Global Warming

[Tiger74]

I was joking to make a point 74. I'm from Ballarat and I know Melton intimately, unfortunately.

Figured as much, hence the hash brownie line

Edited to remove excess quotes. No quotonator tennis please.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

How many man-made pollutants caused this?
How did the human race do this?

They were mentioned in my summary. CO2, methane, etc.

Read up on the carbon cycle Livers. We did it by converting the carbon that had been stored in the form of hydrocarbons for millions of years back into gaseous CO2 in our atmsophere. As Disco pointed out these gases trap the heat in leading to an overall increase in temperature globally. Due to localised climate patterns these changes can be masked or appear minor, however if you look at the overall data it is clear, as the scientific community put it, unequivocally, that global temperatures are on the rise. We have rapidly altered the earth's atmosphere and now we are starting to see the first effects of this on our climate.

You see, the Earth, throughout time, has gone through massive changes, such as going from the coldest its been, to the hottest its been, and here we are somewhere in the middle, and because over the last 200 years of records (a split second in this history of this planet!), we note that the temperature has risen 0.01 of a degree or something, then all of a sudden, we have to change the way we live, because it is US who drives the climate of this planet?
What a load of garbage.

This is a caricature of the argument. Would you like to cite your sources for these supposed claims. The global scientific consensus (something that is difficult to achieve on such a politically charged topic) is clear - the climate is changing and humans are almost definitely the cause of the change. This change will almost definitely have negative effects on many countries (and their economies) as a result. Keep you head buried in the sand Livers, it will most likely be our children or their children that have to try to find a way out of this anyway.

Mother Nature is far more powerful when it comes to our climate, and she didn't need any help going from the Ice Age to the Iron Age in the past, or to break all the continents into separate entities, so to think that what we, the human race, what we are doing is making a big difference to the future climate of this planet, is quite arrogant, I think.

Argument through incredulity....not very convincing. How about some real data to support your claims. What do the Ice Ages and the Iron Age have to with each other? Nothing. What do plate tectonics have to do with climate change? Nothing.

What I find arrogant is your dismissal of the consensus of the scientific community with no reason other than your incredulity.

 

[ssstone]

global warming my arse :rofl :rofl in the seventies it was lead petrol that was going to kill us,so lets invest in lead free cars and petrol and guess what?? lead levels continue to rise.in the eighties it was areosol cans that were going to kill us via the hole in the ozone,of course it was the cans making the holes not the numerous amount of space craft and sattielites we were sending thru it.in the nineties it was the rainforests,the lungs of the world we had to save .and now its global warming that is creating HYSTERIA amongst our learned ,CHICKEN LITTLES all this new hysteria will do is drain your wallet so you can all feel warm and fuzzy and absolve your self of any guilt can someone please help me understand how silverchair and the finger planting trees is going to to compensate for the dirty coal electricity they will use,the aviation fuel,the diesal and the chopping down of trees to make guitars,tickets and programes oh and lets not forget they might like to partake of a tbone steak courtesy of a gas belching cow .pleeeese what hypocrosiy and doesnt the doyen of alarmists al gore live in a house that chews power like some small country towns ?the fear factor that some ppl need to live is amazing.and i thought the bible was the biggest con of all time :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

 

[Disco08]

You obviously think that all the effects that we are already seeing are figments of the imagination then?

 

[ssstone]

You obviously think that all the effects that we are already seeing are figments of the imagination then?

yep in my unlearned opinion disco just as humans have evolved from 5 foot nothins to 6 foot plus as the door frame hieght in any old castle in europe will show you,the world will also evolve ,apparrently we had an ice age once so in my unlearned opinion this tells me that the earth also heated up ?? how did those frisky crocadiles survive ?if the people in this country who waste so much energy trying to put the fear into the unlearned on this topic put the same energy/monies into harvesting rainfall that we waste from catching it on roofs and roads and pissing it off in to port phillip bay then i would be impressed.but that would be doing something constructive wouldnt it :hihi

 

[Tiger74]

You obviously think that all the effects that we are already seeing are figments of the imagination then?

yep in my unlearned opinion disco just as humans have evolved from 5 foot nothins to 6 foot plus as the door frame hieght in any old castle in europe will show you,the world will also evolve

I think that has more to do with eating more quality food than evolution

 

[Freezer]

