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NBN

Baloo said:
The cost of not getting Australia onto a decent internet speed would far outweigh the cost rolling it out could come too. Now, if you start talking in hypothetical extremes again and rattle off 1 Trillion Dollars as something I am condoning then there is no real pint in discussing it.
Was it a promise, or a core promise ? Howard is the one that introduced the term. Promises are whats said in an elecction year to win votes, but not really something the government will do. Core promises are something they do intend to do.
The funds will never dry up because the government, no matter which party is in power, will add more funds. This is an infrastructure program benefitting all australians.
Following on from the old dunny analogy, FTTN would be like running sewrage pipes down the middle of the street and only those that want to use it can pay for the piping to the home. Everyone else can still call in the septic cleaners to pump and desposit it down the street.

I reckon 10 years ago you would have thought the "general populace" wouldn't need that fancy 128Kb ADSL technology everyone was talking about. 56k dial would have be fine for most expect those pesky music downloaders.

So really your answer would be " at any cost". Forget the hypothetical extremes. It wouldn't matter.
Promise or a core promise. It wouldn't matter, would it?
I talked about funds "allocated"
Silly analogy. But I'll follow your lead. No, sewerage pipes to every house, gold plated pipes for those that want them, pay for them.
Now you're telling me what I thought 10 years ago. Geez you're the clever one Baloo.

Brodders17 said:
A Gillard 'promise' is worth a lot more than anything that comes out of Abbott's mouth.

on the NBN the choice appears to be spend a lot now on a system that will give great results and can be easily and cheaply upgraded in the future, or to spend less on a system that will bring limited benefits and will require constant expensive upgrading in the future. i know which i prefer.

Yeah so we witnessed.
You're missing the point once again. I'm not knocking the technology. But the eventual cost and whether EVERY household will use it. Those that want ultra high speeds can pay for the cost from the node. Simple really, but I know it's hard to get through to some.
 
willo said:
So really your answer would be " at any cost". Forget the hypothetical extremes. It wouldn't matter.
It's worth funding it until you reach the point where the cost would outweight the benefits.

Promise or a core promise. It wouldn't matter, would it?
According to Howard it would matter.

I talked about funds "allocated"
So keep allocating

Silly analogy. But I'll follow your lead. No, sewerage pipes to every house, gold plated pipes for those that want them, pay for them.
See, you see FTTH as a luxury item. I see it as an enabler. If you're not able to see what reliable high speed internet can do for a community then there's really no point in going on.

Now you're telling me what I thought 10 years ago. Geez you're the clever one Baloo.
It's not that hard mate. What you're saying now is the same as what people have been saying ever since the modem was invented.
 
willo said:
You're missing the point once again. I'm not knocking the technology. But the eventual cost and whether EVERY household will use it. Those that want ultra high speeds can pay for the cost from the node. Simple really, but I know it's hard to get through to some.

if fibre does not go to every home and take-up is low as a result there will be no incentive for business to develop applications that need high take up.
if fibre does not go to every home poor granny smith, who may not be able to afford the extra $1000s will not have access to all the living supports that can come with NBN- eg constant home monitoring.
if fibre does not go to every home/business, businesses renting property may not have access.
if fibre does not go to every home renters may not have access.

again the options are do nothing, go fibre to the home- which will cost more but will bring more benefits to more people and cost less to maintain/upgrade- or go fibre to the node which will cost less, but still a considerable amount, bring limited benefits to the general population, be costly to maintain or upgrade and will still require a large investment from anyone who actually wants improved performance.

seems a pretty simple choice to me.
 
Brodders17 said:
if fibre does not go to every home and take-up is low as a result there will be no incentive for business to develop applications that need high take up.
if fibre does not go to every home poor granny smith, who may not be able to afford the extra $1000s will not have access to all the living supports that can come with NBN- eg constant home monitoring.
if fibre does not go to every home/business, businesses renting property may not have access.
if fibre does not go to every home renters may not have access.

again the options are do nothing, go fibre to the home- which will cost more but will bring more benefits to more people and cost less to maintain/upgrade- or go fibre to the node which will cost less, but still a considerable amount, bring limited benefits to the general population, be costly to maintain or upgrade and will still require a large investment from anyone who actually wants improved performance.

seems a pretty simple choice to me.

And when can we expect to get the NBN and at what cost? The business plan has gone out the window. The ALP have been hopeless in overseeing this project.
 
