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Talking Politics

Azza said:
The Education Union is saying public schools will get less than 20% of that promised by Gonski. They obviously have an axe to grind, so who knows how accurate that is.

Mind you, they've now been proved right when during the election they called the lie on the LNP Gonski promise, so maybe they have good mail.

So no actual figure. It's supposition at the moment.
Just on the Gonski Review, I thought the full model was never accepted or was to be implemented by the previous government. With WA, Queensland and NT still to accept the previous offer by Labor where would that leave them I wonder?
Given that the current government has said there would be an additional $230m? of funds available is all the furore about where the money is actually going to go?
I'd like to believe that extra money is spent where it's needed most to start with.



AN elite private boys school is holding an opening next week for its new recording studio, built to allow students to extend their musical studies with "exposure to music-industry practice".

The school charges parents almost $30,000 a year in fees, raising almost $35 million in 2011, and is sitting on net assets of $105m. Like most private schools, it will again raise its school fees next year by about 6 per cent.

The school also received more than $2.5m from the federal government and $1.4m from the state government in 2011.

Across town, public and private schools teaching children from disadvantaged backgrounds would struggle to have recorders, much less an industry-grade recording studio.

It raises the question, does the private school really need that extra $4m a year from government? Or would that money be better invested in schools teaching children who struggle to read words, much less music?

It's not as if the government funding is used to offset the increases in private school fees, making the top private schools more accessible to less wealthy families. Despite the millions they receive each year from government, elite private school fees climb regardless.

It's an example of the inequity in the school system that the Gonski review of school funding sought to redress.

As Education Minister Christopher Pyne is fond of saying, it's not all about money. The crucial issue is how and where that money is best spent.

And this is where the Labor government made a fatal error and lost control of the school funding debate. It focused on the extra $14.5 billion it was pouring into the system rather than the fundamental structural reform the Gonski model heralds.

The problem facing Pyne is not that the Gonski model is bad and unworkable; the problem is the way Labor mishandled its implementation. It would be a mistake for him to throw out reforms that provide a fair, transparent and equitable way of giving schools the money they need.


The Gonski reforms redistribute money to schools that need it most, but the main message conveyed over the past two years was that Gonski means more money. It was fed by the perception that Labor was offering sweetheart deals to get states to sign up.

In fact, the extra money is the least of the changes.

The new model starts with the premise that all children, regardless of their family background, are entitled to some funding from government for their education. It is provided as a uniform base payment with private school students receiving a percentage depending on their family circumstances.

On top of that, the need of each student in every school is addressed through supplementary payments called loadings, which are fully funded by government for public and private schools regardless of a student's background. In this way, the Gonski model is blind to a school's sector and focused on the individual students.

It replaces a system that funded government schools for the number of students, and private schools for the socioeconomic status of their students, based on their home postcode. Targeted funding for disadvantage was provided separately and changed regularly, but the Gonski loadings bring special needs funding into recurrent spending.

This is the heart of the transformational reform under the Gonski model. It is also what Labor spectacularly failed to explain to the public about its reforms.

The Gonski committee conducted its review with one hand tied behind its back, and was committed from the outset to increased funding because of Julia Gillard's promise no school would lose a dollar. Later, Ms Gillard went further and guaranteed every school, no matter its financial circumstances, an extra 3 per cent in funding.

If the review had been able to redistribute money and (the horror!) cut government funding to some schools that manifestly don't need it, it's likely that some extra money would still have been required to bring all schools on to a level playing field.


While federal funding previously was based on what states spent in schools, which went up and down, the Gonski review calculated the cost of educating all students to a high level.

The biggest winners under the Gonski reforms are the "average" schools, which are not disadvantaged enough to attract extra funding and whose communities are not rich enough to raise millions of dollars. Under the new arrangements, every indigenous student in those schools attracts a loading, and every student in the bottom half of socioeconomic measures attracts extra money.


