Terrorist attacks in Paris | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Terrorist attacks in Paris

YinnarTiger

Tiger Legend
May 2, 2007
7,521
727
75
Gippsland
millar time said:
Gibberish of the year contender there bullus

Good article by Peter singer a few months ago

http://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150311000276#jyk

The gibberish is in Singer's article.

He asserts that everyone knows that Daesh and violent extremism are based upon the precepts of Islam rather than Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism or Buddhism. He later admits that he does not know enough of Islamic beliefs to argue with a Daesh supporter that Daesh is not true to the teachings of Islam.
 

tigertim

something funny is written here
Mar 6, 2004
29,895
12,164
bullus_hit said:
Again, Djevv, you merely point out that female circumcision occurs in Muslim society and have ignored the cultural pressures placed on females. I abhor the practice but to point the finger at Islam in isolation is to ignore the reality.

"Female Genital Mutilation occurs in non-Muslim societies in Africa and is practiced by Christians, Muslims and Animists alike. In Egypt, where perhaps 97 percent of girls suffer genital mutilation, both Christian Copts and Muslims are complicit. Thus, it has long been concluded to be a cultural practice, not connected to religion."

http://www.stopfgmmideast.org/background/islam-or-culture/

As for the Muslim headwear, I don't agree with Burkas and feel they are counter to our values in Western society, but I also don't see them often enough to start howling down all Muslims for the way they dress. Once again, we are talking about a small minority, to include attacks on the hijab opens a poisonous can of worms. Do we then start banning skull caps, turbans and tunics? If a Muslim female wants to wear a head scarf then that should be her choice, to take away the right is actually counter to our values as a Western society.

I mentioned in my previous post that there is no explicit mention of violence or implicit punishment when it comes to apostasy. Like any religion, abandonment is frowned upon but to suggest it is a sure fire way to execution is wrong, again this is a state issue and if you object to the death penalty in such circumstances then it would pay to cite those regimes living under such a hard line rule. I'm no fan of Saudia Arabia, but that doesn't mean I go tarnishing the reputations of those muslims living in SE Asia for example. Your quote isn't from the Koran, it is an interpretation and is the very attitude that has caused many to flee their homelands. On one hand we admonish groups like the Taliban & IS, we bomb them into submission, we then refuse people asylum in the name of border protection and go so far as to imprison children and women on island detention centres. For people like Tony Abbott to then claim the moral superiority with his belief system is bordering on psychopathic, he has now gone so far as to imprison anyone who dares speak about the systemic cruelty on places like Nauru. The subject of human rights is not one of Abbott's strong points, and that's putting it mildly.

As for the remaining quotes, again these are interpretations, you could get something similar in the rhetoric spouted off by those waving the flag at Reclaim Australia. Domestic violence isn't the sole domain of Muslims, it is almost at epidemic proportions here in Australia. It's the elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge because it sits uncomfortably with the way Australians see themselves as flag bearers of gender equality. Until we clean up our own backyard we have no right to lecture others about treating women with decency and respect.
I'd hardly say DV is the "elephant in the room" it's being spoken about and being very broadly acknowledged as a disgrace for quite a few years now. Yes it was a hidden disgrace but we are all talking about it and not turning a blind eye anymore.
 

bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
tigertim said:
I'd hardly say DV is the "elephant in the room" it's being spoken about and being very broadly acknowledged as a disgrace for quite a few years now. Yes it was a hidden disgrace but we are all talking about it and not turning a blind eye anymore.

Attitudes are changing for sure, Turnbull has just announced a 100 million package to address the issue, Abbott on the other hand made significant cuts to support services. This was a recent statement made by the current PM.

“We must elevate this issue to our national consciousness, and make it clear that domestic, family or sexual violence is unacceptable in any circumstances,”

The statistics are very confronting, here's an excerpt from the Business Insider.

"The common statistics are increasingly well-known, and an indictment on male attitudes to violence towards women in Australia. One in six Australian women has experienced violence from a current or former partner. One in three Australian women will experience violence in their lifetime. Sixty-three women have been killed in Australia this year."

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/these-new-stats-reveal-the-horrifying-scale-of-domestic-violence-in-australia-2015-9
 

millar time

Tiger Cub
Nov 25, 2015
67
0
YinnarTiger said:
The gibberish is in Singer's article.

He asserts that everyone knows that Daesh and violent extremism are based upon the precepts of Islam rather than Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism or Buddhism. He later admits that he does not know enough of Islamic beliefs to argue with a Daesh supporter that Daesh is not true to the teachings of Islam.

Read it again. He's not arguing the validity of their interpretation just that they claim to interpret it in a certain way and base their beliefs and actions on Islam.


Why the denial of the link?
 

millar time

Tiger Cub
Nov 25, 2015
67
0
YinnarTiger said:
What makes you think I have denied the link? I have only pointed out the lack of logic in his argument.

I think you've misread it. All he says is Daesh base their beliefs on Islam but he doesn't know enough about Islam to argue the validity of their interpretation. Simple.

The continual denial that Daesh has nothing to do with Islam is farcical.
 

YinnarTiger

Tiger Legend
May 2, 2007
7,521
727
75
Gippsland
It's a logical fallacy known as begging the question. You've made an assertion without any evidence to back it up, other than labelling it farcical or gibberish.
 

millar time

Tiger Cub
Nov 25, 2015
67
0
YinnarTiger said:
It's a logical fallacy known as begging the question. You've made an assertion without any evidence to back it up, other than labelling it farcical or gibberish.

So Daesh has nothing to do with Islam?
 

millar time

Tiger Cub
Nov 25, 2015
67
0
You mean moderate Islam of course. ISIS quote directly from the Quran. They wish to estaish gods principality and live under gods law. We should let them. Free one-way airfares to the new Islamic state.
 