MB78 said:
And when can we expect to get the NBN and at what cost? The business plan has gone out the window. The ALP have been hopeless in overseeing this project.

Same as I've asked mate.
The answer is "dunno" and "dunno it doesn't matter"
It doesn't matter if you'll ever use it or even have a hard wired computer, you're going to get it, one day, maybe.
 
An interesting take on the NBN from someone I respect in the industry, Simon Hackett, founder of Internode.

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/
 
KnightersRevenge said:
Thanks PT. That was very interesting though a lot of it went over my head. I tweeted it to Rudd.

Expect a new consultative policy announcement Sunday 4PM in time for the 6PM news.
"Rudd ditches NBN".
Que video of serious looking Rudd announcing another backflip policy adjustment.
News readers instructed not to "read the fine print"
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
An interesting take on the NBN from someone I respect in the industry, Simon Hackett, founder of Internode.

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/

Nearly what I've been saying. :D

Knows his stuff, pity Conroy and the nbn team didn't talk to some of the experts that knew the technology available and the costing/savings. It would save $billions and years of delay.
 
I really like the idea of minimising the tech required at each household. Just bring the fibre to the home and you're done. Leave the in-house tech to the vendors and let competition do its work.

The problem with this is that it would require each household to purchase that tech, especially if they want a POTS (telephone) service after the install. I am sure that won't fly with the tech illiterate and semi-literate that make up the majority of the population. After all the status quo with telephones are that they 'just work'.

I just hate the idea that we are locked into a single (expensive) vendor for the inhouse termination end. Perhaps the retailers could get involved at that point to ensure that the hookup is seamless in the end and avoid the loss of service as well as the vendor lock-in with the current system.
 
When they rolled it out here, the termination end was free if you signed up when they were working on your house. If you didn't and later wanted it installed, you would need to pay a couple of hundred or more.

Seemed like a fair arrangement
 
Below is a really good article on the NBN from one of my preferred news options, The Conversation. While some people say "it is just the internet" I think it is a technology that has the potential, and opportunity, to greatly improve society, and even more so for business, so should be right in the mix for who people vote for. So far the Libs are tracking waaay behind Labor on this policy *IMO*.


http://theconversation.com/factcheck-will-regional-internet-users-pay-more-under-the-coalitions-nbn-plan-16971

FactCheck: will regional internet users pay more under the Coalition’s NBN plan?

“If people want to access high-speed fibre, they will have to pay $5000 for the privilege… We believe that people in regions should pay the same price as people in Brisbane CBD or Sydney CBD. Under the Coalition plan, there will be different prices, one for the CBD and a higher price in regional Australia.” – Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy, Anthony Albanese, press conference, 9 August.
Both major parties are trying to convince voters that their plan is better than their competitor’s. So, is it true that the Coalition’s broadband plan will cost more for regional households and businesses?

Competing NBN policies and costs

Albanese’s statement seems to conflate the cost of provision with the cost of access. The National Broadband Network’s (NBN) wholesale price is based on provision, access and usage:

Provision is the cost of installing a connection to the user premises.
Access is the monthly fee for being able to use the NBN, covering operations and recovering capital expenditure.
Usage refers to the charge per data volume or digitally delivered service. (Usage charges would be set by internet providers – not NBN Co or the government.)
The government’s NBN rollout includes both the deployment of technology – fibre, fixed wireless and satellite – and the provision of the connection to the premises itself. All of this is provided to the end user at no up-front cost in all but the most exceptional cases.

The Coalition’s policy brings the optical fibre connection to one of about 60,000 neighbourhood “nodes”, or kerbside cabinets, where that fibre connection is then adjusted and linked to the existing copper wire to the home. This technology is known as Fibre to the Node (FTTN) and is intended for 71% of premises.

The policy also provides for 22% of premises being connected by fibre all the way to the home for many new housing estates and where the copper has degraded to the point that fibre is more cost-effective.

Those who won’t be connected by fibre to their home can pay for their own connection or possibly co-fund their connection with local councils or private entrepreneurs (this would then split the cost of connection, making it cheaper for individual households).

If all this technical explanation is confusing, here’s a way to think about how both policies work. Suppose our major roads were sealed, minor roads were gravel, and access roads to homes were dirt. The ALP’s policy is like having all roads sealed, with 93% of access roads being sealed and the remaining 7% being upgraded to gravel. The Coalition’s policy is like having all minor roads sealed, but access roads will only be sealed if this is cheaper than gravel. If you want a sealed road to your home, you are welcome to pay for it yourself.

