Sport: leave the religion out thanks.

[mld]

Not all charities are based on religion
Not all people that do great works are religious.

Medicins sans frontieres springs to mind as a non-religious charity.

Religious charities can cut both ways as they are often a means of keeping the missionary tradition alive, preaching religion to the vulnerable etc. I always ensure my charitable donations only go to non-religious charities.

 

[lefty]

George W Bush is taking his christianity to the heathens in Iraq!

 

[Redford]

George W Bush is taking his christianity to the heathens in Iraq!

Lucky them.

 

[Michael]

Perhaps George W should build them a couple of Casino's instead of trying to convert them.

 

[Rosy]

Anytime Jellobox.

As Redford said earlier.This stuff should probably be over in the christianity thread.

I thought about merging them or locking one. Considering similar discussions are happening on 2 threads it would end probably up a dogs breakfast if they were merged.

 

[Liverpool]

Anytime Jellobox.

As Redford said earlier.This stuff should probably be over in the christianity thread.

I thought about merging them or locking one. Considering similar discussions are happening on 2 threads it would end probably up a dogs breakfast if they were merged.

You could merge both and just call it the "Religious Tolerance" thread.

This thread has amazed me that it has gone 10 pages, all because when someone wins, they include God in their "thank you" speech.
To me, this is INtolerance by some posters.

Its a real pity that the same people are not as intolerant when religion is used as an excuse for violence and terrorism, where lives are threatened or taken.....yet, strike me down if someone uses religion in a 'positive' way by saying a smiple thank you after a sports event....

 

[mld]

Its a real pity that the same people are not as intolerant when religion is used as an excuse for violence and terrorism, where lives are threatened or taken.....yet, strike me down if someone uses religion in a 'positive' way by saying a smiple thank you after a sports event.... :-\

No need for snide attacks on people you disagree with hey. I think you will find most people are intolerant of religion because of the associated violence and terrorism and simply think sportspeople should not use their position of prominence to promote religion to young minds.

 

[Rosy]

This thread has amazed me that it has gone 10 pages, all because when someone wins, they include God in their "thank you" speech.
To me, this is INtolerance by some posters.

Piffle. :hihi The length of the thread isn't "all because when someone wins, they include God in their "thank you" speech". Threads more often than not meander all over the place and shift areas of focus, similar to general conversations, and this one certainly isn't all related to the original point raised.

 

[Knighter]

Piffle.....a word not used often enough these days.

 

[evo]

agreed

 

[Liverpool]

Its a real pity that the same people are not as intolerant when religion is used as an excuse for violence and terrorism, where lives are threatened or taken.....yet, strike me down if someone uses religion in a 'positive' way by saying a smiple thank you after a sports event.... :-\

No need for snide attacks on people you disagree with hey. I think you will find most people are intolerant of religion because of the associated violence and terrorism and simply think sportspeople should not use their position of prominence to promote religion to young minds.

mld,

If any poster thinks I have attacked them, then so be it.

It is not religion they should be intolerant of though.....they should be intolerant towards people who take their religion to the extreme.
THAT is the problem, not religion itself.

Most people on the forum know my stance towards Islam....and how that whole religion is tarnished because 'moderate Islams' are not showing enough strength and intolerance towards extremists/terrorists who have hijacked their religion.
The weakness towards Hilaly and his rantings, being a prime example.

Not to seem one-sided, here is another example:
While I support the Americans and the Australians being in Iraq until Iraqis themselves can defend, or bring some sort of stability to their country....I was equally annoyed when I heard this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html

I think Bush definitely should not have used God, or religion, when justifying the invasion.

Again....this isn't religion at fault...it is people twisting religion, to an extreme, to justify their own agendas.
Every religion has these 'extremists'....it is they, who people should be intolerant of, not religion itself.

It is the same with footy teams and sports teams in general...in that all clubs have supporters who can go too far.
We've seen it countless times with soccer hooligans in Europe....but do we show intolerance to the sport?
or intolerance to the people who are using sport, as a way to justify their violence?


As for sportspeople 'thanking God'....I don't see how this is promoting religion....? ???

I would think it is quite shallow of someone to 'thank God', just for the sake of thanking God on national TV, when they are not a religious person to begin with.
I can understand people getting annoyed at this.

But I think if someone is religious, and that religion is a a major part in that person's life....then I have no problem them thanking God, along with the other people in their life that they deem important enough to thank (parents, coaches, teammates, etc).

