Performance-based contracts | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Performance-based contracts

Dean3

Older than I've ever been
Dec 17, 2002
2,954
0
Melbourne
Does anyone have any insights to share about performance-based contracts?

I’m all for them, for players, coaches, administrators etc etc, but the way I see it, they must be very carefiully structured to produce the right results. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but Danny Frawley’s contract, with it’s incentives based around finals, membership levels, attendances, number of wins etc may be counter-productive. If the coach is so focussed on results, and short term results to boot, then is it any wonder that short term decisions are made?
Perhaps the contracts should place greater emphasis on the processes and policies that produce winning teams, rather than on the results themselves. For instance, if a club like Carlton hires a coach like Pagan and decides on a rebuilding phase, then it would seem ridiculous to commit Pagan to a contract like Danny’s. Ditto Peter Rohde.
Similarly with a player, is it not possible to write a performance-based contract that takes its rewards from KPI’s such as ‘team assists’, ‘one-percenters’, ‘effective possessions’ — things that focus on an individual player’s strengths and weaknesses in the process of playing games, rather than on the obvious indicators such as possessions, goals, games played, finals played etc etc. Such KPI’s could also be tied into the overall game plan. Of course, this may already happen, I don’t know, but from what you gather along the way, the incentives are based on factors that may not be all that productive in the long term.
Maybe this is an area where the ‘Ruthless Richmond’ mentality has really let us down, and has reflected in the way we contract everyone, including coaching and playing personnel right through to how we approach recruiting, selection, even how we handle the media, members and supporters.

Is this part of the malaise that affects our club?
 

MC24

Tiger Superstar
Jan 14, 2003
1,147
0
Dean3 said:
Is this part of the malaise that affects our club?

No doubt Dean. The performance based contract is a good idea, but unless directed in a certain way can have disastrous results, because it can be seen to motivate people to become selfish and so an individual mentality sets in.

I guess the way you've presented the "team" aspects would be the way to go, if Clubs want to have this type of contract.

I think we've been very naïve the way some things have been handled in the past, which has helped to create this individualism within the Club.

Hearing Greg Miller on Club Corner last night, he is working to change all that.
 
J

jake_the_lad

Guest
I am interested to know how these contracts work for players. How do you get the best out of the salary cap when you don't know exactly how much you are going to have to pay each year?

In the old system you knew exactly how much money was going where so you could make 100% utilisation of the salary cap. But if we were to have a good year with PBCs, would we be in danger of going over the top?

All we really know if that if a lot of people at the club are on such contracts then they should be warming up the vocal chords if they want supper.
 

Koalalill

Just looking for someone else to curse!
Dec 17, 2002
1,118
0
MC24 said:
I think we've been very naïve the way some things have been handled in the past, which has helped to create this individualism within the Club.

Hearing Greg Miller on Club Corner last night, he is working to change all that.

I didn't hear Greg on Sport927 last night but I reckon you are spot on MC24 regarding the individualism at the Club. Past decsions especially regarding player contracts have hurt us deeply. The focus of "we must re-sign player X not matter what" seems to me at least to have been the only focus. Not whether short or long term we could afford or whether we could manage it. As a result the list, in particular the second tier group has suffered to the point where our depth is practically non-existent. And I think the thought process throughout the Club has been well that doesn't matter because "we have player X". Where finally now the Club realises that it does matter
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,348
31
Dean3 said:
It probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but Danny Frawley’s contract, with it’s incentives based around finals, membership levels, attendances, number of wins etc may be counter-productive. If the coach is so focussed on results, and short term results to boot, then is it any wonder that short term decisions are made?

To me it's really questioning Spud's integrity to think he may have possibly coached for personal gain rather than have the best interests of the RFC at heart.

If that was even slightly the case I wonder why we'd keep him on.

Surely the right man for the job would put the future of the club ahead of his own interests.

I'd love to hear Spud's opinion on this one.
 

Dean3

Older than I've ever been
Dec 17, 2002
2,954
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Melbourne
Well, I'm only guessing, but I think that the kind of performance indicators in Spud's contract were intended to provide incentives that were good for both him AND the club. I'm just wondering whether they're good for anyone in his position.
 

MC24

Tiger Superstar
Jan 14, 2003
1,147
0
Koalalill said:
Past decsions especially regarding player contracts have hurt us deeply. The focus of "we must re-sign player X not matter what" seems to me at least to have been the only focus.

This is what Greg was saying has changed now. Clubs need to realise that if a player doesn't want to be at a Club then his current Club shouldn't try to keep him by offering a huge contract to retain his services.

