and as before we have kept adding CO2 to the atmosphere massively in 2020 - just slightly less than we did the year before and still more then we added per year a decade ago.
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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Global Warming
- Thread starter Disco08
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and as before we have kept adding CO2 to the atmosphere massively in 2020 - just slightly less than we did the year before and still more then we added per year a decade ago.
Your obsession with UN recommendations is strange - if the UN makes a good recommendation, follow it. If they don't, don't follow it.
Source for renewables being "prohibitively expensive on a national scale" - it's already competitive with coal/gas/nuclear and cheaper than building a new coal plant, much cheaper than nuclear. And the price is still falling at much higher rates than predicted. So yeah, source?
The UN wants to send us broke! OK not broke, but they want world financial parity and they're trying to force it via the climate change narrative. They have told you as much - it's in this thread. Google 'Ottmar Edenhofer' if you need a refresher.
I still don't think you grasp what is going on. Are you happy for Australians to experience a significant manufactured decline in our standard of living so that Africa, Asia and South America can prosper?
Why is their a decrease in our standard of living?
The NT government recently issued a roadmap to getting to a fairly sizeable renewable energy target.
Report here: https://roadmaptorenewables.nt.gov..../0008/573353/roadmap-to-renewables-report.pdf
Page 18 specifically states: "Through the reverse auction process (a competitive bidding process between government and commercial entities), the ACT Government has achieved the cheapest wind power ever contracted, at $73 / megawatt-hour (MWh) at Neoen’s Hornsdale 3 Wind Farm. The recent sale of the Stockyard Hill Wind Farm in Victoria led to Origin Energy contracting renewable energy from the project for less than $60 / MWh. Indicative modelling provided by industry representatives indicates that it is realistic to expect that, after taking into account the remoteness premium of the NT, as well as the additional costs associated with building in our challenging environment, contracted prices for energy from renewables plants will be in the order of $80-100 / MWH, and likely to reduce. "
At those rates, 60mwh is equivalent to 6c / kwh (plenty based upon what you or I pay as a consumer. My latest bil was about 25c / kwh (23c excluding GST) so if they are contracting it for between 6-10c / kwh (10c is the higher rate of what it would cost in the NT), then someone is making a heck of a lot out of consumers.
Page 22 shows the renewable sources capital costs against coal power. Clearly coal is out of the market. I was a bit disappointed to see that gas and oil power were not included in this table.
They have also included the attached table in their pathway showing reduction in energy costs to consumers.
Do those prices account for the cost of infrastructure? Renewables infrastructure is hideously expensive compared with traditional power stations due to transmission and distribution costs. There are other cost impacts e.g. ramping up traditional sources when the wind doesn't blow. The cost of generating renewable energy may have fallen sharply, but the cost of transmission has risen 50% in five years.
I'm not well read on this so I consider my rising electricity bill the best guide as more renewable energy enters the market. Germany and Denmark have been leaders in renewables uptake and have the highest electricity prices in the world.
Gia, help me out here!
The UN is a huge organisation, so just because some guy from the UN said something once doesn't mean that's the official mission of the UN. This is how conspiracy theorists make up theories. And the mechanisms to "manufacture decline" are not there - well, they are there in that we don't actually do much manufacturing anymore (pun intended). South Korea, China, and before them Japan did not need the UN to do that. India, SE Asia and Africa do not need the UN to kill us at garment manufacture. Those are the result of global capital, the relative costs of labour, etc etc.
The idea that the UN is pushing CC as a false narrative to punish developed nations is up there with the fantasies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the *smile* the likes of Qanon pumps out so yeah, I'm not impressed with that as a theory.
There is of course the deeper question of how the planet can sustain 9 billion people at the level of material wealth we currently experience as Australians. Short answer - it can't. But I leave that for another discussion.
I note you have no response to my question - where is your source for the claim that renewables are "prohibitively expensive" cf traditional methods.
I'll help you out. It's unambiguous
In the same interview he talks of the need to merge climate policy with development policy and rivers of cash flowing into Africa. Also how our lifestyles must change and how people in Europe believe they can stave off change by buying electric cars and how such an idea is "grotesque".
Why Are Renewable Resources More Expensive?
The Green Deal promises that renewable energy is completely possible within our lifetimes, but do countries ravaged by an economic disaster still have the available funding to take on this massive expense?
If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?
Between 2009 and 2017, the price of solar per watt declined by 75 percent while the price of wind declined by 50 percent. However, the places that deployed significant quantities of solar and wind saw their electricity prices rise dramatically. Here's why.
www.forbes.com
The World’s Energy Problem : Expensive Renewable Electricity
Renewable are causing electricity prices to increase?
medium.com
I'll help you out - he's one guy. He said that in an interview in 2010 where he also said the next climate change conference would "negotiate the redistribution of global wealth". Colour me pinko, but I can't recall the global redistribution of wealth happening in 2011, can you?
Why Are Renewable Resources More Expensive?
The Green Deal promises that renewable energy is completely possible within our lifetimes, but do countries ravaged by an economic disaster still have the available funding to take on this massive expense?www.greenmatters.com
If Solar And Wind Are So Cheap, Why Are They Making Electricity So Expensive?
Between 2009 and 2017, the price of solar per watt declined by 75 percent while the price of wind declined by 50 percent. However, the places that deployed significant quantities of solar and wind saw their electricity prices rise dramatically. Here's why.The World’s Energy Problem : Expensive Renewable Electricity
Renewable are causing electricity prices to increase?
Green Matters - propaganda site.
Medium is a blog site. Anyone can post whatever they like there.
Forbes article - written by Michael Shellenberger from Environmental Progress, a pro-nuclear power lobby. This is too easy. Forbes published a response here - good for them.