A clear illustration of the Gonski model in practice is in NSW, where the government has published full details of funding for each school sector over the next six years and for every public school next year.

Because the system is transparent, principals and schools understand the way funding is allocated and why funding might move from one school to another. It is considered fair: even cutting funds to 200 of the 2200 schools has passed with little comment.

But Labor oversimplified its argument for reform, and in the process underestimated the capacity of the community to understand the need to reform school funding. Pyne does not need to develop an alternate model, he just needs to implement the Gonski model and finish the job Labor started.

- See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/implement-the-gonski-model-as-the-fairest-way-of-funding-schools/story-e6frgd0x-1226770833511#sthash.etmt5xbJ.dpuf


There is still a hell of a lot of work to be done.
 
willo said:
So no actual figure. It's supposition at the moment.

Perhaps you should tell the NSW, Vic, Tas, and SA premieres that. They seem to be very agitated.

And if all that is so clear, it's interesting that Pyne felt the need to lie before the election -

"Tony Abbott and the Coalition have confirmed that they will commit the same amount of federal school funding as the Government over the forward estimates. Every single school in Australia will receive, dollar for dollar, the same federal funding over the next four years whether there is a Liberal or Labor Government after September 7."

http://www.pyneonline.com.au/media/media-releases/aeus-dishonest-campaign-on-school-funding
 
Azza said:
Perhaps you should tell the NSW, Vic, Tas, and SA premieres that. They seem to be very agitated.

Preserving self interest?
So where does the funding for WA, QLD & the NT come from I wonder? Why didn't they sign under the previous government, what were their concerns re the funding they were to be allocated? Still a lot of questions and confusion abound.
 
willo said:
Preserving self interest?
So where does the funding for WA, QLD & the NT come from I wonder? Why didn't they sign under the previous government, what were their concerns re the funding they were to be allocated? Still a lot of questions and confusion abound.

It's a part of the funding Labor offered them and they refused that went back into general revenue. There's no mystery, Hockey was well aware of it at the time. WA's refusal at least was done in consultation with Abbott.

If it's all so innocent, why is Abbott now denying that Pyne said that no individual schools would be worse-off
 
WA and QLD are on record that they knocked back Gonski at the request of the LNP. They were promised goodies when the LNP took power.

And now we're seeing it.
 
Confused by Coalition on Gonski? Let Tony and Chris explain …(crikey.com.au)



Confused by Coalition on Gonski? Let Tony and Chris explain …

by Bernard Keane


Confused about the Coalition’s position on education funding and the implementation of the outcomes of the Gonski panel review of funding? Were we too — so we got Tony Abbott and education spokesman Christopher Pyne into a room to thrash things out on just where they stand …

Tony Abbott: “Overall, the 66% of Australian school students who attend public schools get 79% of government funding. The 34% of Australians who attend independent schools get just 21% of government funding. So there is no question of injustice to public schools here. If anything, the injustice is the other way.”

Christopher Pyne: “The greatest determinants of the outcome of students is the parental involvement in their children’s lives at school, it’s about principal autonomy, it’s about the independence that teachers have to teach, it’s about governing council control of schools.”

Abbott: “There’s the threat to indexation, there’s the threat to low-fee schools and there is the threat of an effective means test on parents. All of that is there in the Gonski recommendations.”

Pyne: “Look there’s no doubt at all that we have to clean up the arrangements that exist for the support of children with a disability or indigenous students, and students from non-English speaking backgrounds. The treatment of children with disabilities in the school sector at the moment is appalling. I absolutely agree with that.”

Abbott: “There is nothing substantial, nothing concrete, that we have seen that we are confident would be an improvement on the SES funding model that the Howard Government put in place.”

Pyne: “The government will put off implementing the new model until after the next election. It will be their third election without an education policy in schools. In 2007 they squibbed it, 2010 they squibbed it and when the next election comes around they’ll squib it again.”

Abbott: “The existing system is not broken. It’s not broken … I think we are better fine-tuning the existing system rather than trying to turn the whole thing on its head.”

