No, it's about facts.
What alternative energy infrastructure can be plugged in faster and cheaper.
Facts, not opinions.
-
IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Global Warming
- Thread starter Disco08
- Start date
No, it's about facts.
What alternative energy infrastructure can be plugged in faster and cheaper.
Facts, not opinions.
Yep, that's the usual standard of argument about nuclear waste we expect from the nuclear shills. No idea.
As for the notion of recycling the waste, it is not recycling it is reprocessing and it does not reduce the waste, it dilutes the waste so you have the same amount of waste spread over more material.
Nuclear is a dead end . . . literally.
DS
I really have a lot of trouble understanding why the right wingers are so enamoured with nuclear power. Ignoring all the other issues, it makes no economic sense and the cost estimates of building nuclear power stations are always way below the actual cost, the usual rule of thumb is to add a zero to the estimate. Why this appeals to anyone is a mystery.
Just look at the economics. You can argue that the CSIRO estimates of the cost of a reactor is not accurate, ok, let's have a look at the real world, at real nuclear reactors being built:
In the UK over the past decade 3 reactors were proposed and never built: Moorside which (among other nuclear investments) almost led to the collapse of Toshiba, Wylfa which was abandoned by Hitachi after RWE NPower and E-on sold it to Hitachi because they couldn't make it viable (turns out neither could Hitachi), and Oldbury.
The only UK reactor going ahead is Hinkley, the first to be built since Sizewell B was turned on in 1995. The initial construction cost for Hinkley was £2billion and it was expected to be turned on in 2017. Current cost estimates are £46billion and completion expected in 2030 or 2031. That's over 20 times the original cost estimate and over a decade late, and remember, this is being built by the French energy company EDF which is one of the most experienced nuclear energy companies in the world, although it has to be said they had to be bailed out to the tune of €68billion because, well, the usual reason, nuclear makes no economic sense. All of this is before you factor in the massive subsidy Hinkley will get if it ever gets turned on as the UK government is guaranteeing to pay £92.50 at 2012 prices so add the inflation rate to that, for every MWh of power it generates, way over the cost of renewable energy. Sizewell C, the only other proposed nuclear reactor current in the UK is unlikely to happen at all.
In France the only reactor being built is Flammaville. Original cost was to be €3.3billion, now the cost is estimated to be €19.1billion. Construction commenced 17 years ago (remember, this is France, which has one of the largest nuclear industries, way way more experience than Australia) and it still isn't finished.
In the USA the situation is similar:
The VC Summer project in South Carolina commenced in 2013 . . . was abandoned in 2017. The cost for a nuclear power station which never happened was $US9billion. The initial cost estimate was $US11.5billion and by the time they gave up the estimated cost was $US25billion.
Westinghouse, the company which has been touting its AP1000 reactor (the VC Summer project above was meant to be 2 AP1000 reactors) filed for bankruptcy in 2017 largely as a consequence of the VC Summer project.
Westinghouse had claimed they could build an AP1000 reactor in 3 years. Westinghouse also claimed they could build an AP1000 for $US1.4billion. The only reactor project current in the USA is the Vogtle reactors in Georgia. This is 2 AP1000 reactors. The cost has been $US34billion or $US17billion per reactor, yep, more than 10 times the claim made by the nuclear industry.
If the CSIRO estimate for the cost of a reactor in Australia is inaccurate then the most likely inaccuracy is that they have massively underestimated the cost. The experience in the real world, as opposed to the fairyland the nuclear industry presents, clearly shows that nuclear energy always takes longer, and is multiple times more expensive than the estimates, usually over 10 times more expensive.
I really can't see the appeal and have no idea why right wingers are so enamoured with nukes, maybe they are just as silly as I always thought.