We have seen, or more accurately, we have scientific proof, that during the history of this planet, we have NATURALLY changed over time.
There was an Ice Age, yet what man-made gases and emisssions caused the planet to heat up to such an extent, that all this ice eventually melted?
None.
It happened NATURALLY, and for all we know now, we are at the very start of a NATURAL era

No Livers, all we knows shows us that we are NOT at the start of another natural era (scientists have graphs of temperature patterns over 650 000 years that conclusively show this). Ice ages are caused when the earth is furthest from the sun and the ice melts as it draws closer, hence the obvious patterns. What we know is that humans have increased the amount of carbon in the atmosphere by over a third in the last 3 decades, an occurance that would normally take many thousands of years. We also know that carbon traps heat. These gases let in light but keep heat from escaping, kind of like a greenhouse .

But Disco, don't humans only contribute around 1.5 - 2.0% of the carbon entering the atmosphere? (I'm not being a smarta*se - I've heard these are the numbers but I don't really know.)

 

[ssstone]

You obviously think that all the effects that we are already seeing are figments of the imagination then?

yep in my unlearned opinion disco just as humans have evolved from 5 foot nothins to 6 foot plus as the door frame hieght in any old castle in europe will show you,the world will also evolve

I think that has more to do with eating more quality food than evolution

ah a bit of pesticide wont hurt ya. :hihi but that is my point we live longer,are bigger and healthier because like the crocs and ole mother earth we have adapted.remember the learned persons of yesteryear also claimed the earth was flat and 80 mph in a motor buggy would kill you. ;D

 

[Disco08]

But Disco, don't humans only contribute around 1.5 - 2.0% of the carbon entering the atmosphere? (I'm not being a smarta*se - I've heard these are the numbers but I don't really know.)

If that were true then there would only be a small rise in the total amount of carbon in the atmosphere from the levels observed before indutrialisation, instead of the actual figures which show this trend:

Not to mention the fact that carbon levels are at a 650 000 year high and rising.

 

[Disco08]

yep in my unlearned opinion disco just as humans have evolved from 5 foot nothins to 6 foot plus as the door frame hieght in any old castle in europe will show you,the world will also evolve ,apparrently we had an ice age once so in my unlearned opinion this tells me that the earth also heated up ?? how did those frisky crocadiles survive ?if the people in this country who waste so much energy trying to put the fear into the unlearned on this topic put the same energy/monies into harvesting rainfall that we waste from catching it on roofs and roads and pissing it off in to port phillip bay then i would be impressed.but that would be doing something constructive wouldnt it :hihi

The world isn't really evolving at all. It follows patterns quite predictably.

You're right that the earth has seen ice ages (ice cores show it has one every 100000 years or so with warmer periods between them lasting 10000 years or so) and must also heat up. The problem is that it's not actually in a heating up phase right now, as the last ice age was about 110000 years ago and the world was at it's warmest about 6000 years ago, as Liverpool pointed out. The point is that all the glaciers that we see melting, lakes drying up, sea levels rising really shouldn't be happening at all.

 

[ssstone]

yep in my unlearned opinion disco just as humans have evolved from 5 foot nothins to 6 foot plus as the door frame hieght in any old castle in europe will show you,the world will also evolve ,apparrently we had an ice age once so in my unlearned opinion this tells me that the earth also heated up ?? how did those frisky crocadiles survive ?if the people in this country who waste so much energy trying to put the fear into the unlearned on this topic put the same energy/monies into harvesting rainfall that we waste from catching it on roofs and roads and pissing it off in to port phillip bay then i would be impressed.but that would be doing something constructive wouldnt it :hihi

The world isn't really evolving at all. It follows patterns quite predictably.

You're right that the earth has seen ice ages (ice cores show it has one every 100000 years or so with warmer periods between them lasting 10000 years or so) and must also heat up. The problem is that it's not actually in a heating up phase right now, as the last ice age was about 110000 years ago and the world was at it's warmest about 6000 years ago, as Liverpool pointed out. The point is that all the glaciers that we see melting, lakes drying up, sea levels rising really shouldn't be happening at all.

disco so long as every major city in the world keeps pumping rain water caught on roads and roofs into the sea it will continue to rise it has nothing to do with "GLOBAL " WARMING"

 

[Disco08]

Does that melt glaciers and dry up lakes too?

