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Is $port* dead?

Is $port* dead?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Jul 26, 2004
78,869
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Has professionalism finally killed it off in the quest for success?

Have performance enhancing drugs diminished your appreciation of sporting achievement?

Has match fixing and gambling pervaded competitions so much that we no longer know what we're watching?

I long for simpler times right now but is this too melodramatic?

Discuss.
 
mld said:
A bit melodramatic for mine.

Perhaps but the recent news regarding the shape of Australian sport coupled with shams like the Tour de Farce really have me disillusioned right now.

One hopes that authorties can get on top of it but whilst dollars are at the forefront of competition I think the cheats will always be a step ahead.
 
The more money a sport has, the better the spectacle
The more money a sport has, the more chance of corruption

Its a fine line to walk. Maybe a massive scandal like this is what's needed to clean it up and instill governance.
 
Tigers of Old said:
I long for simpler times right now but is this too melodramatic?

Way too melodramatic. Sport obviously isn't dead. Far from it...in fact quite the opposite imo. AFL record memberships, rugby and soccer taking hold, wall to wall cricket, record tennis crowds, massive soccer league o/s, Commonwealth games, Olympics, cyclists training everywhere you go. I can't think of one single sport that's died let alone sport in general.
 
Baloo said:
Its a fine line to walk. Maybe a massive scandal like this is what's needed to clean it up and instill governance.

That can only mean more centralised control. More power to vlad, god help us. As though he's not unaccountable enough as it is.
 
Azza said:
That can only mean more centralised control. More power to vlad, god help us. As though he's not unaccountable enough as it is.

It can mean more oversight. The gov can dangle funding only if they have the authorrity to regularly and randomly check, investigate and demand answers.

Ie tanking. Despite Demestos's stance, had the govthe authority to tell the AFL to address the obvious we may not havedescended to the tanking depths that the AFL allowed.
 
Baloo said:
It can mean more oversight. The gov can dangle funding only if they have the authorrity to regularly and randomly check, investigate and demand answers.

Ie tanking. Despite Demestos's stance, had the govthe authority to tell the AFL to address the obvious we may not havedescended to the tanking depths that the AFL allowed.

I wouldn't mind an integrity oversight body independent of the AFL. I wonder how such a body would react to the GWS & GCS concessions (assuming it had the authority)?

Nevertheless, I can see the AFL Commission attempting to use this to increase it's power over the clubs and the sport generally.
 
Baloo said:
The more money a sport has, the better the spectacle
The more money a sport has, the more chance of corruption

Its a fine line to walk. Maybe a massive scandal like this is what's needed to clean it up and instill governance.

Good post. One hopes so Balooga. Sport depends on integrity. If there's no integrity there's no sport.
Hopefully they get on top of it.

rosy23 said:
Way too melodramatic. Sport obviously isn't dead. Far from it...in fact quite the opposite imo. AFL record memberships, rugby and soccer taking hold, wall to wall cricket, record tennis crowds, massive soccer league o/s, Commonwealth games, Olympics, cyclists training everywhere you go. I can't think of one single sport that's died let alone sport in general.

On the main board you started a thread stating your own disillusionment with AFL.

I long for simpler times when the dollar wasn't the be all and end all of sport. The quest for the dollar is where most of the problems stem from.
I agree with an expert today on Fox that said cheating in sport needs to be against the law.
Take it out of the hands of the sporting bodies re punishment and put it in the hands of law enforcement.
It's basically fraud anyway. Suspension from competition is not enough.
 
Tigers of Old said:
On the main board you started a thread stating your own disillusionment with AFL.

I'm quite aware I started that thread. :hihi

Not sure of your point in reminding me. I don't think AFL is dead let alone sport in general. I agree with some of your points and yes I am very disillusioned with AFL personally but it's still very alive and kicking.
 
Do you mean the 'sport' Rolf Harris refers too in his song 'tie me kangaroo down sport'? Pretty sure he died. However, Fred and Clyde are fighting on into their 90's I believe.
 
mld said:
A bit melodramatic for mine.

jb03 said:
A bit melodramatic for mine.

Echo? ;D

No doubt 'dead' is melodramatic but sport's certainly wounded atm.

When we're watching a game or race what do we think to ourselves?

Do we think everyone is clean? Do we think everyone is trying?
I used to, now I'm not so sure.
It's getting harder and harder to believe in certain sports these days in the wake of numerous recent scandals.

At the risk of singling a sport out, let's look at Athletics.
Take a guy like Usain Bolt for example.
Now everyone would love to believe that this guy is just a freak of nature and is naturally beating the times of guys like B Johnson who was juiced to the eyeballs 20 years ago but there's doubt in my mind and that depreciates my appreciation of his achievements. That's not a good thing either for Usain or his sport but history shows us he may not just be a freak of nature at all.