DS
Just look at the economics. You can argue that the CSIRO estimates of the cost of a reactor is not accurate, ok, let's have a look at the real world, at real nuclear reactors being built:
In the UK over the past decade 3 reactors were proposed and never built: Moorside which (among other nuclear investments) almost led to the collapse of Toshiba, Wylfa which was abandoned by Hitachi after RWE NPower and E-on sold it to Hitachi because they couldn't make it viable (turns out neither could Hitachi), and Oldbury.
The only UK reactor going ahead is Hinkley, the first to be built since Sizewell B was turned on in 1995. The initial construction cost for Hinkley was £2billion and it was expected to be turned on in 2017. Current cost estimates are £46billion and completion expected in 2030 or 2031. That's over 20 times the original cost estimate and over a decade late, and remember, this is being built by the French energy company EDF which is one of the most experienced nuclear energy companies in the world, although it has to be said they had to be bailed out to the tune of €68billion because, well, the usual reason, nuclear makes no economic sense. All of this is before you factor in the massive subsidy Hinkley will get if it ever gets turned on as the UK government is guaranteeing to pay £92.50 at 2012 prices so add the inflation rate to that, for every MWh of power it generates, way over the cost of renewable energy. Sizewell C, the only other proposed nuclear reactor current in the UK is unlikely to happen at all.
In France the only reactor being built is Flammaville. Original cost was to be €3.3billion, now the cost is estimated to be €19.1billion. Construction commenced 17 years ago (remember, this is France, which has one of the largest nuclear industries, way way more experience than Australia) and it still isn't finished.
In the USA the situation is similar:
The VC Summer project in South Carolina commenced in 2013 . . . was abandoned in 2017. The cost for a nuclear power station which never happened was $US9billion. The initial cost estimate was $US11.5billion and by the time they gave up the estimated cost was $US25billion.
Westinghouse, the company which has been touting its AP1000 reactor (the VC Summer project above was meant to be 2 AP1000 reactors) filed for bankruptcy in 2017 largely as a consequence of the VC Summer project.
Westinghouse had claimed they could build an AP1000 reactor in 3 years. Westinghouse also claimed they could build an AP1000 for $US1.4billion. The only reactor project current in the USA is the Vogtle reactors in Georgia. This is 2 AP1000 reactors. The cost has been $US34billion or $US17billion per reactor, yep, more than 10 times the claim made by the nuclear industry.
If the CSIRO estimate for the cost of a reactor in Australia is inaccurate then the most likely inaccuracy is that they have massively underestimated the cost. The experience in the real world, as opposed to the fairyland the nuclear industry presents, clearly shows that nuclear energy always takes longer, and is multiple times more expensive than the estimates, usually over 10 times more expensive.
I really can't see the appeal and have no idea why right wingers are so enamoured with nukes, maybe they are just as silly as I always thought.
DS
I am nowhere near an expert on this sort of thing so I tend to stay out of the discussion but there is one thing about the future of energy sources that I have always struggled to understand which is mentioned in your post. Why is it that energy has become political, right wing vs left wing?
The fact is that all countries, developed and under developed, need to secure energy sources for the future and to me it should be about 4 things only.
- Sustainability- long term solutions versus short term fixes (that's not to say the short term is not important whilst the long term is put in place)
- Economics - what is the best financial decision. Businesses make ROI decisions all the time, why is this seemingly so hard?
- Safety - Like any major economic decision there is a risk calculation that gets factored in
- Environmental- same process as safety
I may not be 100% right with these but it can't be too far off the mark, so why is any of this political? What have any of these 4 things got to do with politics? There are probably multiple reasons but to me none of them are good reasons.
I also believe that in Australia energy policy is so important it should be as close to bipartisan as we can get but we don't have good enough politicians for that to happen.
A big reason it becomes political is due to lobbyists and vested interests. Its interesting that the National Party supposedly represents rural interests yet farmers are one of the groups most affected by climate change.
You are correct I am sure that it is a big reason but it is of course a really bad reason. These decisions are amongst the most important our governments will make over the next 10 years
It's political because politics is tied to big oil lobbying, and to a lesser extent nuclear lobbying. Just to be fair, you could say that climate change advocates are also lobbying.