No, Wind And Solar Do Not Inherently Increase Electricity Prices
The claim that renewables are responsible for driving up electricity prices is just too simplistic.
www.forbes.com
I ask you again - where is the evidence that constructing renewable energy sources is "prohibitively expensive' cf with constructing traditional or nuclear plants?
I can only point to skyrocketing prices in countries that are leaders renewables generation. As said above, I'm not up to speed on it. If it's so cheap, why aren't China and India under more pressure to take it up instead of building hundreds on new coal plants?
It ain't the whole answer, because the coal stations are still needed as backup. It's additional cost.
Give me a written guarantee that my electricity prices will be cheaper and I won't be hit elsewhere (e.g. tax) and I will start pushing renewables myself. But I simply don't believe it.
Damn fine whataboutery there.
Let's be real though - yes, there will be costs due to reconfiguration of the grid to make it more amenable to renewables. The rapidly falling cost of renewables will offset that, i reckon pretty quickly, though that's just an opinion.
Going back to your friend Herr Whatsisname, on some things he's very very right. Just going to electric vehicles will do not a lot. And I note you've still built an elaborate fantasy about what the UN/IPCC is doing based on an interview this guy gave in 2010. Like a good conspiracy theorist you'll keep on believing that with no other evidence for the next 30 year though.
I am a lefty green socialist at heart - as I keep saying the planet cannot sustain 9 billion humans living in mcmansions with 3 SUVs and a new iphone and flatscreen every year. On that I agree 100% with the good Herr Edenhofer.
The owners of coal and oil wont be enthusiastic about climate change and a move to renewables. I would have thought that's pretty obvious. Their main sources of revenue will diminish.
And he's right, the current climate change debate has nothing to do with climate change. The deniers are those with the most to lose economically. Their focus is the economical impact of addressing climate change, not the damage that climate change will bring to future generations.
On electricity bill increases, see the below. Its essentially from a few years ago but still a good source.
www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au
"
This is actually a great image.
So essentially across the 10 year period reviewed, those who have delivered higher levels of wind and solar have resulted in the lowest increases to power bills for their states than those that did very little to grow wind and solar generation.
Also this is from the AER from Q4 2020.
www.aer.gov.au
"
Consumers | Clean Energy Council
More Australians are embracing the benefits of solar energy, battery storage and new energy tech to help them reduce their energy bills and emissions. The Clean Energy Council supports consumers to adopt clean energy through public advocacy, policy development and administration of consumer…
"
Why have prices risen in recent years?
A variety of different factors have contributed to price rises. Some of these include:- A lack of national energy policy beyond 2020. This means that business does not have the necessary certainty to invest in the new infrastructure needed to replace the old power plants which are retiring.
- Rising network costs were a big factor in price rises from 2007-2014, but have since fallen.
- Increased charges by energy retailers for winning and billing customers.
- The export of gas reducing the amount of gas available for local companies, which makes it more expensive. In some cases this means Australian gas is cheaper to buy in Japan than it is back home.
- The retirement of large old coal-fired power stations with not enough new power generation to replace them.
- Game playing by power plant operators in the wholesale electricity market and not enough competition to help reduce prices."
This is actually a great image.
So essentially across the 10 year period reviewed, those who have delivered higher levels of wind and solar have resulted in the lowest increases to power bills for their states than those that did very little to grow wind and solar generation.
Also this is from the AER from Q4 2020.
Wholesale charts | Australian Energy Regulator (AER)
View and download current charts and data from our wholesale market performance reports.
"
Electricity
- Q4 2020 prices (VWA) were lowest in South Australia ($35/MWh) and Victoria ($40/MWh), followed by Queensland ($48/MWh) and Tasmania ($46/MWh), with the highest quarterly prices occurring in NSW ($71/MWh).
- Prices exceeded $5000/MWh five times in NSW, increasing the quarterly price by $7/MWh.
- South Australia was the cheapest region in the NEM for the first time since 2012.
- Very low levels of demand and high renewable generation led to a record number of negative prices in South Australia and Victoria.
- For the week starting 6 December, weekly prices fell to their lowest level ever in South Australia ($3/MWh) and second lowest level ever in Victoria ($14/MWh).
- Victoria exported more energy in Q4 2020 than in any quarter since Q1 2017, particularly into NSW."
There are plenty of others, e..g.
They are literally out to change the world and want poor countries to be better off - improved health, fewer wars etc - at the expense of developed countries. And what's more the west must fund the green programs of so-called "undeveloped" countries like China, which is planning to send a man to the moon.
The Paris agreement is a dud for countries like ours, and Trump was right to withdraw from it. China will probably have started a global war by 2030 anyway.
NT uses gas for its electricity. So the 2019 costs are for gas.
The NT is pretty gung-ho about renewables right now. We are planning to supply Singapore with solar.
NT to build world's largest solar farm
www.google.com.au
Nowhere in the statement you quote does Figueres say that anything is at the expense of developed countries. The idea that life should be better for those in developing countries is not a problem as far as I am concerned, not quite sure why you have a problem with it.
China is the world's second largest economy now so, while there are still development issues, it is not defined as undeveloped. Also, China is the second largest contributor to the UN with 12% of total UN budget contributions. No idea where you get the idea that China is somehow being funded by the West.
Of course, we could ignore the damage we are doing by emitting fossil fuels and altering the chemical composition of the atmosphere, but that would be stupid.
You could also take the line ScoMo does that we need the technology first before setting goals (although this does not seem to be an issue with funding carbon capture and storage where the technology does not exist, has failed, but is still funded). This is the sort of attitude which has held Australia back for decades.
DS
It's a typical pattern. When challenged on the details of anything you revert to the UN global conspiracy mumbo-jumbo. Then throw in WW3 to complete the deck.
