Vic State Election 22 | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Vic State Election 22

Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
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Camberwell
When total project budgets as a collective, get blown out by 10 of billions of dollars ,you have to ask questions,and there has to be accountability ,and future projects being under valued by 10's of billions of dollars ,then you start getting worried.
We are talking about a state of Australia,not the country as a whole,of course we pay for the debt thats what taxes are for,and you will be paying 2cents a kilometre on any future Ev .

What regional and Rural projects are back logged in Victoria,pre election .

Yes we heard from Teflon Dan during covid ,as we did from the pm and every other premier in Australia ,lm talking about in normal circumstances.
I know the process that governments go through to approve projects and it is pretty rigorous but sometimes the bureaucrats get it wrong or some issues not anticipated occur.
Every large project is subject to a business case, consultants are appointed to design the project and then they are costed by independent quantity surveyors who apply generous contingencies usually. That process is political party agnostic , it is a public service process. The last time I am aware that it wasn’t followed was the Napthine government with the east-west link which was cancelled and that was a balls up all around.
Sometimes they get it wrong and anyone who knows anything about large scale projects knows that it can happen. Do we get it wrong too often? Maybe, but the process is very rigorous and is embedded.
 
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bengal tigers

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Apr 29, 2015
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I know the process that governments go through to approve projects and it is pretty rigorous but sometimes the bureaucrats get it wrong or some issues not anticipated occur.
Every large project is subject to a business case, consultants are appointed to design the project and then they are costed by independent quantity surveyors who apply generous contingencies usually. That process is political party agnostic , it is a public service process. The last time I am aware that it wasn’t followed was the Napthine government with the east-west link which was cancelled and that was a balls up all around.
Sometimes they get it wrong and anyone who knows anything about large scale projects knows that it can happen. Do we get it wrong too often? Maybe, but the process is very rigorous and is embedded.
Only in Victoria we have so many large blow outs,and l think there are future projects that have been announced that haven't even been properly costed yet
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
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Tell me you don't understand how preferential voting works without telling me you don't understand how preferential voting works.
I was just about to write tell me you watch sky news and read the HUN without telling me you watch Sky News and read the HUN
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
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Only in Victoria we have so many large blow outs,and l think there are future projects that have been announced that haven't even been properly costed yet
Some have and some haven’t but they would all have had preliminary cost estimates. That is very normal for election promises and is exactly the same for the Libs who have actually announced more new spending
Would like to see evidence that there are more blow outs in Victoria, I would doubt that is true and if it is it wouldn’t be by much because every state follows essentially the same process
The thing to remember is that it is the bureaucracy that cost projects and controls them and manages them not the politicians. Of course they are ultimately responsible but 99% of politicians wouldn’t have the expertise to really question cost estimates and wouldn’t know how to manage them either.
I chuckle sometimes when I hear politicians arguing about controlling projects and cost because the vast majority of them wouldn’t have a clue.
It’s mostly political speak.
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
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Camberwell
Tell me you don't understand how preferential voting works without telling me you don't understand how preferential voting works. We got the government the majority of Australians wanted.
Even most countries who have a first past the post system have a preferential system of sorts. They end up with a run off between the first and second if noone gets 50% which is their way of electing the government that the people prefer.
Our system essentially has the run off by using the preferential system on voting day.
Morrison didn’t get more votes actually. They got to that position because of the national party. The liberal party including the liberal national party of queensland and the NT version got less votes than the ALP
 
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RoarEmotion

Tiger Legend
Aug 20, 2005
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That is manipulating what I said. Of course debt has to be serviced and there is a level of debt that is too much to service but the level that the majority of governments have as a percentage of their revenue and of their GDP is much more than we have here.
You are assuming I am saying we just borrow and borrow and service the debt and that is not what I said at all.
I was addressing the myth that every government’s debt has to be paid back as if some time in the future we will be debt free is just wrong. You could count the number of economies that are debt free on one hand
We are aligned you can borrow too much so take your point without researching it that our level of debt may very well be low.

But just because a lots of governments are in debt doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the right answer either. And also what may seem very serviceable can change as circumstances change and become completely untenable and lead to austerity etc.

In a world with inflation debt shrinks. We haven’t seen what happens to an economy though when the worlds finite resources run into the infinite growth myth that drives our economy. Maybe none of us will be alive to see it but in a shrinking economy / deflation scenario debt could be crippling.
 

DavidSSS

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Dec 11, 2017
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Lots of nice throw away lines above, but no evidence presented, par for the course when you strike a right wing shill.

Debt is not a bad thing per se, I don't think any of us here would own our own houses if not for going into debt, debt which would have been multiples of our annual income. If you spend on infrastructure it is an investment. Furthermore, the recent debt the Victorian Government entered into was borrowed when interest rates were very low, and now inflation is eroding the debt. When do you propose governments borrow to build much needed infrastructure - when interest rates are high?

In any case, as many have pointed out, government debt is not the same as private debt (which is far more out of control in Australia than government debt, you want a debt problem, look at private debt in Australia). Governments don't need to pay off debt, they never have, they never will. Something about being sovereign does make governments fundamentally different.

But I particularly liked the throwaway line about how the ALP got less votes than the Libs, mainly because, nice throw away line that it is, it is also simply wrong.