Right Wing politicians are happy to take big oil lobbying money and their latest tactic is to use nuclear as a trojan horse or spoiler. Dutton and his crew know nuclear is never going to feasible here but it fires up the dumb culture warriors as we've seen. The goal is to continue the reliance on fossil fuels for as long as possible.
So nuclear fission is dying - too expensive and too slow to build. Even Willo knows this hence his pathetic weak switch to "oh it's all just opinions" - because he knows he can't win on actual costs or timeline.
Fusion would be great, if it ever can be built.
So what this says is that right wing politicians are willing to take fossil fuel lobbying money and left wing ones aren't. There may be some truth in that but I don't believe it is totally true
Anyway it pisses me off. Just make the right decisions for the right reasons, that's what we elect you to do. ( rant)
Yeah for sure, but the culture war around this is driven by predominantly right wing politicians or even centrists. Just look at Dutton in Australia.
Weird thing is it will win him no votes either in the bush or in the old blue ribbon lib seats in leafy suburbs as nuclear posturing is toxic to middle class centrist voters.
Dutton wants to make Australia a polarised culture war political environment like the US but Australians won't buy that.
We have compulsory voting so any hard core base can't get enough votes to win, and Australians generally don't care enough about politics to go full on MAGA or even hard leftie.
Yeah, wrong thread but it is why Dutton will never be PM.
Not sure why the Libs don’t see it. Maybe because some of them live in an echo chamber !
You almost had me believing in gas, until this point. Nothing is more outrageous than the stand rule. NOTHING.
The answer is simple -cost per mWh. This is whole of lifecycle cost. You've been told this before but facts don't seem to matter to you.
If you have alternative estimated costs, provide them.
I see you keep claiming to have provided alt costings - are they in mWh for whole of lifecycle? Or is it just your usual "will cost billions" guff?
Cmon pal, where's your argument? And what about about build time?
So you don't understand that mWh is a whole of lifecycle costing. Or you don't understand what whole of lifecycle means.
Either you dont know what you are talking about or you are a troll.
Went back ten pages, nothing from you on actual costs - a bunch of statements from saying "those costs are BS" though.
I'll ask you again - if you are concerned about brownouts and cost to tax payers, come up with nuclear build timelines and costs in Australia that beat renewables.
Put up or shut up Willo.
I came across this article. Completely shocked that they rely on diesel generators for their electricity needs in the Daintree.
So much for “the environment”. Where’s Albo, the lefties and the greenies outrage on this.
Surely they could run a HV power line from Cairns. I wonder what the cost would be? $18.5 million for a micro grid?
Pristine rainforest, 'dirty' power: The diesel vs solar energy debate raging inside the Daintree
In short: Queensland's Daintree Rainforest does not have mains electricity, and a "microgrid" project designed to power homes and businesses in the region has been stalled.
In the meantime, many residents are burning hundreds of litres of diesel fuel a week to keep their businesses running, while some locals are concerned the microgrid could urbanise the area.
What's next? The company behind the microgrid says it hopes to start construction next April.
So with rainfall measured in metres, how will the solar panels charge up batteries there?
Pristine rainforest, 'dirty' power: The diesel vs solar energy debate raging inside the Daintree
In short: Queensland's Daintree Rainforest does not have mains electricity, and a "microgrid" project designed to power homes and businesses in the region has been stalled.
In the meantime, many residents are burning hundreds of litres of diesel fuel a week to keep their businesses running, while some locals are concerned the microgrid could urbanise the area.
What's next? The company behind the microgrid says it hopes to start construction next April.
British naturalist Sir David Attenborough called it the "most extraordinary place on earth".
The globally renowned rainforest and crystal-clear waterways of the World Heritage-listed Daintree in Far North Queensland attract hundreds of thousands of tourists each year.