Pyne: “My view is the status quo is a better model than what the government is offering because it provides certainty, it provides higher indexation rates, it doesn’t abolish the national partnerships or the targeted programs and it delivers to the states more money over the next four years. The government is actually cutting it.”

Abbott: “Well, we don’t know what the deal is … it is thus far a deal that is entirely private between the Prime Minister and the Premier. Now, we are not going to sign up anything we don’t know.”

Pyne: ”I think he has been conned. I think NSW has signed up to a very bad deal. Now that they have the opportunity to see the budget in all its black and whitedness [sic], it’s quite clear that the government is cutting education for the next four years.”

Abbott: “We won’t back a so-called national education system that some states don’t support.”

Pyne: “In fact this is not a Gonski response it is a Conski. It is not a Gonski, it is a Conski.”

Abbott: “The only way to ensure that no school is worse off is, I believe to stick with the existing system.”

Pyne: “Forget the hype — over the next four years it appears the federal government’s total investment in school funding will decrease by $325 million.”

Abbott: “We will match the offers that Labor has made. We will make sure that no school is worse off.”

Pyne: “We will adopt exactly the same funding envelope as Labor over the forward estimates so that school principals and parents, that school systems, states and territories can plan from 2014 and onwards knowing that they will attract exactly the same funds whether they are in the new model or out of the new model that Labor would have given them if the school system had gone ahead as planned.”

Abbott: “We want to end the uncertainty by guaranteeing that no school will be worse off over the forward estimates period.”

Pyne: “Labor should have been doing this last year. They should have been planning a new model in 2012.”

Abbott: “I’m not on about the politics of this.”
 
willo said:
Any figures?

there are no figures because the Libs have dumped the Gonski model without an alternative.
the issue isnt so much the money, but the blatant politicking. when the gonski funding was announced the Libs opposed it. the continued to bag it until a few days before the election when suddenly the Libs changed their tune. suddenly they were onboard. they did not want to lose votes because of uncertainty about education funding.
now they are in power they have reverted to their previous position.

do you think this is ok?
 
Its disappointing, a little depressing, but not unexpected. The conservatives redistribute wealth upwards, has always been the way, and its getting more pronounced. The thinking astounds me, I'm naive I guess. Gonski would have meant funding changes that would have made a real difference to less well-off kids lives. The old coalition model they seem to be reverting to will just make sure that well-heeled schools stay well-heeled, of get even weller heeled. I mean what more facilities can these schools get? Anti-gravity simulators? Hyperbaric chambers? Indoor snowboard half-pipes?

How/ Why do non-rich people fall for this sh!t?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/inequality-at-the-heart-of-rejection-of-gonski-program-20131130-2yi54.html

BTW that was a rhetorical question. I know how and why people fall for it. Its just that the optimist/ idealist that I am means I get disappointed and angry about it at times.
 
Government's double Gonski backflip an act of brazen politicking
November 26, 2013
Opinion

Mark Kenny
Chief political correspondent

Christopher Pyne is too occupied with ripping down the education funding architecture of the past Labor government to spend a bit of extra time studying it first.

An offer by members of the Gonski panel to take him through the detail before he begins the demolition job has been rebuffed.

Of all portfolios, for a minister of state for education to appear so wilfully uninterested in further evidence is concerning at several levels.

At stake is no less than the optimum usage of multiple billions in taxpayer funds and, therefore, the future productivity of the country.

His refusal to allocate the few hours needed to satisfy himself – and be seen to be satisfying himself – of the facts, exposes an emerging pattern for this government: that its primary energies are more often directed at undoing reforms rather than making them.
Pyne clearly thinks he has the field covered and has no need for any extra tuition.

That would be a difficult proposition for any new minister to justify, let alone one with such a compromised history in this policy area.

Before the election, Tony Abbott and his then education spokesman performed an undignified backflip on the so-called Gonski model.