 

[Freezer]

yep in my unlearned opinion disco just as humans have evolved from 5 foot nothins to 6 foot plus as the door frame hieght in any old castle in europe will show you,the world will also evolve ,apparrently we had an ice age once so in my unlearned opinion this tells me that the earth also heated up ?? how did those frisky crocadiles survive ?if the people in this country who waste so much energy trying to put the fear into the unlearned on this topic put the same energy/monies into harvesting rainfall that we waste from catching it on roofs and roads and pissing it off in to port phillip bay then i would be impressed.but that would be doing something constructive wouldnt it :hihi

The world isn't really evolving at all. It follows patterns quite predictably.

You're right that the earth has seen ice ages (ice cores show it has one every 100000 years or so with warmer periods between them lasting 10000 years or so) and must also heat up. The problem is that it's not actually in a heating up phase right now, as the last ice age was about 110000 years ago and the world was at it's warmest about 6000 years ago, as Liverpool pointed out. The point is that all the glaciers that we see melting, lakes drying up, sea levels rising really shouldn't be happening at all.

disco so long as every major city in the world keeps pumping rain water caught on roads and roofs into the sea it will continue to rise it has nothing to do with "GLOBAL " WARMING"

But Sharon, that's cyclical. The rain water feeds into the sea, evaporates into the atmosphere and falls as rain again - no net loss or gain. The pollutants that it carries into the sea are the actual problem in your scenario.

 

[tigersnake]

in the seventies it was lead petrol that was going to kill us,so lets invest in lead free cars and petrol and guess what?? lead levels continue to rise.in the eighties it was areosol cans that were going to kill us via the hole in the ozone,of course it was the cans making the holes not the numerous amount of space craft and sattielites we were sending thru it.in the nineties it was the rainforests,the lungs of the world we had to save .and now its global warming that is creating time

You can tack on all the little ROFLs you want ssssingle bed. I don't know where you get your info from. Airborne lead is very bad for you, it was phased out of petrol, lead levels in the atmostphere, and in fatty tissue of humans, has plummetted.

Also, the ozone layer was being rapidly depleted by chloro-flouro carbons that were in fridges and earosol cans, they were banned and phased out, the ozone layer is now rapidly re-generating at a rate faster than any scientist ever would have predicted.

Gues what? we can still drive around in cars, spray our deodorant to stop us stinking, and keep our stubbies cold. Incredible.

Two take home messages here:

1. If we take action to fix things once we realise their effects are bad, we can fix it. SSSingle bed has actually brought up two of the best examples.

2. Make sure you verify any information offered by SSSSingle bed.

 

[evo]

disco so long as every major city in the world keeps pumping rain water caught on roads and roofs into the sea it will continue to rise it has nothing to do with "GLOBAL " WARMING"

But Sharon, that's cyclical. The rain water feeds into the sea, evaporates into the atmosphere and falls as rain again - no net loss or gain.

Yeah,that one gave me a good laugh too,freezer. ;D

 

[Liverpool]

I reckon arrogance is believing we have some inherent right to waste resources. Arrogant and slack arsed. I believe that you Liverpool, are an arrogant slack-arsed buffoon, but kind of entertaining in a wierd way.

I've been called worse Tigersnake.
I don't think you'll get many points for that one. :

Yep lots of vested interests. I'm a bit bewildered in those saying vested interests on both sides though. You have to look at what those vested interests are based on. The fossill fuel industries interests are based on profit for them, the environmentalist side is based on making the world a cleaner, more sustainable place for all.

:rofl
Rubbish!
While I agree with you that many manufacturing corporations have their best interests elsewhere apart from the environment, your idea that the environmentalist side have their interests on 'making the world a cleaner and sustainable place to live' ....is naive, at very best.

GreenPeace, the "grandaddy of the tree-huggers" is as large as any multinational company, with the only difference being that their product they are selling to the unscrupulous public is that of 'saving the world', whether it be animals, trees, or the latest fad....."climate change".

While Exxon have tankers and oil-rigs....GreenPeace have their own small naval fleet of ships dotted around the world, and also a small aviation fleet of helicopters.

If you asked 100 people who the leader of GreenPeace is, I'm tipping 99 of them wouldn't have a clue, yet they rake in millions of $$$ a year, which goes where? To save some trees in South America? To save some whales in Antarctica?
Yeah, right! :-X

GreenPeace is as corrupt as any government....and it's ironic that GreenPeace, something that was aimed at being the opposite of everything "big business" had to offer, such as the Exxons of this world, are no different to them in reality....only the product is different.