Albanese claims a self-funded connection under the Coalition’s plan will cost A$5000. It is unclear whether he means this is a typical figure, or a worst case. The comparable figure in the UK is between £700 to £1500 although other sources claim up to £3500. Shadow communications minister Malcolm Turnbull has quoted around A$3000 based on the UK figure for a 500 metre connection from the local node.

But using these UK figures can only give us a ballpark estimate of what it would cost in Australia. The UK and Australian circumstances are different, with different levels of urbanisation and costs of labour.

Whatever the actual figure will be, there seems to be broad agreement that it is thousands of dollars, and this will be a significant barrier to the take-up of optical fibre.

Will regional Australians pay more?

The government’s policy has a set uniform wholesale price – that is the price of access to the NBN that NBN Co sells on to internet service providers. For regional users, it’s more likely that they will be getting a satellite connection rather than fibre to the home. This technology is more expensive to provide but the cost of access would be the same. Effectively, this means the cost of accessing fibre in the city is cross-subsidising the more expensive satellite technology used in the country.

But the Coalition policy is subtly different. It has a cap on its wholesale price, meaning that the price could be lower. If there was more infrastructure competition, particularly if a competitor found a cheaper alternative technology, this could drive lower costs and lower wholesale pricing. To compete effectively NBN Co would then need to lower their own wholesale pricing.

History suggests price competition might occur in affluent parts of Sydney and Melbourne, and to a lesser extent in Brisbane, Perth and possibly Adelaide. But competition is unlikely to appear on a significant scale elsewhere in the country, including regional areas.

Modelling of this competition effect provided by the minister’s office suggests a wholesale price difference under the Coalition’s plan of just 7% by 2019 for a 12 megabits per second service. This is a difference of around $1.40 per month or $17 per year. A stronger example, including at a higher data rate, may have demonstrated a higher price.

But with the government’s current modelling, it hardly compares to the broader cost differences associated with the current city-country divide of private and government delivery of services. It’s important to note that reliable internet access would mean other costs of living in regional areas, particularly transport and education, could be reduced.

Verdict

Albanese’s claim that it will cost $5000 for a fibre connection to your home under the Coalition’s plan is no more reliable than the Coalition’s estimate of $3000, as there are so many potential cost variables – but clearly the cost will be in the thousands of dollars.

On the second claim about differences in regional and city prices, modelling provided by the minister’s office suggests a wholesale price differentiation of around 7% by 2019.

Review

The article provides a fair analysis. Regional consumers may pay more, but the user-pays principle under the Coalition’s policy also applies to residents in suburbs of the metropolitan cities. The extra user-pays charge for fibre access rather than copper access will dwarf the likely regional difference in retail usage charges over the first several years of usage, for those who want it. So, along with those living in regional areas, those living in more established suburban homes and single-tenant business premises will also be disadvantaged by the Coalition’s policy.

It’s worth noting as well that the final connection price would be affected by how many households or businesses in a given street decide to petition together for a fibre cable to be connected to their houses. Thus the average price for fibre access will likely be much less in high-income suburbs than in low-income suburbs.

On the article’s last point, few people will be using such a low speed as 12 Mbps by 2019. Even rural residents connected to the NBN by radio access will start receiving 25 Mbps by beginning of 2014. On current predictions, by 2019 the normal entry level for fibre to the home services is expected to be 100 Mbps. – Peter Gerrand.

The Conversation is fact checking political statements in the lead-up to this year’s federal election. Statements are checked by an academic with expertise in the area. A second academic expert reviews an anonymous copy of the article.

Request a check at [email protected]. Please include the statement you would like us to check, the date it was made, and a link if possible.
 
I don't doubt the Labor plan is better (ignoring taxpayer cost) then the Lib's plan.
But I do have a query.
Technology has developed at an amazing pace in the past 20 years and is showing no sign of slowing down,
I have this niggling doubt that by the time the NBN is finished, Wireless speeds will have developed to comparable speed levels, or at least to speeds that most people would find acceptable.
Who can say with confidence that 4G is as good as it will get?
Like I said, I just have this feeling that technology advancements may (stress may) overtake the NBN.
 
poppa x said:
I don't doubt the Labor plan is better (ignoring taxpayer cost) then the Lib's plan.
But I do have a query.
Technology has developed at an amazing pace in the past 20 years and is showing no sign of slowing down,
I have this niggling doubt that by the time the NBN is finished, Wireless speeds will have developed to comparable speed levels, or at least to speeds that most people would find acceptable.
Who can say with confidence that 4G is as good as it will get?
Like I said, I just have this feeling that technology advancements may (stress may) overtake the NBN.