People using religion as a means to promote terrorism and violence....I can understand people being intolerant of that.

Sportspeople using religion, in a positive manner, where something good has been achieved, and the winner wants to thank God....and people are intolerant of that?
That, I don't understand.

 

[Tubytiger]

mld,

If any poster thinks I have attacked them, then so be it.

It is not religion they should be intolerant of though.....they should be intolerant towards people who take their religion to the extreme.
THAT is the problem, not religion itself.

Most people on the forum know my stance towards Islam....and how that whole religion is tarnished because 'moderate Islams' are not showing enough strength and intolerance towards extremists/terrorists who have hijacked their religion.
The weakness towards Hilaly and his rantings, being a prime example.

Not to seem one-sided, here is another example:
While I support the Americans and the Australians being in Iraq until Iraqis themselves can defend, or bring some sort of stability to their country....I was equally annoyed when I heard this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html

I think Bush definitely should not have used God, or religion, when justifying the invasion.

Again....this isn't religion at fault...it is people twisting religion, to an extreme, to justify their own agendas.
Every religion has these 'extremists'....it is they, who people should be intolerant of, not religion itself.

It is the same with footy teams and sports teams in general...in that all clubs have supporters who can go too far.
We've seen it countless times with soccer hooligans in Europe....but do we show intolerance to the sport?
or intolerance to the people who are using sport, as a way to justify their violence?


As for sportspeople 'thanking God'....I don't see how this is promoting religion....? ???

I would think it is quite shallow of someone to 'thank God', just for the sake of thanking God on national TV, when they are not a religious person to begin with.
I can understand people getting annoyed at this.

But I think if someone is religious, and that religion is a a major part in that person's life....then I have no problem them thanking God, along with the other people in their life that they deem important enough to thank (parents, coaches, teammates, etc).

People using religion as a means to promote terrorism and violence....I can understand people being intolerant of that.

Sportspeople using religion, in a positive manner, where something good has been achieved, and the winner wants to thank God....and people are intolerant of that?
That, I don't understand.







[/quote]



If i recall correctly Livers, it was a large amount of religious money that helped one G Bush into power throughout his last campaign . But that is for another thread i suppose - but i dont want to get into that as I have firm beliefs about this but would not want to go into it on here.

I understand your continuing support of your religious arguement but I basically think the minority really do fundamentally spoil their ideology for the majority. It is such a shame for humanity as a whole...

 

[Liverpool]

If i recall correctly Livers, it was a large amount of religious money that helped one G Bush into power throughout his last campaign . But that is for another thread i suppose - but i dont want to get into that as I have firm beliefs about this but would not want to go into it on here.

I understand your continuing support of your religious arguement but I basically think the minority really do fundamentally spoil their ideology for the majority. It is such a shame for humanity as a whole...

Even if he did gain a lot of funding from the Christian lobby....I still don't think it gives him the right to use God, or Christian beliefs, to justify his own actions.
That to me, is bordering on extremism of religion, which is what Bin Laden and his buddies are doing with Islam.

Yes, I would agree with that...the minority do spoil things for the majority....in most facets of life, not just religion.

 

[Tubytiger]

If i recall correctly Livers, it was a large amount of religious money that helped one G Bush into power throughout his last campaign . But that is for another thread i suppose - but i dont want to get into that as I have firm beliefs about this but would not want to go into it on here.

I understand your continuing support of your religious arguement but I basically think the minority really do fundamentally spoil their ideology for the majority. It is such a shame for humanity as a whole...

Even if he did gain a lot of funding from the Christian lobby....I still don't think it gives him the right to use God, or Christian beliefs, to justify his own actions.
That to me, is bordering on extremism of religion, which is what Bin Laden and his buddies are doing with Islam.

Yes, I would agree with that...the minority do spoil things for the majority....in most facets of life, not just religion.

We are on the same page livers on this account.....I know where ya coming from mate...

 

[mld]

Its a real pity that the same people are not as intolerant when religion is used as an excuse for violence and terrorism, where lives are threatened or taken.....yet, strike me down if someone uses religion in a 'positive' way by saying a smiple thank you after a sports event.... :-\

No need for snide attacks on people you disagree with hey. I think you will find most people are intolerant of religion because of the associated violence and terrorism and simply think sportspeople should not use their position of prominence to promote religion to young minds.

mld,

If any poster thinks I have attacked them, then so be it.