Marion Jones is a more recent example of an athlete we thought was a star but was just cheating better than the rest.
Then obviously we have Armstrong who made a mockery of cycling and has done it irreparable damage.
These are ones who got caught but how many are doing it from other sports in the quest to be the best?
Seems to me you need to be ahead of the game as a cheat to be the best these days.

Then we have match fixing.
Some of the stats released re soccer fixed games over the past few weeks is gobsmacking.
Can you beileve some of these numbers being thrown around?

http://www.theage.com.au/national/matchfix-gangs-set-sights-on-australia-20130206-2dyzb.html

$40m bet on an A League game?

With those sorts of figures it must be extremely tempting for fringe sportsmen to try and influence outcomes.
How can you control it with that sort of money being bandied about? Seems a losing battle.

Sport is really suffering at the moment. For me gradually the magic and appreciation of sporting achievement is being eroded.
i'm a lot more sceptical these days and that reduces interest.
Challenging times for the sporting administrators (if clean themselves) to maintain the integrity of their competitions.
As I said before without integrity, sport is nothing.
 
explains why we've been so *smile* for 30 years. our sport science guys have sucked
 
Interesting question to pose. The government, admin bodies should get fair dinkum and crack down on sports betting exotics, also just keep betting at arms length at the very least. At the moment we have live odds during most sports now, stinks.
 
Baloo said:
The more money a sport has, the better the spectacle


A spectacle is something one makes of oneself. The more money you have, the easier this is to accomplish.


Money is indeed the problem with sport. This is not, however, a new development. Let's look at football in the 1980s: half the clubs were broke and there were serious fears for their existence. This is not an isolated example: in England, the bulk of professional football clubs were broke and there were serious fears for their existence. At the same time, crowds at football were still extremely large in aggregate, even if they were considered small due to their steady diminishing since the golden age of spectator sport between the wars (see television, other leisure options, end of full employment, in England hooliganism etc.). With all these people still paying at the gate, and television revenues, and sponsors, there were still plentiful revenues streaming in. Miniscule by today's standards, but still a steady income. And all these clubs were in penury for what reason? Because they spunked it all up against the wall on ludicrous player wages and transfer fees. (Richmond-Collingwood tit-for-tat, anyone?) Quite simply, the clubs failed to live within their means.

Lo and behold, only a few years later there is money pouring into sport like never before. It's big business. The AFL is no different. So how come so many of the clubs are still in financial difficulties? Yes the pot of money is bigger. The players are taking home more money than ever before. (The merits of the level of player wages is a matter for another day.) In the AFL we now have a salary cap -- theoretically, each club's income should adequately cover their total player payments and general operations. However, they don't, because we have a new arms race, this time in football department spending. The poor clubs either spend beyond their means, or fall behind, or spend beyond their means yet still fall behind. The clubs whose income greatly covers their basic expenditure have more surplus to throw into the arms race, and pull further ahead.

In English football, there is no salary cap, and Financial Fair Play is still considered a matter to be dealt with at some far-off distant juncture (what do you mean, a few years from now?) For some time now we have had the situation where only a handful of really big clubs, or those rocket-propelled by oil money, are realistic chances of winning the title. Even a rich, proud club like Arsenal now have as their ambition to finish fourth (FOURTH!) so they can qualify for the "Champions League", which they will never be good enough to win. Next season, same ambition. And the season after that. The consequences of failure are devastating financially -- they couldn't afford to stay on the treadmill, which is now their only ambition. Lower down, it's even worse -- clubs spend all their money simply to stay where they are. It's the Red Queen Effect. If you get it wrong, and get relegated, disaster: hello Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds, Southampton, Portsmouth, Bradford City....

The last is an interesting case study. Indebted to David Conn's books for the details -- a fine journalist from the Guardian. In 1983 Bradford City were technically insolvent. They'd spent beyond their means -- no surprise there. They cobbled together money from wherever they could get it, including a lot of supporter donations. Built a decent team and won promotion to the Second Division in 1985. On the day they clinched promotion, an old wooden stand caught fire, and became a raging inferno. 56 people died. In the investigation that followed, it was found that huge quantities of flammable rubbish had been allowed to accumulate below the stand. They found a copy of the local paper dated 4 November 1968. The safety certificate was out-of-date, building regulations flouted, numerous safety issues had been brought to the club's attention... but they'd spent all the money on player wages and transfers.