Wireless base stations are still connected to cable (and have to be). And even if (or when) wireless speeds can match cable speed, there is still a digital bandwidth problem (for radio signal). I guess it's possible that a wireless base station at the end of your street could obviate the need for cable to the door at some point though.
 
poppa x said:
But I do have a query.
Technology has developed at an amazing pace in the past 20 years and is showing no sign of slowing down,
I have this niggling doubt that by the time the NBN is finished, Wireless speeds will have developed to comparable speed levels, or at least to speeds that most people would find acceptable.
Who can say with confidence that 4G is as good as it will get?
Like I said, I just have this feeling that technology advancements may (stress may) overtake the NBN.

4G isn't as good as it gets. Wireless will get better. But it will never be as good as a fibre connection. As wireless speeds increase, fibre speeds will increase too. There are plenty of applications and content out there, or even in planning, that are waiting for the internet speeds to increase. Wireless being a shared bandwidth and susceptible to interference will always be inferior to a wired connection.

A bit like a Tigers win, there is no such thing as too much.
 
poppa x said:
I don't doubt the Labor plan is better (ignoring taxpayer cost) then the Lib's plan.
But I do have a query.
Technology has developed at an amazing pace in the past 20 years and is showing no sign of slowing down,
I have this niggling doubt that by the time the NBN is finished, Wireless speeds will have developed to comparable speed levels, or at least to speeds that most people would find acceptable.
Who can say with confidence that 4G is as good as it will get?
Like I said, I just have this feeling that technology advancements may (stress may) overtake the NBN.

That's the issue here poppa, FTTN is not a developed technology. Its a Band-Aid between the poor copper network infrastructure and fibre nodes. As for wireless, there are currently wireless providers that can get you access of 100mbps down and 20mbps up so it is definitely an alternative but it has issues due to its nature. Strong winds, rain, trees etc all play havoc with wireless packets. Then there is the contention issues!

By doing the NBN right with FTTH, the option of gigabit internet is only a few clicks away... then there is the 10Gbps GPON.
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-18/turnbull-warns-of-challenges-to-get-nbn-on-track/5099500

Malcolm Turnbull warns of 'daunting challenges' to get NBN rollout back on track
Analysis by business editor Peter Ryan
Updated 1 hour 32 minutes ago

Malcolm Turnbull holds a press conference.
PHOTO: Malcolm Turnbull demands no more "spin" regarding the NBN. (AAP: Dan Himbrechts, file photo)
RELATED STORY: Internet entrepreneur Simon Hackett joins NBN Co boardRELATED STORY: More homes to be connected to NBN
MAP: Australia
Federal Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has warned it will be a "daunting challenge" to get the National Broadband Network back on track.

NBN Co is in the middle of a 60-day review ordered shortly after the Coalition won government in September.

The review's outcome is becoming a headache not just for Mr Turnbull but the entire telecommunications industry, which is looking for certainty after the instability of the Labor years.

When the review ends on December 31, industry stakeholders will want a clear answer on whether the NBN will be delivered in a fashion that works, not just for the Coalition, but for them.

While Labor's fibre-to-the-home rollout plan was costed at $44 billion, the Coalition's fibre-to-the-street-corner plan using Telstra's copper wire to the premises is more modest at around $29 billion.

But anything is possible given Mr Turnbull's comments earlier this year that all options will be assessed during the review.

Speaking at a conference in Sydney to update the industry on whether the NBN would be delivered on time and on budget, Mr Turnbull said Labor had no business undertaking such a massive financial project with underwriting from the private sector.

What do you think of Mr Turnbull's comments? Have your say
Political issues aside, Mr Turnbull is now warning of "bumps in the road" in the rollout of "a colossal undertaking" which is now "a daunting challenge".

It is easy to get the impression that Mr Turnbull is carefully managing expectations about how and when the NBN will eventually be rolled out.

"Make no mistake, to get this project back on track and completed in a reasonable time frame at a reasonable cost is a daunting challenge," he said.