2022 election first reference votes (House of Reps) were as follows:
Liberal: 3,502,713 or 23.89%
LNP Queensland: 1,172,515 or 8%
National: 528,442 or 3.6%
CLP NT: 29,664 or 0.2%
ALP: 4,776,030 or 32.58%

Now, it is a bit hard to unpack since the Tory side of politics is so split, but if you add Liberal and LNP Queensland together it is less than the ALP alone, and bear in mind that includes votes which would go to the Nationals if they were separate parties in Queensland. You can't count the National votes for the Libs they are not the same party. In any case, no party has won without preferences I suspect since the 1977 election (sorry, I was wrong, the last time a major party won more than 50% of the primary vote in a Federal Election was 1975, even that is a bit dubious since it was a coalition of the Libs and the Country Party), so to claim that winning on preference is a problem is simply rubbish.

I wouldn't say most countries don't have first past the post. In the USA they have first past the post in most states (Georgia as an exception where they do have run off elections). The UK does have first past the post and no run offs. France has run offs for President and I think members of their parliament. Preferential voting is quite rare. It is a bit all over the place, a fair number of countries have blended systems where some members of their lower house are from single member electorates and others are from a party list which is proportional rep. We have a blend too if you include the Senate.

DS
 
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Sintiger

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Aug 11, 2010
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We are aligned you can borrow too much so take your point without researching it that our level of debt may very well be low.

But just because a lots of governments are in debt doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the right answer either. And also what may seem very serviceable can change as circumstances change and become completely untenable and lead to austerity etc.

In a world with inflation debt shrinks. We haven’t seen what happens to an economy though when the worlds finite resources run into the infinite growth myth that drives our economy. Maybe none of us will be alive to see it but in a shrinking economy / deflation scenario debt could be crippling.
Yes
We can’t overburden budgets with debt servicing but debt is not always bad. Our debt as a percentage of GDP is generally about half of the UK as an example, maybe 35-40% of the USA and comparable to countries like Canada and New Zealand.
What the acceptable level is probably something many economists have written about.
 
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bengal tigers

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Apr 29, 2015
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Stop reading the Herald Sun mate, not good for the ol' noggin
The Herald sun ?.
Mate the anti Dan sentiment is everywhere,except all those in his pocket.UNIONS.
Labor at federal level may have conned people,although Bowen is doing a good job of sinking them,but people are starting to wake up to Labor in Victoria .

This is a democratic country ,not a communist one.
 
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Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
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The Herald sun ?.
Mate the anti Dan sentiment is everywhere,except all those in his pocket.UNIONS.
Labor at federal level may have conned people,although Bowen is doing a good job of sinking them,but people are starting to wake up to Labor in Victoria .

This is a democratic country ,not a communist one.
we are all still waiting to hear what crimes Andrews has committed?

as for democracy, if somehow Labor loses I am pretty sure Andrews wont be encouraging his supporters to storm parliament and threaten those inside.
 
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bengal tigers

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Apr 29, 2015
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we are all still waiting to hear what crimes Andrews has committed?

as for democracy, if somehow Labor loses I am pretty sure Andrews wont be encouraging his supporters to storm parliament and threaten those inside.
How many investigations are there into Andrews,and there will be more .
While he has got all his loyal little minions(unions) he has a lot of enemies,and more info will start coming out.

Brodders l would be more worried if Andrews wins and lm being serious,there are quite a few unhinged people out there who are anti Andrews .
 

Baloo

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Nov 8, 2005
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How many investigations are there into Andrews,and there will be more .
While he has got all his loyal little minions(unions) he has a lot of enemies,and more info will start coming out.

Brodders l would be more worried if Andrews wins and lm being serious,there are quite a few unhinged people out there who are anti Andrews .
bbqgcookers.jpg
 
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Brodders17

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Mar 21, 2008
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How many investigations are there into Andrews,and there will be more .
While he has got all his loyal little minions(unions) he has a lot of enemies,and more info will start coming out.

Brodders l would be more worried if Andrews wins and lm being serious,there are quite a few unhinged people out there who are anti Andrews .
Can you tell us one criminal investigation Andrews is facing??

You are right tho there are many unhinged people around, and most vote for the right wing nut job parties, and are encouraged but some leaders talking about turning Andrews to 'pink mist'. This parties are following Trumps lead by spreading baseless lies and advocating violence, and I'm sure some will dispute the election result when Labor wins.
 
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bengal tigers

Tiger Superstar
Apr 29, 2015
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Yes there are a lot of parties around that shouldn't have any platform ,and thats why we need to change the electoral system ,mainly the way preferences are done.
.That won't be done under Labor

As for Andrews winning ,l think you will see a massive back lash against him ,although a few on here don't care about debt ,the interest rate coming in at 3billion for the last financial year ,and expected to be at 6 billion in 3 year's time,like l said someone has to pay for it,and it's not Andrews it will be all Victorians.
Andrews is planning to turn all households electric ,all cars electric,and guess what the state will own 51percent of the sec,and yet we still don't have a alternative source of constant power.,so get ready people who have gas appliances you won't have any choice but to change,under Labor.


CFMEU control Victoria's government construction, projects, if you aren't with them you don't get a foot in any Government construction job ,or you are bullied into joining them ,the Australian building and construction watchdog was dismantled by federal Labor,so it's allowed unions more power than what they should ,and the CFMEU support Andrews ,this is all starting to sound like a communist state rather than a democratic one.
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
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Yes there are a lot of parties around that shouldn't have any platform ,and thats why we need to change the electoral system ,mainly the way preferences are done.

Outlawing parties woud seem to be more of a thing communists might do Bengals