Well, you did misrepresent people's positions.

It is not religion they should be intolerant of though.....they should be intolerant towards people who take their religion to the extreme.
THAT is the problem, not religion itself.

I'm sure people are capable of deciding what they should be intolerant of. Myself, I'm intolerant of the mechanisms that prime people for religious extremism. As far as I am concerned, mainstream religion is a stepping stone to extrememism religion. Better to be intolerant of the root cause.

Most people on the forum know my stance towards Islam....and how that whole religion is tarnished because 'moderate Islams' are not showing enough strength and intolerance towards extremists/terrorists who have hijacked their religion.
The weakness towards Hilaly and his rantings, being a prime example.

I share your intolerance of radical Islam and intolerance of the root causes. The problem is blind faith, something other religions are guilty of and something they have taken advantage of in the past.

Not to seem one-sided, here is another example:
While I support the Americans and the Australians being in Iraq until Iraqis themselves can defend, or bring some sort of stability to their country....I was equally annoyed when I heard this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html

I think Bush definitely should not have used God, or religion, when justifying the invasion.

If those were his justifications, then he was being honest in using them.

Again....this isn't religion at fault...it is people twisting religion, to an extreme, to justify their own agendas.
Every religion has these 'extremists'....it is they, who people should be intolerant of, not religion itself.

I would have more respect for religious people if they just owned up. It is an ideological war, Bush's anti-papist American extreme christianism against extreme Islam.

It is the same with footy teams and sports teams in general...in that all clubs have supporters who can go too far.
We've seen it countless times with soccer hooligans in Europe....but do we show intolerance to the sport?
or intolerance to the people who are using sport, as a way to justify their violence?

I'm all for showing intolerance to a sport if the supporters create uncontrolled violence, as Italy have done recently. Luckily we havn't had that problem here.

As for sportspeople 'thanking God'....I don't see how this is promoting religion....? ???

Well, if you can't understand how attributing sporting success to religion is promoting religion, I can't hope to explain it to you.

I would think it is quite shallow of someone to 'thank God', just for the sake of thanking God on national TV, when they are not a religious person to begin with.

I would agree.

I can understand people getting annoyed at this.

But I think if someone is religious, and that religion is a a major part in that person's life....then I have no problem them thanking God, along with the other people in their life that they deem important enough to thank (parents, coaches, teammates, etc).

I would have no problem with them thanking their god as much as they liked in their private time. They should not be inflicting their personal beliefs on the kids watching. Last I checked, their parents, coaches and team-mates weren't personal beliefs.

People using religion as a means to promote terrorism and violence....I can understand people being intolerant of that.

Sportspeople using religion, in a positive manner, where something good has been achieved, and the winner wants to thank God....and people are intolerant of that?
That, I don't understand.

It is a case of sportspeople using a positive influence to promote their religion on young minds. Taking advantage of the good that has been achieved to promote their particular faith. It degrades their positive performances to use them as propaganda to promote religion.

 

[Liverpool]

I'm sure people are capable of deciding what they should be intolerant of. Myself, I'm intolerant of the mechanisms that prime people for religious extremism. As far as I am concerned, mainstream religion is a stepping stone to extrememism religion. Better to be intolerant of the root cause.
I'm all for showing intolerance to a sport if the supporters create uncontrolled violence, as Italy have done recently. Luckily we havn't had that problem here.

I would have no problem with them thanking their god as much as they liked in their private time. They should not be inflicting their personal beliefs on the kids watching. Last I checked, their parents, coaches and team-mates weren't personal beliefs.

It is a case of sportspeople using a positive influence to promote their religion on young minds. Taking advantage of the good that has been achieved to promote their particular faith. It degrades their positive performances to use them as propaganda to promote religion.

Mld,

I'm sorry mate, but I disagree 100% with the "showing intolerance to a root cause" argument.

Like religion, everything in life contains people who want to go to the extreme.

Every day, people speed in their cars, and every day people get killed in their cars.
Do we show intolerance to the root cause (driving cars...if we banned driving, there would be no car accidents!), or do we show intolerance to the idiots out there who go to the extreme and drink/drive, speed, and drive dangerously?