"As far as school funding is concerned, Kevin Rudd and I are on a unity ticket," Mr Abbott stunned voters with on Friday August 2, this year.

"There is no difference between Kevin Rudd and myself when it comes to school funding."


It was as brazen a policy reversal as has been attempted in federal politics in many a season. Just a day before, Pyne, in discussing what he was fond of calling the "conski" model, said: "The truth is of course it's a great con ... and the Coalition's not going to pretend the government is actually delivering new money when it isn't."

In the hours that followed those comments however, Abbott concluded he had lost the argument. Like it or not, the Gonski deal was being embraced by state governments of both stripes, and was being supported by voters as the Liberals' own market testing had shown.

An election was imminent.

And so it went. Abbott backflipped (as above), Victoria agreed to the deal, as did the Catholic school sector. Kevin Rudd set the election date for September 7.

The argument was settled.

Yet now, in government, Pyne wants to salvage his original opposition by arguing that neither Victoria nor Tasmania actually formally signed up, and neither did the Catholic school sector.

They might have agreed but they hadn't signed.

Pyne is now using an essentially legalistic justification for breaking a clear and unqualified political undertaking – and one from which the then opposition was happy to take the political dividend at the time.

Asked if he would take the briefing from the Gonski panel, Pyne said no, explaining: "I have to get on with the job of being education minister."

Many would say that after the complex policy work undertaken over years, and the subsequent agreements entered into in good faith by states such as NSW, a methodical "adult" government would at least try to ensure it had built public confidence and trust before changing course again.

It appears that the government's aim is nakedly political: to ensure that the Gonski reforms are not able to be cited in future years as part of a Labor legacy.

Two major polls are now showing support for the government is already sliding.

One explanation is that an image is emerging of a new government which is not what it said it would be.

That rather than being calm, purposeful, and methodical, it is coming across as mean, clever, and political.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/governments-double-gonski-backflip-an-act-of-brazen-politicking-20131126-2y6zx.html#ixzz2mG6q3GwF
 
Brodders17 said:
there are no figures because the Libs have dumped the Gonski model without an alternative.
the issue isnt so much the money, but the blatant politicking. when the gonski funding was announced the Libs opposed it. the continued to bag it until a few days before the election when suddenly the Libs changed their tune. suddenly they were onboard. they did not want to lose votes because of uncertainty about education funding.
now they are in power they have reverted to their previous position.

do you think this is ok?

I'd be interested to read the answer to that question too.
 
Brodders17 said:
there are no figures because the Libs have dumped the Gonski model without an alternative.
the issue isnt so much the money, but the blatant politicking. when the gonski funding was announced the Libs opposed it. the continued to bag it until a few days before the election when suddenly the Libs changed their tune. suddenly they were onboard. they did not want to lose votes because of uncertainty about education funding.
now they are in power they have reverted to their previous position.

do you think this is ok?

So will there be more money available or less? The Libs claim there will be more, is that incorrect?
Funny how you say it isn't so much about the money, but blatant politicking". If the money goes where it's needed it's seems like the "blatant politicking" comes from the AEU and anti government supporters.
Some seem to think the Gonski model is the answer to all, but in reality it wasn't the complete model that was implemented. Just parts of it.
Their "previous position" is what?
I'm not sure what the question "do you think this is ok" is referring to.. Is it "their previous position"?
My position is as it's always been, money and resources to where they're needed most. Nothing has changed there.

But with all the furore about disbanding "quasi" Gonski there haven't been many explanations as to where the money will actually be directed. If it goes where it's needed, fine. If not I'd be disappointed.
What if the alternative is better? Who has a crystal ball to say otherwise?
 
willo said:
What if the alternative is better? Who has a crystal ball to say otherwise?

That's the problem Willo - with Gonski we had a scheme that was researched, well-understood and supported by state governments from both sides of the political spectrum, teachers, unions and mangement.

