Talking Politics | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Talking Politics

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,848
12,073
The other side of gas in the home, is our hobs. Gas hobs at this stage are better and more efficient than electric ones. How we transition towards electric hobs, I'm not sure. Maybe again it needs to be subsidised to reflect the poorer efficiency.
Induction cook tops a lot more efficient than gas, and easy to cook with. the only downside is that not all pots/pans will work on them.

We disconnected gas when our hot water died a couple of years ago. with solar we spend about $700/year powering our house.
 
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RoarEmotion

Tiger Legend
Aug 20, 2005
5,138
6,884
Induction cook tops a lot more efficient than gas, and easy to cook with. the only downside is that not all pots/pans will work on them.

We disconnected gas when our hot water died a couple of years ago. with solar we spend about $700/year powering our house.
Agree. Induction way more efficient. Gas burnt doesn’t all turn into useful energy as some is heating up water and vaporising it and lot of it just goes goes around the saucepan into the atmosphere. Induction pretty much puts the majority of the energy into the food. It’s about triple the efficiency. The biggest issue is we just aren’t used to doing it (myself included) and built out Victoria based on ultra cheap gas prices.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,743
18,414
Melbourne
Its all well and good to say that the transition will take time, I don't disagree with the point that there is a lot of capacity which needs to be replaced. We have been warned about climate change and we have known the causes for decades.

The problem is we took no notice and now we don't have the time.

We can take decades to transition, but there is a price: more warming, more unstable weather, more weather related disasters. more difficult to try and mitigate the inevitable damage that more warming will cause.

This has to be done quicker, we wasted the transition time we had and now we will have to make the transition a lot quicker.

DS
 
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TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
25,898
11,908
Its all well and good to say that the transition will take time, I don't disagree with the point that there is a lot of capacity which needs to be replaced. We have been warned about climate change and we have known the causes for decades.

The problem is we took no notice and now we don't have the time.

We can take decades to transition, but there is a price: more warming, more unstable weather, more weather related disasters. more difficult to try and mitigate the inevitable damage that more warming will cause.

This has to be done quicker, we wasted the transition time we had and now we will have to make the transition a lot quicker.

DS
It's all good Dave. We'll just keep transitioning everything to China, India and all the other developing countries n that way when the world keeps choking on it's own fumes we can point the blame at all them nasty foreigners for making the mess.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,186
21,996
Its all well and good to say that the transition will take time, I don't disagree with the point that there is a lot of capacity which needs to be replaced. We have been warned about climate change and we have known the causes for decades.

The problem is we took no notice and now we don't have the time.

We can take decades to transition, but there is a price: more warming, more unstable weather, more weather related disasters. more difficult to try and mitigate the inevitable damage that more warming will cause.

This has to be done quicker, we wasted the transition time we had and now we will have to make the transition a lot quicker.

DS

This is the perfect example where words make this sound much simpler than reality actually is.

You are right, there has been decades of policy failure from governments around the world, unfortunately we cannot go back in time and right the wrongs of the past, so we have to find a way forward towards a cleaner society, but your post addresses the issues that people around the world have with green initiatives.

Everyone wants everything now due to multiple government policy failures, but due to that, we also cannot expect it to be quicker.

You mention we need to transition urban vehicles quicker. There are about 80m new cars produced each year, as of 2019 (this has probably grown since then) there were around 1.1bn cars in the world. Its not about replacing capacity, to do what you want, you need to significantly INCREASE capacity. So to do that we need more factories (therefore we need to produce more concrete), you need more steel (so we need more iron ore / met coal), do you see the issues we have around urban vehicles. On top of that, you cannot forget the price differential. At this stage, electric vehicles are a premium product on the market, the cheapest Tesla car on the market is the Tesla 3 which costs around A$65k, significantly more than a petrol / diesel option. If you wanted to make that price competitive, you would likely need to drop $20-25k off the price via subsidies, so lets say we converted all car production across to the Tesla 3 and governments provided a sibsidy of A$25k / car, subsidies for these cars would cost around A$2tn / year. Maybe there is a better way to spend that money, maybe electric vehicles are purely going to be a premium product and we should be pushing more emphasis on transitional fuel vehicles for the time being like hybrids.