It is the same with religion.
There are many people out there who use religion in a positive manner.....maybe use a church and its services for somewhere to go and to feel better after a tragedy in their family, for example.
I think, with all religions, it is a minority that ruin it for the majority, which is like everything in life....driving, soccer crowds, Mexican waves at the cricket, etc.
If we showed intolerance to everything, because of "extremists" in life....then we would be a pretty boring race of people!

As for the sportspeople...
There have been numerous sportsmen (and women) who find some peace, or purpose, by going to a church, or praying, or kneeling towards Mecca.
If this is something in their life that they deem important, and they feel that it leaves them with a positive attitude, then well and good.
If after a victory, they want to thank God/Allah/Buddha, as they feel the positive attitude or mental wellbeing they received from their religion, helped them win a race/match, then I have no problem with that either.

You say it is promoting religion to young minds......c'mon mate......you haven't seen the Socceroos eating Weetbix?, Brett Lee running down a flight of stairs to get his Nokia on the "3" network?, Rafter wearing his Bonds?, Kewell flogging Pepsi?, Ironmen eating Nutri-Grain?, Camplin eating her Extra chewing-gum? etc, etc.
All these are sports people, taking advantage of the good that has been achieved in their lives, to promote products....true?

Then look at religion as just another product, if you like, the next time Matty Hayden wins a man-of-the-match, and thanks Victoria Bitter, the Commonwealth bank, "3" mobile phones, and God!

 

[mld]

I'm sure people are capable of deciding what they should be intolerant of. Myself, I'm intolerant of the mechanisms that prime people for religious extremism. As far as I am concerned, mainstream religion is a stepping stone to extrememism religion. Better to be intolerant of the root cause.
I'm all for showing intolerance to a sport if the supporters create uncontrolled violence, as Italy have done recently. Luckily we havn't had that problem here.

I would have no problem with them thanking their god as much as they liked in their private time. They should not be inflicting their personal beliefs on the kids watching. Last I checked, their parents, coaches and team-mates weren't personal beliefs.

It is a case of sportspeople using a positive influence to promote their religion on young minds. Taking advantage of the good that has been achieved to promote their particular faith. It degrades their positive performances to use them as propaganda to promote religion.

Mld,

I'm sorry mate, but I disagree 100% with the "showing intolerance to a root cause" argument.

Like religion, everything in life contains people who want to go to the extreme.

I'm happy for you to disagree.

Every day, people speed in their cars, and every day people get killed in their cars.
Do we show intolerance to the root cause (driving cars...if we banned driving, there would be no car accidents!), or do we show intolerance to the idiots out there who go to the extreme and drink/drive, speed, and drive dangerously?

We show increasing intolerance. Those who drive cars are allowed to do so. Those who believe in the fanstasy that they are allowed to speed and rive recklessly at the risk of other humans lose points etc and eventually lose the allowance to drive. That is of course until they wake up to reality and realise they have to drive according to the law.

It is the same with religion.

I wish it was. You get $200 and 3 demerits for believing in a personal god.

There are many people out there who use religion in a positive manner.....maybe use a church and its services for somewhere to go and to feel better after a tragedy in their family, for example.

There are many ways to feel better. Invoking grieving to justify religion is pretty pathetic and I hope it was unintentional.

I think, with all religions, it is a minority that ruin it for the majority, which is like everything in life....driving, soccer crowds, Mexican waves at the cricket, etc.

Actually it is the majority that justify it for the minority. You yourself go to great pains to highlight this when muslim nutters don't jump up in arms to decry the latest hilali rant.

If we showed intolerance to everything, because of "extremists" in life....then we would be a pretty boring race of people!

I disagree, I think we would be a very interesting race of people, ready to accept things in terms of reality rather than myths!

As for the sportspeople...
There have been numerous sportsmen (and women) who find some peace, or purpose, by going to a church, or praying, or kneeling towards Mecca.

Good for them.

I

f this is something in their life that they deem important, and they feel that it leaves them with a positive attitude, then well and good.
If after a victory, they want to thank God/Allah/Buddha, as they feel the positive attitude or mental wellbeing they received from their religion, helped them win a race/match, then I have no problem with that either.

You don't, but we do. We have already highlighted the problems we have with people using personal achievment to push personal beliefs on vulnerable minds.

You say it is promoting religion to young minds......c'mon mate......you haven't seen the Socceroos eating Weetbix?, Brett Lee running down a flight of stairs to get his Nokia on the "3" network?, Rafter wearing his Bonds?, Kewell flogging Pepsi?, Ironmen eating Nutri-Grain?, Camplin eating her Extra chewing-gum? etc, etc.
All these are sports people, taking advantage of the good that has been achieved in their lives, to promote products....true?