AUDIO: Business editor Peter Ryan on the Turnbull speech (The World Today)
Participants at "The NBN Rebooted" conference hosted by the Communications Alliance would have been disappointed at the no show of NBN Co's new executive chairman Ziggy Switkowski, who was billed earlier as keynote speaker.

A spokesman for Mr Turnbull said Dr Switkowski had never accepted the invitation to speak and that his listing on the conference agenda was mischievous.

It is understood the Dr Switkowski - in the past accessible to journalists including this reporter - has agreed to keep a low profile in line with the communications strategy of the Coalition.

And on the theme of public commentary in relation to the NBN, which was almost a daily occurrence during the Rudd-Gillard governments - Mr Turnbull said he had ordered NBN Co and anyone related to the project to "tell it as it is".

"There is no longer any room at the NBN Co for spin or for telling the minister what people imagine he wants to hear," Mr Turnbull said.

"In short, I expect the team, management, the board at the NBN Co to regard every forecast and every decision as something they would be prepared to defend in the prospectus for a public listed company."

By ordering the elimination of "spin" in NBN communications, Mr Turnbull is raising the bar for all government projects.

Follow Peter Ryan on Twitter @peter_f_ryan and on his blog.



Great to see Turnbull is treating us tax payers with respect. Unlike Stephen Conroy who at best was incompetent.
 
MB78 said:
Great to see Turnbull is treating us tax payers with respect. Unlike Stephen Conroy who at best was incompetent.

Conroy was a tool of the highest order. I hope the review doesn't factor-in Murdoch's objection to fibre to the home in any decision.

Interesting to see the media blackout acknowledged as a Government political strategy.
 
Sex. Lies and thank gawd it is not on video tape...


Labor leaks NBN Co analysis of Coalition NBN


A draft analysis of the Coalition's national broadband network plan produced for the incoming Abbott government by NBN Co, the company then charged with building Labor's project, has been released by the Labor Party.

The briefing document – which Fairfax Media has been reporting on for a fortnight but which has not been released publicly until now – raises a number of issues with the NBN model the Coalition took to the election.

The briefing was produced by NBN Co for the Department of Communications during the caretaker period immediately before the federal election in September.

Among other things, the document said the Coalition's NBN model would prove inadequate for many businesses, was poorly planned and was unlikely to be completed on time. It was not independently audited.

Labor's communications spokesman Jason Clare released the document on Thursday after Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull tabled the NBN strategic review, which was independently audited.

The review says Mr Turnbull's aim to deliver download speeds of 25 megabits a second to all Australians by 2016 is unachievable. It also shows the Coalition NBN will cost $41 billion to build, not $29.5 billion as initially estimated.

Mr Claire said it was the "real strategic review" of the Coalition's plan. "This document is an unadulterated, uncensored and unamended analysis of the Coalition's broadband plan by NBN Co before Malcolm Turnbull brought his mates in to give him the answers he wants," Mr Clare said.

"It is now obvious why Malcolm Turnbull won't release his incoming minister's brief. It is scathing about the Coalition's second-rate NBN plan."

The brief to the incoming government, or "blue book", is given to ministers when they enter government. Mr Turnbull's brief included information from the NBN Co analysis.

Mr Turnbull's brief has been the subject of numerous freedom of information requests, which were ultimately rejected by Mr Turnbull's department and are now subject to appeals.

After the rejection, Mr Turnbull told journalists he would not order the release of any briefing documents because he wanted people to be able to provide "frank and fearless" advice to him. "If every bit of written advice public servants gave ministers was to be published, journalists would [have a] field day," he said.

"[But] it wouldn't be a field day for very long because all of the advice would then be given orally. There needs to be a degree of candour."

twitter This reporter is on Facebook: /bengrubb

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The briefing was produced by NBN Co for the Department of Communications during the caretaker period immediately before the federal election in September

So this report was produced by the same people who initially costed the NBN at 4.7 Billion, got it wrong and had to make 3 "adjustments" to its costings ending up with a so called "final" cost of nearly 40 billion, then fell behind by more than 6 months with the implementation. I think I'll ignore it. Only a fool would believe a report cobbled together by a Board with a proven track record of incompetence. I was told that no-one on the old Board had any experience with telecommunications. If true, this points the way to why the old NBN plan was over budget and behind schedule.
The Labor NBN may be a good idea, but when no-one can properly cost it because they ran out of drink coasters then it's time to ask "what's going on here"?