Bradford bumbled around the Second Division for the next decade, had a near miss on promotion in the early 90s, finally made it in 1999. They had a modest squad and made only one big signing that summer. They stayed up by the skin of their teeth on the last day. In the summer of 2000, they had what has been described as "six weeks of madness". In came average or over the hill players (Carbone, Petrescu, Hopkin) on big wages for big transfers. By October they were already as good as down. They haemorraged money and by 2002 were in administration. They came out, and went straight back into administration in 2004. On both occassions, the list of creditors included substantial sums to the St John Ambulance, who had treated so many of the injured and dying on the worst day in the city's history. If you want an example of sport's priorities, that is it.

Now they've made a League Cup Final. They're in the fourth tier and, if you believe some sources, assembled the entire team for a total of £7,500. What are they going to do with the prize money -- why, spend it on an end of season jolly to Las Vegas... and I will bet you any money they have payments outstanding to the St John Ambulance.

Sport is a basically a big sieve. Put money in, it all comes out the bottom. However much money you put in, the process and result are the same. I do not subscribe to the theory that better-paid players and bigger and better and whizz-bang off-field support mean a better quality of sport. As Richmond supporters we should all know -- we have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, in some cases season after season, to blokes we reckon can't play. I do not subscribe to the theory that faster and fitter players mean better sport. Good sport, basically, requires two things.

1) Potential to win. No matter how remote on paper, it is still Us against Them. It's not about winning per se, but neither is it about the Corinthian spirit and all that claptrap. However, there is a lot to be said for doing things with skill, and style, and panache if you possibly can.
2) Believing that it matters. You have to suspend disbelief that you are watching grown men run around after a ball, and have an emotional attachment or involvement in the outcome. Even if you just want to see Carlton lose or QPR get relegated.

If you don't have those, you're *smile*. Imagine supporting, say, Stoke City. Spending all your income on staying exactly where you are and hoping like hell you don't go down. That doesn't sound much fun. This is the equivalent of working your entire life at a dead-end job that barely keeps you housed, clothed and fed, and still knowing that there is the worse possibility of the firm going out of business and you being cast out on the street with nothing. Does that sound like fun? Because sport is supposed to be fun. And it requires more than just money.

[/end stream of consciousness]

:wavey
 
Great post Ready.

No doubt money is the number one threat to sport. It's not a new development as you say but the more money that plunges into it the bigger the problems seem to amplify themselves.

Ready said:
In English football, there is no salary cap, and Financial Fair Play is still considered a matter to be dealt with at some far-off distant juncture (what do you mean, a few years from now?) For some time now we have had the situation where only a handful of really big clubs, or those rocket-propelled by oil money, are realistic chances of winning the title. Even a rich, proud club like Arsenal now have as their ambition to finish fourth (FOURTH!) so they can qualify for the "Champions League", which they will never be good enough to win. Next season, same ambition. And the season after that.

Your point about having to spend a lot of coin simply to remain competitive is a good one.

Fighting Tiger Fund anyone?

The need for TFTF is a bug bear of mine. Because I love my club and got caught up in the emotion of it all, I contributed generously when it was launched. However in spite of some obvious improvements like Punt Road Oval's redevelopment, I'm starting to question the need for this fund, now that the club has extended it annually.

My angst stems from the problem as you say, that football department spending has spiralled out of control.
Us supporters are the ones propping up this extended AFL industry and all it's extra coaching, sports science and associated crapola.
When Craig Cameron puts up charts saying football department spend correlates directly with on field success, you know you have a problem.
How long is a piece of string Craig?
If we as a club spend more on our football dept. then it perpetuates and other clubs will need to spend more too in their quest to be successful.
As we have seen several other clubs have since launched their own 'fund raisers'. :spin
It's ridiculous that so much money is now required to win a flag. I have argued for some time now that off field spending needs a salary cap too.
However our professional code seems to be heading down the same inevitable path as others around the world.

Ultimately though for all this extra coin that it now takes to run a football organisation, how much do you enjoy footy more than you did 20 or 30 years ago before all this 'professionalism' existed?
The answer for me is not much. I enjoy it less now if anything.

As many others have said on these boards recently I can enjoy a local amateur game of footy just as much as a game in
the AFL, even more so as I start to lose faith in professional sport with all it's associated problems.
 
Tigers of Old said:
Fighting Tiger Fund anyone?

The need for TFTF is a bug bear of mine. Because I love my club and got caught up in the emotion of it all, I contributed generously when it was launched. However in spite of some obvious improvements like Punt Road Oval's redevelopment, I'm starting to question the need for this fund, now that the club has extended it annually.

I certainly understand that and it's partly why we're not fundraising on PRE for it this year. The fact is many do want to contribute though. Despite the need for supporter funds our club is nowhere near dead. We're actually well ahead of last year's membership figures.