But it often shocks visitors to hear that many hotels and businesses in the area burn hundreds of litres of diesel fuel each week to stay open.
"The Europeans especially are absolutely horrified," local hotel owner Mark Cromwell said.
Despite having a permanent population of about 800 people, there is no mains power in the Daintree, just a two-hour drive north of Cairns.
It was a decision made by the Queensland government in the 1990s to help control development and over-population in the world's oldest surviving rainforest.
But in 2012, the government's Daintree Policy was repealed, allowing residents and businesses to install their own isolated networks with approval from the energy regulator.
The federal government took that a step forward in 2022 and signed off on a $18.75 million funding deal for a renewable-energy microgrid, which would include an 8-megawatt solar farm and power delivered to homes and businesses via underground cabling.
The government promised power by 2024 in a statement by then-assistant minister for industry, energy and emissions reduction, Tim Wilson.
But construction is yet to start on the microgrid and just a fraction of the money has been allocated to the Brisbane-based Volt Advisory to deliver the project, which the government promised would create 200 jobs.
In a statement, the Federal Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water said $1.55 million of the $18.75 million grant had been paid to the Volt Advisory Group.
"The only site work that has taken place is surveying," the statement said.
"Due to confidentiality requirements that apply to all Commonwealth grants, the department is unable to comment on the terms of the grant agreement with Volt Advisory."
The project also needed additional private funding to go ahead — Volt Advisory has not confirmed how much exactly — but no investors have been announced yet.
Scott Dwyer, from the Institute for Sustainable Futures at the University of Technology Sydney, said while microgrids offered a practical solution for tourism communities with seasonal influxes of visitors that put strain on the electricity grid, the systems were complex and expensive.
"Microgrids are in the very early stages in Australia … there's still a lot of uncertainty around the regulatory hurdles and business models as well," Dr Dwyer said.
"It's for those reasons they can be hard to attract investors to."
Green power getting dirty
Mark Cromwell, who owns and operates a luxury lodge in the area, burns about 400 litres of diesel a day in the summer months to power air conditioners, fridges and wastewater treatment plants.
Even when there are no tourists, he still uses 250 litres of fuel a day just to keep the place running, he estimates.
"It is quite an embarrassing thing to have to rely on a generator," Mr Cromwell said.
"We would love to have solar and a battery but it's a $1.3 million investment, it's just not affordable.
Further down the road, 89-year-old Betty Hinton, a renowned botanical artist, has been running her Floravilla Ice Creamery since the 1980s, producing 60 flavours of biodynamic, organic ice cream.
She switches between two diesel-powered generators that she services herself to make and keep her products cool, at a cost of $2,500 in fuel a month.
"Ice cream doesn't like to be melted down and I've learned how to run my freezers so that I never lost an ice cream," Ms Hinton said.
"It would be nice to not have to lift 200-litre drums of oil … it's just sheer determination that keeps me going and the thought of that microgrid going in one day."
While many tourism and business operators in the Daintree support the microgrid project, others in the small community do not.
A 2019 KPMG report commissioned by the Queensland Government examining the viability of a microgrid in the area concluded "microgrid-based solutions do not appear to be the right long-term solution for the Daintree".
"A microgrid would supply residents with a reliable and secure energy network, however it presents numerous technical and commercial risks and is likely to be financially unviable without significant up-front and ongoing government support," the report said.
The report instead recommended investing more in establishing or improving stand-alone power options for individual homes.
Concerns about urbanising rainforest
Former local mayor Mike Berwick said while the microgrid would not have a "direct impact on the environment itself", he raised concerns about it opening the area up to urbanisation.
"It's the secondary impact of further driving development in a place where we really ought to be promoting the conservation values," Mr Berwick said.
Despite these concerns, Volt Advisory's director Richard Schoenemann said the "bulk of people" in the Daintree supported the project.
"They need it," he said.
"It's expensive, it's polluting, and it doesn't fit in with the sustainable frame of mind that people like to put forward in the Daintree."