Just 1 example, but an example where IMO words are cheap, actions are going to determine what changes and for me, the vehicle industry isn't 1 of those low hanging fruit areas that we should immediately focus our attention. The electricity grid is that (and I have gone into why I believe the ALP's policies are a failure at this - and their price caps are ridiculous that they just brought in, another knee jerk reaction due to policy failure of the state governments in the past when signing production contracts with coal / gas companies - they would be far better to recover money via the royalty system and ensure that these royalties are provided back to households as rebates if they want to reduce power bills.

BTW - not the above where I spoke about cars, it doesn't even cover the more heavily polluting vehicles such as heavy goods vehicles etc which are unlikely to ever be able to move towards battery technology. Its why I'm fully behind people like Andrew Forrest (I know a lot on here don't like him for whatever reason), but he has made it clear what he sees as the fuels of the future and is pushing forward with it, and thats hydrogen. Funnily enough, the UNSW just released a study where they have converted a diesel engine into 1 that takes a combination of diesel / hydrogen and can run on this mixture at an 85% decrease in emissions. IMO these types of fuels (hydrogen / ammonia) are a much better focus than any sort of subsidy on electric vehicles, because they are 1 - a better option and 2 - have much wider application and hence can be monetised much easier and therefore costs of production will reduce much faster making it more economical to go this route in the long term. In a similar time frame to the UNSW study, Rolls Royce have also released a jet fuel engine that was also running on hydrogen.

This is a great graphic and explanation by Our World in Data that shows the transport industry. 16.2% of all emissions come from the transport sector, where 60% of 12% of road transport comes from passenger vehicles (the only real concept where electric vehicles will work, so thats about 7.2% of worldwide emissions, where in order to accelerate the sector, we might need to subsidise electric production by A$3.2tn annually for around 15-20 years. I personally think there are much better scenarios that we can focus on in the short term, and that means for passenger vehicles IMO, we need to be pushing as many people towards hybrid vehicles, yes its transitional but its the best option that we have that is economical.

The media also, is always up in arms about the airline industry about how they need to change / we need to fly less etc, but they make up less than 2% of total emissions, again when you are coming to low hanging fruit, we are looking in the wrong place.

1670642007827.png


The above graphic is a good illustration of why our focus needs to be on energy use that we use to power and heat our homes / businesses. Energy use in industry is 24.2%, energy use in buildings is 17.5% and the other areas which we should be focusing on is agriculture 18.4% (including waste 21.6%).

Those 3 areas amount to 63.3% of our energy usage and should be where we focus. Take agriculture for example, based on our shop prices, beef is generally the cheapest meat we can buy but cattle are also 1 of the largest producers of methane. Why not make this a premium product via adding tariffs to the sale of all beef material? There are ways that you can push people into eating differently, and the biggest mechanism for that is price.

We've already discussed the benefits of a targeted change to farming practises around the world and the benefits of this, and it would have a far quicker (and larger) impact than focusing on urban transportation does.

This is why the rhetoric around environmentalism needs to change, much of what is discussed in public is around easy to see emissions but many of those are the hardest to fix. We should be focusing our investments on easy to change, large scale emitters in the 1st instance and at this stage that emits urban vehicles, sure lets try and reduce the impact by pushing people towards transitional vehicles like hybrids, but lets not kid ourselves that we can speed things like urban transportation change, its just not possible with current capacities and the focus / investment $'s is better spent elsewhere IMO.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,743
18,414
Melbourne
Struggling to find where I said battery powered cars are the only solution to urban transport, what we really need to do is to reduce reliance on cars mainly shifting one person at a time. Plus, unless batteries get a hell of a lot better very very quickly they will not be the best solution to powering cars and trucks. I said we need green energy, I really don't care what it is, but liquid fuels tend to have more energy per Kg which is why fossil fuels are so difficult to replace.

Yes, it is quite simple, we need to shift quickly to energy sources which do not emit greenhouse gasses.

But Mr Poshman, you make the mistake so many do - you equate simple with easy. Often the simplest things are damned hard and the simple things can have complex implications.

The point isn't whether this is simple and/or complex, it is not whether it is easy or hard - the point is we have no choice but to transition fast because we are already seeing the impact of climate change and the impact is not good and will only get worse. We have no choice, we have to massively reduce reliance on fossil fuels as fast as we can.