Then look at religion as just another product, if you like, the next time Matty Hayden wins a man-of-the-match, and thanks Victoria Bitter, the Commonwealth bank, "3" mobile phones, and God!

While I'm not a fan of the promotion of products, I can see the difference between promoting food and promoting an entire lifestyle and belief system based upon millenia old myths and hearsay.

 

[Liverpool]

Kaka: I've got God on my side

By MARK IRWIN
May 21, 2007

HE has destroyed Manchester United — now Kaka has Liverpool in his sights this week.
Yet the young Brazilian feared he would never play again after breaking his neck in a freak swimming pool accident.
Now the AC Milan playmaker, 25, reveals in detail for the first time how he fought his way back from near tragedy.
And he admits lifting the European Cup on Wednesday would be the fulfilment of his ultimate goal after achieving the 10 targets he set himself when disaster struck seven years ago.
Kaka’s mesmerising two-goal performance at Old Trafford last month set Milan on their way to a 5-3 aggregate victory over United in their Champions League semi-final.
The deeply-religious Brazilian believes it was God’s will which gave him the strength to fire the Italian giants to this week’s Athens final.
Yet Kaka will never forget the day his career was almost destroyed before it had really begun.

He recalled: “In October 2000, I was at my grandfather’s house in a small town in Brazil called Caldas Novas.
“I was sliding into his swimming pool but fell awkwardly and hit my head on the bottom of the pool.
“I twisted my neck but did not realise at the time that I had broken my sixth cervical bone.
“I went back to my club, Sao Paulo, the following day and actually trained for a couple of days. But I was in such pain the club eventually sent me to hospital for tests.
“The doctor was asking me whether my limbs were feeling numb and I told him I was OK.
“It was only then he revealed the serious nature of my injury.
“He was trying not to frighten me but admitted I was very lucky to have been able to train for two days with a broken neck and not suffer permanent damage.
“All I knew since a kid was that anyone with a broken neck would be disabled for life so my immediate question was would I ever be able to play football again?
“The doctor told me I would not be able to play for at least three months and I would have to wear a cervical collar all that time.
“Then they would be able to tell if I was going to fully recover.
“But after two months, the injury had healed and I was able to resume my football career.
“That was when I knew God was looking after me and that He was on my side.
“I was born a Christian, read the Bible and always placed my faith in God and Jesus. During my injury, many fears crossed my mind. Reading the Bible and praying were the things that really helped me through those dark moments.
“I had several extraordinary experiences with God which made me feel confident I would eventually be able to play football again.
“Now I believe faith helped me through. I knew God had a purpose for me and my life.”

Kaka revealed it was when his future was in the balance that he set 10 targets for his comeback.
The first was simply to kick a football again, the second to resume his professional career with Sao Paulo ranging through to playing in the World Cup finals for Brazil and moving to a major club in Europe.
Kaka admitted: “Now I have an 11th target and that is to win the Champions League.”
Kaka is now in his fourth year at Milan following a £5million move in 2003. He explained: “I chose Milan because in Sao Paulo I played alongside Leonardo for six months and he was constantly outlining how great the club was.
“I was very young when I planned out my career and everything so far has worked as I hoped it might.”

Everything, that is, apart from his last meeting with Liverpool in the 2005 European Cup final in Istanbul.
He admitted: “No one expected what happened but in football you can never be sure of anything.
“Two years have passed since Istanbul and I honestly don’t think about it any more.
“Liverpool played a great final and deserved to win the title. Now we have another chance to write our name on the trophy.
“Nobody in Milan is thinking about revenge. We are just happy to be in the final again.
“We know what Liverpool are capable of. They are an excellent squad, disciplined and well organised. You can see what a great job their coach has done.
“Liverpool’s strength is they are used to playing the big games. They never give up. They have already beaten Barcelona and Chelsea so we know they are a dangerous opponent.
“But we have taken a great deal of confidence from our semi-final win over Manchester United.”
Kaka has been linked to a swap with Chelsea’s Andriy Shevchenko.
Yet the Brazilian insisted: “The Premiership is an exciting league but I have a contract at Milan until 2011 and I am very happy where I am.”

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002390000-2007230240,00.html