He said the company hoped to start construction on the microgrid next April and was in talks with several investors and construction companies.
"We have a tremendous amount of support, especially from the resorts and the business owners up there who need a better solution," he said.
"People will see the merit."
Sydneysiders go off-grid
Peter and Gina Tsigris and their five children, aged seven to 14, embarked on a road trip from their home at Marrickville in Sydney, eventually ending up in the Daintree Rainforest in 2017.
They fell in love with the area's natural beauty and bought a 24-acre property in 2021, where they now run their Daintree Fan Palm Farm and cafe.
"When we bought the place, there was nothing — even the generator wasn't working so we had to start from scratch," Ms Tsigris said.
The couple installed a solar system and batteries at a cost of about $100,000 but occasionally have to rely on a generator for their energy needs, in an area that counts its annual rainfall in metres.
She said they remained "neutral" about the microgrid project.
"Around about the time we moved in, there were people saying by April 2024, power was going to be guaranteed, but we're still holding meetings and talking about it," she said.
"Who knows if it's if it's even going to come to pass?"
apple.news
So much for “the environment”. Where’s Albo, the lefties and the greenies outrage on this.
Surely they could run a HV power line from Cairns. I wonder what the cost would be? $18.5 million for a micro grid?
Pristine rainforest, 'dirty' power: The diesel vs solar energy debate raging inside the Daintree
In short: Queensland's Daintree Rainforest does not have mains electricity, and a "microgrid" project designed to power homes and businesses in the region has been stalled.
In the meantime, many residents are burning hundreds of litres of diesel fuel a week to keep their businesses running, while some locals are concerned the microgrid could urbanise the area.
What's next? The company behind the microgrid says it hopes to start construction next April.
So with rainfall measured in metres, how will the solar panels charge up batteries there?
Pristine rainforest, 'dirty' power: The diesel vs solar energy debate raging inside the Daintree
In short: Queensland's Daintree Rainforest does not have mains electricity, and a "microgrid" project designed to power homes and businesses in the region has been stalled.
In the meantime, many residents are burning hundreds of litres of diesel fuel a week to keep their businesses running, while some locals are concerned the microgrid could urbanise the area.
What's next? The company behind the microgrid says it hopes to start construction next April.
British naturalist Sir David Attenborough called it the "most extraordinary place on earth".
The globally renowned rainforest and crystal-clear waterways of the World Heritage-listed Daintree in Far North Queensland attract hundreds of thousands of tourists each year.
But it often shocks visitors to hear that many hotels and businesses in the area burn hundreds of litres of diesel fuel each week to stay open.
"The Europeans especially are absolutely horrified," local hotel owner Mark Cromwell said.
Despite having a permanent population of about 800 people, there is no mains power in the Daintree, just a two-hour drive north of Cairns.
It was a decision made by the Queensland government in the 1990s to help control development and over-population in the world's oldest surviving rainforest.
But in 2012, the government's Daintree Policy was repealed, allowing residents and businesses to install their own isolated networks with approval from the energy regulator.
The federal government took that a step forward in 2022 and signed off on a $18.75 million funding deal for a renewable-energy microgrid, which would include an 8-megawatt solar farm and power delivered to homes and businesses via underground cabling.
The government promised power by 2024 in a statement by then-assistant minister for industry, energy and emissions reduction, Tim Wilson.
But construction is yet to start on the microgrid and just a fraction of the money has been allocated to the Brisbane-based Volt Advisory to deliver the project, which the government promised would create 200 jobs.
In a statement, the Federal Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water said $1.55 million of the $18.75 million grant had been paid to the Volt Advisory Group.
"The only site work that has taken place is surveying," the statement said.
"Due to confidentiality requirements that apply to all Commonwealth grants, the department is unable to comment on the terms of the grant agreement with Volt Advisory."
The project also needed additional private funding to go ahead — Volt Advisory has not confirmed how much exactly — but no investors have been announced yet.