In the long run, it only comes back to hurt you, because the player has stayed for all the wrong reasons. If he wants to go, let him go. As painful as it may be at the time.

Greg wants contracts to be about players getting what they deserve and not based on other, outside forces or influences. This can only be a good thing.

In the past, young players have received huge contracts, either based on one good season, or to help retain them at a Club.

Not any more, it seems.
 

Ridley

Tiger Legend
Jul 21, 2003
17,829
15,593
quote author=MC24 link=board=2;threadid=2395;start=0#msg23694 date=1062472009][/color]



Hearing Greg Miller on Club Corner last night, he is working to change all that.

All Greg Miller did on the Spin Doctor show last night was spin the usual crap that the club has been dishing us for the last 20 years.

Be patient blah blah blah.

We've got the right structure in place to support Danny and Greg Beck *smile* *smile*.

What a wank! They're all deluded at that club. Absolutely no sense of reality.

Don't be surprised if the so called major changes and aggressive trading don't occur. Miller alluded to it last night when he claimed that he wasn't sure what other clubs thought of our players.

Translation: Our players are absolutely crap and no one wants them so we'll be stuck with them again next year.

But thing that really pissed me off was when that imbecile Greenberg defended Nicholls and Hilton, saying how well they played on Sunday and that they're worth perservering with.

What a crock of *smile*. They are both unequivocal hacks who will pull a half decent game out of their arses once in a blue moon. But of course that's good enough for RFC because we love and thrive on mediocrity!

Fair dinkum, how the hell is club ever going to improve when we've got losers like that with loser attitudes running the joint.

Shithouse! Forever.
 

Harry

Tiger Legend
Mar 2, 2003
24,588
12,184
Agree Ridley - each time I hear Miller, I more and more get the impression that he is as deluded as the rest of them...............hope he proves me wrong but my instincts on these things are usually right.
 

Dean3

Older than I've ever been
Dec 17, 2002
2,954
0
Melbourne
Gosh Harry, I wish I had your all-seeing, all-knowing, 20-20 future vision and wisdom! It must be marvellous! :)
 

RFC not KFC

Tiger Superstar
May 2, 2003
1,489
0
Maybe we should push for performance based membership packages.

$20.00 to join
$7.50 to attend home games
$2.00 per win
$5.00 for making finals
$25.00 for winning the flag
50% refund for finishing bottom 4.

Then the club would have no choice but to stop talking the talk and actually do something.
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,347
19,921
Every time i hear of performance based contracts I think of the C.E.O's of big companies who get paid 10's of millions dollars in performance based contracts. Quite often they have brought the company to it's knees like H.I.H etc or OneTel. For that reason I hate them.

I guess if a performance based contract is structured properly they could be ok.
Although I don't know how one could be set up that would prevent the recipient thinking of themelves, even if it is only mariginal, I think that it could be detrimental to team. (club)

Apart from thinking that our list of players was better than they actually were, I reckon that the way Spud's performance based contract was structured, certainly gave him cause to recruit tried (tired) players rather than youth.

I am keen know whether Greg Miller's handshake deal has performance based elements to it. I would hate to see us continue down the same track.

If the club are going to recruit players from other clubs, I hope that they are top notch, quality players and not one's that are carrying baggage.
 

TigerFurious

Smooth
Dec 17, 2002
3,628
4,867
Personally I'm not all that much in favour of performance based contracts for anyone at the club. I think that Frawley's current contract has had a negative impact on the direction that he has taken the team in.

What bugs me most about contractual arrangements at Richmond is the length of some of the deals especially for players. We saw *smile* signed to a five year deal and Biddiscombe signed up for 3 years and countless other examples of average players being put on long term deals. So much can change in a single season let alone 5 yet the club continually commit to the ridiculous deals, digging us further into an already big hole.

IMHO no contract should be longer than 3 years and only the best performed and most consistant players would warrant this. The majority of players would be on 1-2 year deals and I think this might raise the intensity level of a few players who get cushy deals and coast along for a few years. Same goes for coaches and officials.
 

Future Tiger Champ

Tiger Cub
Jul 17, 2003
129
0
TigerFurious said:
We saw *smile* signed to a five year deal and Biddiscombe signed up for 3 years and countless other examples of average players being put on long term deals.

Is Gaspar an average player?
 

mightytiges

The greatest Tiger of them all - Jack Dyer R.I.P.
Dec 16, 2002
1,195
0
TigerFurious said:
IMHO no contract should be longer than 3 years and only the best performed and most consistant players would warrant this. The majority of players would be on 1-2 year deals and I think this might raise the intensity level of a few players who get cushy deals and coast along for a few years. Same goes for coaches and officials.