Now we have.... what?
 
antman said:
That's the problem Willo - with Gonski we had a scheme that was researched, well-understood and supported by state governments from both sides of the political spectrum, teachers, unions and mangement.

Now we have.... what?

Well not quite Ant.
The Gonski Model was in theory, The complete Gonski Model was never implemented was it? Just parts of it.
Not quite all state governments/territories supported it either otherwise they would have all signed up. I think it's a bit far fetched to say that Qld, WA & the NT didn't sign for some ulterior motive that they were in cahoots with the Libs and would get something in return after the election is pretty funny. Why then did NSW & Victoria sing on?

But anyway people will believe what they want. As I said previously, I just hope funding goes where it is needed
 
tigersnake said:
How/ Why do non-rich people fall for this sh!t?

It would help if they weren't lied to during the election. Makes you wonder about any mandate this government claims.
 
willo said:
Well not quite Ant.
The Gonski Model was in theory, The complete Gonski Model was never implemented was it? Just parts of it.
Not quite all state governments/territories supported it either otherwise they would have all signed up. I think it's a bit far fetched to say that Qld, WA & the NT didn't sign for some ulterior motive that they were in cahoots with the Libs and would get something in return after the election is pretty funny. Why then did NSW & Victoria sing on?

But anyway people will believe what they want. As I said previously, I just hope funding goes where it is needed

Not all state govs. signed up, true - but all are unhappy with the current state of affairs.

I don't think it's a question of "believing" what you what in this case - we have a report, recommendations and a funding model replaced with something Pyne will pull out of his arse at a later date. That's not good government, or politics.

We all hope "funding goes where it is needed" but it will take a lot more than hope for this to occur.
 
Why are people now confused when it comes to Tony. It was obvious before the election what attributes he would bring to the country. Now it is coming home to roost. :hihi Good times ahead....
 
willo said:
So will there be more money available or less? The Libs claim there will be more, is that incorrect?
Funny how you say it isn't so much about the money, but blatant politicking". If the money goes where it's needed it's seems like the "blatant politicking" comes from the AEU and anti government supporters.
Some seem to think the Gonski model is the answer to all, but in reality it wasn't the complete model that was implemented. Just parts of it.
Their "previous position" is what?
I'm not sure what the question "do you think this is ok" is referring to.. Is it "their previous position"?
My position is as it's always been, money and resources to where they're needed most. Nothing has changed there.

But with all the furore about disbanding "quasi" Gonski there haven't been many explanations as to where the money will actually be directed. If it goes where it's needed, fine. If not I'd be disappointed.
What if the alternative is better? Who has a crystal ball to say otherwise?

as far as i can tell the Libs have not released any details of their proposed education funding yet so it is hard to compare. when the libs actual outline their policy then the money and where it is going to can be compared.

the fact remains before the election they jumped on the Gonski bandwagon and said every school could expect the same amount of funding regardless of who won. they have now changed their tune.

do you think it is ok for a party to change their policy so quickly after an election?
and do you also see how to a sceptic it could look as if they were never in favour of the Gonski model at all, instead just told the electorate what they wanted to hear before the election?
 
and now Abbott is trying to deny what he said, he is a reminder:

''every single school in Australia will receive, dollar for dollar, the same federal funding over the next four years whether there is a Liberal or Labor government''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/prime-minister-tony-abbott-blames-gonski-funding-confusion-20131201-2yjr3.html#ixzz2mHKISsW3

i guess this goes with some of the other great Abbott quotes over the years, this is a favourite:

''If Australia is greatly to reduce its carbon emissions, the price of carbon-intensive products should rise … a new tax would be the intelligent sceptic's way to deal with minimising emissions because it would be much easier than a property right to reduce or to abolish should the justification for it change.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbotts-controversial-speeches-wiped-20131130-2yiez.html#ixzz2mHKta6m4
 
Brodders17 said:
''intelligent sceptic's way to deal with minimising emissions''

there is no other way to slice this: 'intelligent sceptic' is an oxymoron in this context.