I would add that, yes, fueling motor cars with a non-fossil fuel is not easy, but as you allude to above, I reckon it is easier than finding a non-emitting alternative to concrete which is one of the largest causes of emissions. Prioritising the easier tasks does not stop anyone from working on the more difficult tasks.

DS
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,186
21,996
Struggling to find where I said battery powered cars are the only solution to urban transport, what we really need to do is to reduce reliance on cars mainly shifting one person at a time. Plus, unless batteries get a hell of a lot better very very quickly they will not be the best solution to powering cars and trucks. I said we need green energy, I really don't care what it is, but liquid fuels tend to have more energy per Kg which is why fossil fuels are so difficult to replace.

Yes, it is quite simple, we need to shift quickly to energy sources which do not emit greenhouse gasses.

But Mr Poshman, you make the mistake so many do - you equate simple with easy. Often the simplest things are damned hard and the simple things can have complex implications.

The point isn't whether this is simple and/or complex, it is not whether it is easy or hard - the point is we have no choice but to transition fast because we are already seeing the impact of climate change and the impact is not good and will only get worse. We have no choice, we have to massively reduce reliance on fossil fuels as fast as we can.

I would add that, yes, fueling motor cars with a non-fossil fuel is not easy, but as you allude to above, I reckon it is easier than finding a non-emitting alternative to concrete which is one of the largest causes of emissions. Prioritising the easier tasks does not stop anyone from working on the more difficult tasks.

DS

I agree that we need to transition quickly to a lower emitting future as quick as possible and this is where the solutions really are that are transitional.

A lot of hardened greenies (not saying you are one btw), will say that we cannot move forward with ANY technology that emits regardless of how much of a decrease. Those technological advances don't yet exist at commercial scale, hence why greenies always tend to be disappointed. Transitional fuels and transitional technology that we create that reduces emissions IMO will always be good.

Take the UNSW study that i referenced that said they can convert diesel engines to those that use hydrogen (and our push towards hydrogen is gathering a very quick pace) is absolutely a transitional technology but some greenies would not push for it (as it still emits emissions, even if they are 85% reductions). The thing is, engine conversions are much cheaper than purchasing brand new vehicles, and therefore we can jump inside the capex cycle. Ie. we can encourage / incentivise businesses to move towards this (once hydrogen is available on a commercial scale) which will accelerate the move from emissions around HGV emissions much quicker than just pushing them to buy "more environmentally friendly vehicles" as again we are hit with capacity constraints. Engine conversions are a huge part of our transitional future for equipment such as HGV's, construction equipment, ships and aircraft. In terms of transport they make up 8.5% of global emissions. If we can reduce that by 85% with engine conversions to either hydrogen or ammonia, thats a significant drop in global emissions.

I'm fully behind the push for renewables in power generation. I've made those points quite clear on here, but there needs to be a significant push elsewhere too, such as in ocean seaweed farming, changing land farming practises etc.

I don't think I'm getting tied up with simple or complex, more so factoring in where the world will get caught out through capacity constraints which will impact our ability to convert our economy to a greener one.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,743
18,414
Melbourne
As a hardened greenie I reckon reducing emissions on diesel powered vehicles by running them on a combo of hydrogen and diesel is a great idea.

Real hardened greenies know you get the progress you can as quick as you can.

Where I draw the line is nuclear, the waste problem is too long lived and the fuel is too short term, plus there are emissions in getting the uranium to the reactors. Way too complicated, way too expensive, the waste and the security issues - silly way to boil a large kettle.

DS
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,186
21,996
As a hardened greenie I reckon reducing emissions on diesel powered vehicles by running them on a combo of hydrogen and diesel is a great idea.

Real hardened greenies know you get the progress you can as quick as you can.

Where I draw the line is nuclear, the waste problem is too long lived and the fuel is too short term, plus there are emissions in getting the uranium to the reactors. Way too complicated, way too expensive, the waste and the security issues - silly way to boil a large kettle.

DS

Yeah agree on nuclear. I'm not even sure why its being discussed in Australia, we have no need to generate that type of power at all.
 
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RoarEmotion

Tiger Legend
Aug 20, 2005
5,138
6,884
The only way to reduce emissions rapidly is to drastically curtail the quality of life of people with large co2 footprints. Pretty much everyone in the western world. You could also abandon the growth mantra. No political party / large society I can think of is going to embrace that as their platform.