As the co-founder of GreenPeace, Paul Watson, once said:
"The secret to David McTaggart's success is the secret to Greenpeace's success: It doesn't matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true.... You are what the media define you to be. [Greenpeace] became a myth, and a myth-generating machine."

http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Movements/Greenpeace/ge-ar-gr.htm

Read the article Tigersnake...I may be a "slack arsed buffoon" as you called me, but at least I'm not a naive slack-arsed buffoon.

 

[Liverpool]

How many man-made pollutants caused this?
How did the human race do this?

They were mentioned in my summary. CO2, methane, etc.

Read up on the carbon cycle Livers. We did it by converting the carbon that had been stored in the form of hydrocarbons for millions of years back into gaseous CO2 in our atmsophere. As Disco pointed out these gases trap the heat in leading to an overall increase in temperature globally. Due to localised climate patterns these changes can be masked or appear minor, however if you look at the overall data it is clear, as the scientific community put it, unequivocally, that global temperatures are on the rise. We have rapidly altered the earth's atmosphere and now we are starting to see the first effects of this on our climate.

The questions you quoted here were aimed at the links I provided in the same post.

I've never doubted that the world is getting warmer.
I agree with you all on that, and it has never been my argument.
However, my argument is that I think the slight change in temperature we are going through is no different to the many climate changes we have had in the past, when man-made gases and emissions did NOT exist, and that we are overstating our role in this small change, yet undervaluing Mother Nature, and her role in this change.

So again I ask yourself:
How many man-made pollutants caused this in the following examples?
How did the human race do this to the following?

Studying sea level changes in corals and organic materials from Vietnam and Barbados, scientists concluded that an influx of freshwater from the Antarctic 14,000 years ago increased sea levels by an average of 66 feet (20 meters) over 200 years, about 100 times faster than today. There is evidence that debris was coming off the Antarctic as a result of the melting of the ice sheet.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0317_030317_iceshelf.html

The Earth probably reached its warmest about 5,000 or 6,000 years ago. At this time the temperature would have been on average about 2C (3.6F) warmer than the present day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/understanding/iceage_01.shtml

Today, scientists believe that 200 million years ago the Earth's continents were joined together to form one gigantic supercontinent, called Pangaea. As the rock plates that the continents sit on moved, the supercontinent broke up and began to move apart.

http://kids.earth.nasa.gov/archive/pangaea/evidence.html

Argument through incredulity....not very convincing. How about some real data to support your claims. What do the Ice Ages and the Iron Age have to with each other? Nothing. What do plate tectonics have to do with climate change? Nothing.

My point being that if Mother Nature can change the Earth's climate without human help from the Ice Age to the Iron Age....and that 'she' can split whole continents without human intervention, then what is making everyone so sure, that the Earth's temperature has much to do with us at all?
Because some scientists with vested interests in gaining Government grants, or millions of $$$ from some company wanting to get good publicity by looking like they are being 'green'?

 

[jb03]

The world isn't really evolving at all. It follows patterns quite predictably.

Geez Patsy, I've just read 220 odd pages on the Christianity thread being convinced by that evolution is the key to humankind.

Now, where are those young earth creationist links.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

My point being that if Mother Nature can change the Earth's climate without human help from the Ice Age to the Iron Age....and that 'she' can split whole continents without human intervention, then what is making everyone so sure, that the Earth's temperature has much to do with us at all?
Because some scientists with vested interests in gaining Government grants, or millions of $$$ from some company wanting to get good publicity by looking like they are being 'green'?

Some scientists? How about the consensus of global climate science? Historically they have been notoriously conservative in their conclusions. Yet they state with 90% certainty that the current change in climate that we are observing is due to human activity.

Now, should I believe you with your text book neo-con outlook or the consensus of the scientific community?

Did you read Disco's post on long term climatic trends? We should still be cooling since our last peak (that you pointed out was a few centuries back), but no, temperatures are climbing again. Perhaps it is the unprecedented levels of greenhouse gases that we have pumped into the atmosphere since the beginning of the industrial revolution?

 

[Disco08]

Geez Patsy, I've just read 220 odd pages on the Christianity thread being convinced by that evolution is the key to humankind.

Now, where are those young earth creationist links.

It's the evolution of species mate. The earth itself isn't evolving into a bigger, better planet.