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
3,091
252
NT
www.youtube.com
Hi Bullus the site I referenced is an Islamic Q&A site which 'aims to provide intelligent, authoritative responses to anyones question about Islam, whether it be from a Muslim or a non-Muslim, and to help solve general and personal social problems. Responses are composed by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, a known Islamic lecturer and author. Questions about any topic are welcome, such as theology, worship, human and business relations, or social and personal issues...The responses are handled by Sheikh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid, using only authentic, scholarly sources based on the Quran and sunnah, and other reliable contemporary scholarly opinions. References are provided where appropriate in the responses. All requests are held with confidence, and replies are available personally and/or publicly (posted to this site).'

All of my questions it answered from sources considered authoritative. It's answers were to the point. If you want a fuller discussion follow the link. All of your responses were in effect Tu Quoque fallacies. If others do it it's OK for Muslims to be guilty as well. The point I was trying to make was that the issues I mentioned are either religious duties or OK as long as you don't go too far.

You seem to have a problem with the site? Do you consider it wrong or mis-informed? Do you have any reason for thinking this?
 

Djevv

Tiger Champion
Feb 11, 2005
3,091
252
NT
www.youtube.com
In that Singer article (which was hardly gibberish!) he makes this statement:

'Finally, the repeated use of “Islamic” as part of the description of enemy groups may make it appear that the West is “at war with Islam.” That could lead more moderate Muslims to fight alongside the extremists, thus broadening the conflict and making it more difficult to end.'

I think the bolted sentence is the real problem everyone is worried about. But surely if IS has the wrong interpretation and Islam is peaceful there is nothing to fear? I think the fear of speaking up comes from what people - on both sides of the debate - believe is the true nature of Islam.
 

bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
Djevv said:
You seem to have a problem with the site? Do you consider it wrong or mis-informed? Do you have any reason for thinking this?

I wouldn't consider it wrong or right, it comes down to interpretation, the Koran itself doesn't stipulate any punishment apart from chastisement by Allah. The Hadith on the other hand is much more hard line on the issue, in fact death is quite clearly defined as being just for abandoning the faith, so it basically comes down to the text in which one subscribes. Whilst there are some very hard line attitudes out there, the voice of moderation can be found in SE Asia and Europe whereby death for apostasy is seen as a breach of human rights. I personally don't like the way some countries conduct themselves, the Saudis are known butchers and have been stuck in the dark ages for centuries, interestingly enough they remain close allies with America, despite hosting most of the 9/11 terrorists.

From a personal perspective I have been to Turkey, Indonesia & Malaysia, I didn't find any of these places to be barbaric or nasty. This is why I take objection to singling out the entire religion for persecution. The problem of fundamentalism needs to be tackled but the terms of reference need to be toned down and shouldn't simply refer to all of the 1.6 billion muslims who inhabit the planet. Most of the failed states have been Arab - why is that? Is it because we have meddled in their affairs and attracted extremists? I know the Cold War led to arming of the Taliban, we have seen in Iraq the huge vacuum left in Saddam's wake, we have seen the outsourcing of military action assisting groups such as IS. First Assad was the enemy, now he is an ally, there is no coherent strategy and the longer time goes on, the more apparent it becomes that we have absolutely no idea.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
17,850
21,180
bullus_hit said:
From a personal perspective I have been to Turkey, Indonesia & Malaysia, I didn't find any of these places to be barbaric or nasty. This is why I take objection to singling out the entire religion for persecution. The problem of fundamentalism needs to be tackled but the terms of reference need to be toned down and shouldn't simply refer to all of the 1.6 billion muslims who inhabit the planet. Most of the failed states have been Arab - why is that? Is it because we have meddled in their affairs and attracted extremists? I know the Cold War led to arming of the Taliban, we have seen in Iraq the huge vacuum left in Saddam's wake, we have seen the outsourcing of military action assisting groups such as IS. First Assad was the enemy, now he is an ally, there is no coherent strategy and the longer time goes on, the more apparent it becomes that we have absolutely no idea.

For the first point, I haven't been to a huge amount of muslim countries, but I have been to Morocco (apparantly according to the media, along with Tunisia is full of people who want to kill me) and nevr once did I feel threatened. The only thing that really annoyed me was their insistance (when I was taken to what i can only think was their friends rig store) that I buy a rig for around $1000 which I did not do!! I loved my time in Morocco and would go back in a heartbeat.

Second point though I struggle to see what we can do. Maybe (and this doesn't sound great) but maybe due to their beliefs that democracy may not be the best thing for the middle east. Some work better under an iron fist, maybe that was the way to leave it. Saddam however bad he was, seemed to be able to control the masses, Assad managed to do the same. I'm not saying that their way is right as they both clearly violated the rights of their people and were involved in some god awful things, but maybe walking in their and trying to impose our democratic beliefs on them is not the optimal way to run countries in the middle east.
 

Michael

Tiger Champion
Nov 30, 2004
4,375
51
Aussie Multi Culturism

On the Geelong freeway yesterday. Spotted an XB Falcon Coupe, 351. Cruised up to have a closer look. Gorgeous original condition, globe mags. In the passenger seat, a Muslim woman in the full gear. Gotta love that.
 

brigadiertiger

Tiger Champion
Dec 1, 2005
3,475
34
Michael said:
Aussie Multi Culturism

On the Geelong freeway yesterday. Spotted an XB Falcon Coupe, 351. Cruised up to have a closer look. Gorgeous original condition, globe mags. In the passenger seat, a Muslim woman in the full gear. Gotta love that.

Bloody old bomb!