Per discussion above going for low hanging fruit and transition will be next best to change things more quickly. A global price on co2e would do an even better job as the transition ideas would win economically very quickly. We will find out if we destroy our world or not.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,179
19,054
Per discussion above going for low hanging fruit and transition will be next best to change things more quickly. A global price on co2e would do an even better job as the transition ideas would win economically very quickly. We will find out if we destroy our world or not.

Global carbon price needs to be treated like tax for it to work and be accepted globally.

1. For it to work it needs to be progressive pricing of carbon emissions
2. For it to be accepted globally it needs to ensure that there enough loopholes so that those the produce the most, pay the least
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,348
19,924
Governments all round the world have been sitting on their hands and now the chickens have come home to roost.
A massive lack of leadership along with way too much self interest.

Russia’s war on the Ukraine, and Putin hijacking oil and gas supplies has created the perfect storm.

As for Australia, history will not be be kind to Abbott and Morrison, they have left behind a terrible legacy.

I know I keep saying it……..if only the Greens supported the Emission Trading Scheme. A simple yes, instead of playing politics.
It would’ve been a start at least, and Australia could look the world in the eye……….
 
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TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
25,898
11,908
Global carbon price needs to be treated like tax for it to work and be accepted globally.

1. For it to work it needs to be progressive pricing of carbon emissions
2. For it to be accepted globally it needs to ensure that there enough loopholes so that those the produce the most, pay the least
Sounds about right.

Guessing that all means carry on as normal and nothing ever changes.
 

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
Governments all round the world have been sitting on their hands and now the chickens have come home to roost.
A massive lack of leadership along with way too much self interest.

Electric vehicles are a great example of that. I've had a Tesla for a few years now and in the last 6 months or so there has been an explosion in the number of electric cars on the road.

Getting very difficult to find a charging station that isn't occupied when you are out and about when the reality is they should have been rolled out all over the place in massive numbers.

The people are showing they want cleaner transport options but the infrastructure isn't anywhere close to meeting the demand.
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,348
19,924
Electric vehicles are a great example of that. I've had a Tesla for a few years now and in the last 6 months or so there has been an explosion in the number of electric cars on the road.

Getting very difficult to find a charging station that isn't occupied when you are out and about when the reality is they should have been rolled out all over the place in massive numbers.

The people are showing they want cleaner transport options but the infrastructure isn't anywhere close to meeting the demand.
I can still see the sneer on Smirk Morrison's face in the lead up to the 2019 election. In response to Labour's promise of increasing the uptake of electric vehicles, Smirk said, it won't tow your trailer, and that Labour wants to ruin your weekend.

What a disgrace he was as Prime Minister.
 
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TT33

Yellow & Black Member
Feb 17, 2004
6,890
5,952
Melbourne
I can still see the sneer on Smirk Morrison's face in the lead up to the 2019 election. In response to Labour's promise of increasing the uptake of electric vehicles, Smirk said, it won't tow your trailer, and that Labour wants to ruin your weekend.

What a disgrace he was as Prime Minister.


Yep, ScuMo,, yesterday's man in every sense of the word.
 
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tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,348
19,924
Been reading an article on RoboDebt what a disgraceful money grabbing policy. It was known before it was implemented that it was dodgy and not legal.

To think, If the Morrison government had read the room in the last year or two before the election, and had more environmentally friendly policies, they may well have won the election.
The Australian public most probably would not have found out about Morrison being minister for everything, and there certainly wouldn't have been a Royal Commission into RoboDebt.
The Liberals stacking of the The Administrative Appeals Tribunal, is another terrible legacy that they'll be remembered for.

What a waste, the last, almost decade of Liberal Governments were, I can't think of anything meaningful that they achieved. But can think of plenty of things they did wrong.
 
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Bunnerz

Richmond are cool man
Aug 12, 2003
3,136
437
Geelong
So you have evidence, that a lot of crimes are unpunished or unreported.

Wouldn't the fact that it's unreported mean, there's no evidence at all?

I have immediate family who work in this area, and whilst I think that there's a very
lenient system where people get 43 more chances than they should, there is in fact a
"punishment" - just an ineffective one.

I am sickened by how far things go to support people who've offended. But, stritcly speaking,
they do get some form of court appointed rehabilitation device.
Yes I have evidence.