Scott Dwyer, from the Institute for Sustainable Futures at the University of Technology Sydney, said while microgrids offered a practical solution for tourism communities with seasonal influxes of visitors that put strain on the electricity grid, the systems were complex and expensive.
"Microgrids are in the very early stages in Australia … there's still a lot of uncertainty around the regulatory hurdles and business models as well," Dr Dwyer said.
"It's for those reasons they can be hard to attract investors to."
Green power getting dirty
Mark Cromwell, who owns and operates a luxury lodge in the area, burns about 400 litres of diesel a day in the summer months to power air conditioners, fridges and wastewater treatment plants.
Even when there are no tourists, he still uses 250 litres of fuel a day just to keep the place running, he estimates.
"It is quite an embarrassing thing to have to rely on a generator," Mr Cromwell said.
"We would love to have solar and a battery but it's a $1.3 million investment, it's just not affordable.
Further down the road, 89-year-old Betty Hinton, a renowned botanical artist, has been running her Floravilla Ice Creamery since the 1980s, producing 60 flavours of biodynamic, organic ice cream.
She switches between two diesel-powered generators that she services herself to make and keep her products cool, at a cost of $2,500 in fuel a month.
"Ice cream doesn't like to be melted down and I've learned how to run my freezers so that I never lost an ice cream," Ms Hinton said.
"It would be nice to not have to lift 200-litre drums of oil … it's just sheer determination that keeps me going and the thought of that microgrid going in one day."
While many tourism and business operators in the Daintree support the microgrid project, others in the small community do not.
A 2019 KPMG report commissioned by the Queensland Government examining the viability of a microgrid in the area concluded "microgrid-based solutions do not appear to be the right long-term solution for the Daintree".
"A microgrid would supply residents with a reliable and secure energy network, however it presents numerous technical and commercial risks and is likely to be financially unviable without significant up-front and ongoing government support," the report said.
The report instead recommended investing more in establishing or improving stand-alone power options for individual homes.
Concerns about urbanising rainforest
Former local mayor Mike Berwick said while the microgrid would not have a "direct impact on the environment itself", he raised concerns about it opening the area up to urbanisation.
"It's the secondary impact of further driving development in a place where we really ought to be promoting the conservation values," Mr Berwick said.
Despite these concerns, Volt Advisory's director Richard Schoenemann said the "bulk of people" in the Daintree supported the project.
"They need it," he said.
"It's expensive, it's polluting, and it doesn't fit in with the sustainable frame of mind that people like to put forward in the Daintree."
He said the company hoped to start construction on the microgrid next April and was in talks with several investors and construction companies.
"We have a tremendous amount of support, especially from the resorts and the business owners up there who need a better solution," he said.
"People will see the merit."
Sydneysiders go off-grid
Peter and Gina Tsigris and their five children, aged seven to 14, embarked on a road trip from their home at Marrickville in Sydney, eventually ending up in the Daintree Rainforest in 2017.
They fell in love with the area's natural beauty and bought a 24-acre property in 2021, where they now run their Daintree Fan Palm Farm and cafe.
"When we bought the place, there was nothing — even the generator wasn't working so we had to start from scratch," Ms Tsigris said.
The couple installed a solar system and batteries at a cost of about $100,000 but occasionally have to rely on a generator for their energy needs, in an area that counts its annual rainfall in metres.
She said they remained "neutral" about the microgrid project.
"Around about the time we moved in, there were people saying by April 2024, power was going to be guaranteed, but we're still holding meetings and talking about it," she said.
"Who knows if it's if it's even going to come to pass?"
Burning hundreds of litres of diesel just to stay open: Welcome to the rainforest without electricity — ABC News
In short: Queensland's Daintree Rainforest does not have mains electricity, and a "microgrid" project designed to power homes and businesses in the region has been stalled. In the meantime, many residents are burning hundreds of litres of diesel fuel a week to keep their businesses running...
China
>