Well said TF. Only the likes of Cogs, Johnson, etc should be offered 3 year deals at the very most.
 

Koalalill

Just looking for someone else to curse!
Dec 17, 2002
1,118
0
TigerFurious said:
IMHO no contract should be longer than 3 years and only the best performed and most consistant players would warrant this. The majority of players would be on 1-2 year deals and I think this might raise the intensity level of a few players who get cushy deals and coast along for a few years. Same goes for coaches and officials.

Couldn't agree with you more TF.

Two year deals should be the norm not the exception.

Five year deals would appear to be a thing of the past thankgodness. If Lloyd can't get one - then no-one should.

3 years for your top players. For us Cogs, Johnson, Ottens. Not for all the others coming out of contract and we intend to keep - 2 year deals only.
 

Dean3

Older than I've ever been
Dec 17, 2002
2,954
0
Melbourne
Generally agree with that, but keep in mind that there is more to contracting a player than just his own contract — for instance, it would be bad management for 3 of your 4 best talls to all come out of contract in the same year, so it may sometimes be more prudent to offer someone a 3 year deal when they may really only deserve 2. I would imagine that handling the contractual side of things would be like trying to get honey back in the jar — very difficult, and a lot of sticky situations.
All I hope for is that we start using some balance and common sense when making any decision, rather than making huge decisions during crises or when the glare of supporters and/or the media is upon us. As the past has shown, nobody makes good decisions under those circumstances.
 

nick the tiger

I'm a llama!
Aug 21, 2003
207
0
Agree with maximum 3 year contracts and then only for the best few.
What's the point of having the coach on a performance based contract if when he is not performing you remove the clause that gives you the opportunity to get rid of him? Would he have been so generous if he had been achieving his KPIs? Would he have said "listen, nay, yeh well lets remove that clause out of my contract cause it's costing the club too much money"? I don't think so.
 

Roar34

I wuv the Tiggers
Aug 10, 2003
4,545
0
Castlemaine
Here's a humourous (or is it?) look at Pontiac's PBC from another website (sorry rosy...I still luvs ya but):

Frawley boost to bottom line

Richmond coffers are to receive an end of season windfall after the loss to Hawthorn in the last round. The Geelong victory over St Kilda at Kardinia Park means that the Cats leapfrogged the Tigers and relegated us to the bottom four. It is believed that provisions contained in the widely publicized performance-based contract of Danny Frawley mean that the Coach is now liable for a $150,000 payment to his employer, the Richmond Football Club.

Club insiders believe that the innovative contract adopted a four-tier approach to Frawley’s remuneration based on where Richmond finishes the season. A top four finish would propel his wage into the top tier of AFL coaches, a 5-8 finish means a $250,000 collect, 9-12 a pay packet of $50,000, and a bottom four finish means Frawley pays the Club $150,000.

It is believed that Frawley, who is known to enjoy a wager, suggested the creative performance-based provisions during his last round of contract negotiations.

It is not clear how Frawley will finance the payment. It is rumoured that he may be forced to sell the family potato farm at Bungaree near Ballarat, which has been in the Frawley Family for three generations, or bring his champion pacer Van Der Port out of retirement.

Richmond officials were unavailable for comment.

Posted on: Monday September 01, 2003 AEST by Tiger Snake
 

Roar34

I wuv the Tiggers
Aug 10, 2003
4,545
0
Castlemaine
Here's a humourous (or is it?) look at Pontiac's PBC from another website (sorry rosy...I still luvs ya but):

Frawley boost to bottom line

Richmond coffers are to receive an end of season windfall after the loss to Hawthorn in the last round. The Geelong victory over St Kilda at Kardinia Park means that the Cats leapfrogged the Tigers and relegated us to the bottom four. It is believed that provisions contained in the widely publicized performance-based contract of Danny Frawley mean that the Coach is now liable for a $150,000 payment to his employer, the Richmond Football Club.

Club insiders believe that the innovative contract adopted a four-tier approach to Frawley’s remuneration based on where Richmond finishes the season. A top four finish would propel his wage into the top tier of AFL coaches, a 5-8 finish means a $250,000 collect, 9-12 a pay packet of $50,000, and a bottom four finish means Frawley pays the Club $150,000.

It is believed that Frawley, who is known to enjoy a wager, suggested the creative performance-based provisions during his last round of contract negotiations.

It is not clear how Frawley will finance the payment. It is rumoured that he may be forced to sell the family potato farm at Bungaree near Ballarat, which has been in the Frawley Family for three generations, or bring his champion pacer Van Der Port out of retirement.

Richmond officials were unavailable for comment.

Posted on: Monday September 01, 2003 AEST by Tiger Snake