume you have a backbone and invest your hard earned into it? When you say the Australian government needs to do this, what you really mean is the Australian government has to force everyone to invest into these industries whether they like it or not.
The Government already forces us to invest in various industries whether we like it or not. Subsidies to all forms of power generation, subsidies for diesel to mining and agriculture etc. etc.
Why would anyone object to shifting some of those subsidies away from dying technology or technology that cannot provide base load to something that has a future?
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,725
18,385
Melbourne
The writer saved his most strident criticism for Kean, a Liberal, then remarks that federal policy is not far removed from the state approaches he disapproves of. The purpose as I saw it was to point out the deteriorated state of the energy industry from the strong position of 20 years ago due to the zealous pushing of renewables without regard for the country's unique circumstances.

Yes it contains strong "anti-progressive" overtones, but that is secondary.

It also contains deliberate distortions of the facts, as I mentioned in regards Hazelwood, which was kept operating for years after it had reached the point where it should have been closed down as it had gone beyond its design life. But let's not get bogged down in facts, they're inconvenient to the right wing cheer squad that is most of the media, uninformed opinion clearly trumps facts (yes, pun intended).

DS
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
The Government already forces us to invest in various industries whether we like it or not. Subsidies to all forms of power generation, subsidies for diesel to mining and agriculture etc. etc.
Why would anyone object to shifting some of those subsidies away from dying technology or technology that cannot provide base load to something that has a future?
Because people object to subsidies in the first place.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,168
21,929
You are pushing the claim, I was just interested to know how well you understood your claim. It seems not very well.

I didn't make a claim. The Australian write claimed that Coal is non-subsidised. A very simple google search brings that article up from the IMF (a fairly trustworthy source I would think).
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,725
18,385
Melbourne
You can argue free market fundamentalism until the cows come home, meanwhile, climate change continues to have its impact.


DS
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
I didn't make a claim. The Australian write claimed that Coal is non-subsidised. A very simple google search brings that article up from the IMF (a fairly trustworthy source I would think).
Fair enough, you didn’t make the claim, you used the claim to dispute another claim and left it at that. I wouldn’t trust the IMF personally, if you feel you have provided sufficient intellectual rigour in this regard is then that’s all I was interested in. You seem to be someone that digs deeper into things so it was interesting you didn’t do so in this example.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,168
21,929
Fair enough, you didn’t make the claim, you used the claim to dispute another claim and left it at that. I wouldn’t trust the IMF personally, if you feel you have provided sufficient intellectual rigour in this regard is then that’s all I was interested in. You seem to be someone that digs deeper into things so it was interesting you didn’t do so in this example.

Funnily enough decided to do a bit more research into this to try and find out the breakdown. There seems to be fairly wide assumptions by various sources regarding what constitutes a subsidy so it might take a bit of time to review. I should get on with some work though haha
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
Funnily enough decided to do a bit more research into this to try and find out the breakdown. There seems to be fairly wide assumptions by various sources regarding what constitutes a subsidy so it might take a bit of time to review. I should get on with some work though haha
Yeah I don’t know the exact breakdown off the top of my head but I believe a decent chunk is fuel excise rebates, which are not subsidies even though that’s what people like to claim.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,168
21,929
Yeah I don’t know the exact breakdown off the top of my head but I believe a decent chunk is fuel excise rebates, which are not subsidies even though that’s what people like to claim.

Fuel excise is an interesting one. Its more a tax rebate to an extent but provided on consumption as opposed to a subsidy. Subsidies in this instance (reviewing energy policy) are only really useful when reviewing against alternatives, but there are little alternatives to using fuel / diesel in vehicles at this stage within Australia, so going down this route is difficult.

Where there are alternatives, like power generation then we should be reviewing power costs excluding subsidies to determine the best option to build our energy policies around, and these need to be 20-30 year projections largely due to shortages expected in that time of access to certain fuels which will inevitably push prices up. (ie. on a 5 year plan, coal may appear cheap, but towards the back end could end up very expensive).

In time, fuel excise should be rolled into this, as alternative fuels for vehicles such as hydrogen and electric cars (which for me at this stage are not clean, at least in Australia due to where grid power comes from), but at this stage agree fuel excise probably should be identified separately to other subsidies provided to the fossil fuel industry. The only argument you could provide on this, is instead of providing fuel excise duty so that it comes off consumption, but deal with this through tax reductions and removal of fuel excise duty and therefore allow people to make more informed decisions relating to the running costs of vehicles when making decisions on what vehicles to purchase and how much to run them.
 
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Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,840
12,048
Yeah I don’t know the exact breakdown off the top of my head but I believe a decent chunk is fuel excise rebates, which are not subsidies even though that’s what people like to claim.
do you know what percentage of 'renewable subsidies' comes in the form of tax breaks?
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,168
21,929
Reading up on what people determine a "subsidy" is very subjective.

For example, Matt Cannavan doesn't believe that Australia subsidies the coal industry, however the IMF report that I linked to above seems to include "For example, the IMF paper includes subsidising the costs of fuels used to extract resources, accelerated depreciation for assets and funding for fossil fuel export projects." I haven't yet found the breakdown of that IMF paper, but found that from this article.


Subsidies to reduce the cost of extraction, minimise tax through accelerated depreciation (as this has a significant benefit to NPV calculations) should absolutely be treated as subsidies.

On the other hand, its repeatedly stated that renewable subsidies also amount into the $bns however, Feed in tariffs are reported within this. This is only a "subsidy" because of the policy of the government and the setup of the industry. It has no impact on the systems or whether to install them, in any other way than saying that FIT should be paid by the retailer (not the government) and the government should just stipulate what the minimum FIT is.

My understanding of this (I used to own a house and received FIT's), is that the solar system is paid by the houseowner (there were at one time REC's which were definitely subsidies off the purchase price), who then continues to purchase energy off the grid from the local retailer at say 25-30c / kwh when they weren't producing from their system. When their system produces too much, those kwh's are sold back into the grid of the retailer who claims the FIT from the government and then reimburses that back to the homeowner. The retailer I believe can then sell that kwh back to homeowners at the stated 25-30c / kwh, so actually if the government just stayed out of this, this is cheap energy that retailers can purchase that is not from the distributors (in Melbourne there are only 2). Its absurb to report FIT's as a subsidy IMO.


The above report from the AFR reports on both, they do include FIT's as a subsidy, but even here there calculations are that:

"On a per megawatt hour basis, solar received the largest subsidies with $214, followed by wind on $74, while other renewable sources received $33 per megawatt hour. The report found subsidies to coal generation amounted to about 40 cents per megawatt hour, while generation from non-renewable sources overall were 30 cents per megawatt hour"
 

Giardiasis

Tiger Legend
Apr 20, 2009
6,906
1,314
Brisbane
The key distinction for me for what constitutes a subsidy is that it must involve forcibly redistributing wealth. Being permitted to keep your income is neither economically or ethically equivalent to that.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,168
21,929
None because tax breaks aren’t subsidies.

Really? Surely a subsidy is where a state or federal government provides any sort of financial assistance to an industry that isn't available to competing industries?

You promote free markets yet don't see any issue with preferential tax treatments of certain industries. Strange.