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Regrets, I've had a few, but then again there's three cups to mention... - Former Tiger Trade Debates
- Thread starter turk-d-tiger
- Start date
Caddy ............................................................................ Higlet
Prestia ............................................................................ Lego
Lynch .............................................................................. Geezer
Somehow got a feeling our trading of players has been fairly reasonable in recent years. I'm also pretty certain that we haven't won too many flags with any of Higlet, Geezer or Lego in the side 2019 / 2020.
Being a Tiger fan, obviously all our fringe players n left overs are worthy of first round picks every time one of them comes up for trading out. Being a realist, it's obvious you simply get the best deal you possibly can, that looks after everyone involved in the deal. Even if it means taking a little bit of unders sometimes to firstly, look after the players career opportunity. Secondly ensure that the club you are dealing with at the time will consider you to be a fair n honest trader and deal happily / fairly with you at future negotiations. Unlike some clubs that seem to think they are entitled to a major win every time they come to the table.
Prestia ............................................................................ Lego
Lynch .............................................................................. Geezer
Somehow got a feeling our trading of players has been fairly reasonable in recent years. I'm also pretty certain that we haven't won too many flags with any of Higlet, Geezer or Lego in the side 2019 / 2020.
Being a Tiger fan, obviously all our fringe players n left overs are worthy of first round picks every time one of them comes up for trading out. Being a realist, it's obvious you simply get the best deal you possibly can, that looks after everyone involved in the deal. Even if it means taking a little bit of unders sometimes to firstly, look after the players career opportunity. Secondly ensure that the club you are dealing with at the time will consider you to be a fair n honest trader and deal happily / fairly with you at future negotiations. Unlike some clubs that seem to think they are entitled to a major win every time they come to the table.
I haven't missed the point at all, I get what you're trying to say. It's basically buy low sell high. Let's turn a pick 50s into a pick in the 20s or 30s.
The point you've missed though, is everyone makes trades, to get better - not worse. People look to find someone else trash to turn into their treasure.
Generally speaking in a trade, it's like buying a share on the stock market. You don't ask for a huge price because 3 years ago the shares were valued highly.
It's about what have you done for me lately.
I don't think we lost big at the time. We had a player who couldn't get a game, who had been often injured and essentially had others go past him. We've subsequently won premierships without him - he wasn't in our best 22. The other factor you're missing here is the strength of the draft and what it does to the value of draft picks.
In a good draft with lots of depth, a pick in the 40s might be equivalent to the following year where the draft pool is shallow and the talent runs out in the 20s. I've seen multiple arguments made by football managers of various clubs that they won't take pick x because it's outside the pool of talent they're interested in.
Things are much more nuanced than you're letting on to. You're asking for us to rate Butler's trade value on his 2020 form (short season, etc etc) when the trade was being made on the back of 2018 and 2019 form. For all we know, he could end up with a bunch of injuries or being replaced by Higgins this year. Will you come back in 2 years time if he's barely played a game or played a bunch but rarely hits the scoreboard and say the value was right in hindsight? I doubt it.
Saints didnt have much else to trade, maybe a future 2nd or 3rd rounder.
And they focused on 3 other trades first, only dealing for Butler at the end.
How likely the Saints went "this is all we have left to trade. If you dont like it he will come via the PSD
I get what is being said, we should have got a better return. We shoulda valued him more. It wasn't a great outcome.
But it was becausethe true outcome was the list space that gives us Biggy.
Maybe if we had kept him we couldve traded him for pick 17 and picked up Henry just to keep Leon happy!
And they focused on 3 other trades first, only dealing for Butler at the end.
How likely the Saints went "this is all we have left to trade. If you dont like it he will come via the PSD
I get what is being said, we should have got a better return. We shoulda valued him more. It wasn't a great outcome.
But it was becausethe true outcome was the list space that gives us Biggy.
Maybe if we had kept him we couldve traded him for pick 17 and picked up Henry just to keep Leon happy!
Yes, but I believe only at playing a St Kilda type of game, and quite frankly that game just doesn't deliver in big games.
Player accountability at St Kilda stops at making sure they have paid their social club bar tab at the end of each month.
I know that sounds frivolous, but Butler always had the skills and the pace to make an impact at AFL level. He played in a flag for us playing a disciplined niche role in an atypical forward line that pretty much defied standard AFL thinking on what was required to win a flag.
I have never felt that Butler fell out of best 22 contention due to injury or other players going past him skill wise. The team around him subtly evolved and he basically couldn't adapt quickly enough. He wasn't really a one trick pony though, it was just that the team moved on and what Butts brought to the table didn't seem to fit anymore.
There is no doubt that the club would have felt we had the players to cover Butts when we let him go. We clearly didn't have to trade him if we didn't want to, and I think at the end of the day he probably would have been happy to stay for another year or two.
If he had stayed, he may have been able to recover his spot as best 22. But the club did have other options that I guess they felt were going to help us move further forward, I think evidenced now by the fact we have won two more flags since. Don't forget that Balmey came out and suggested that Dan should look at other options.
And in the end St Kilda was the only suitor after Carlton and Hawthorn cooled on him. So I don't think anyone can say we didn't get unders for him in terms of the draft pick, but I think that, as harsh as it seems, that was never seen as the payoff for the trade by Richmond. Opening up an opportunity for someone else on our list was.
I have no clear evidence to support this, but I have in recent times felt that Butler moving on opened the spot for Liam Baker. Baker's rise seemed to follow the trajectory of Butler's decline, if you could call it that. Maybe I just feel this way because Baker took over Butler's No.7 when Dan left.
Which brings me back to the St Kilda bit. Butts had a great year last year playing in a team that really suited his game, and gave him the freedom to play that way week in week out. But Butler will not help them get to a flag because I just don't see the discipline in them, and haven't for a long time (the possible exception being during Ross Lyon's coaching tenure there).
St Kilda obviously do have their moments, don't get me wrong, but I think there is a reason they always seems to stumble in the really big games. And it comes down to a lack of accountability for the opposition from players in crucial moments. They are great front runners when things are going well, but when players need to step up, they seem to always lack enough players to do so. They free wheel with the best of them, but when a change of gears is required, they lack the teeth to grind.
So the bottom line for me is that I just can't see Butts winning a flag at St Kilda, but I can see him looking like a superstar for them and in turn making them look like a much better team.
So drag me into a thread I haven't even posted on, smartarse. Maybe you could at least get your years right for a start if you're so clever.
Butler , higgins , Markov could all go really well at their new clubs because they are good players ,which could lead to, why did we let them go ? but in our current scenario with depth coming out of our ears, we just cant keep them all,
Not stressed when we are going so well , although it would be a different story if we werent
Onwards and upwards
Not stressed when we are going so well , although it would be a different story if we werent
Onwards and upwards
Butler has surprised me at the Saints but I still reckon there is some rewriting of history here.
He was dropped in 2019 and was replaced by Shai Bolton in that team and we know how that went. He played vfl for most of the year and was frankly ordinary and never really looked like getting back in. We probably got unders but let’s see how Biggie goes, ironically an ex Saints academy player.
I still believe he is a bit of a one trick pony, out the back pace.
Love to see ex tigers do well, except when they play us.
He was dropped in 2019 and was replaced by Shai Bolton in that team and we know how that went. He played vfl for most of the year and was frankly ordinary and never really looked like getting back in. We probably got unders but let’s see how Biggie goes, ironically an ex Saints academy player.
I still believe he is a bit of a one trick pony, out the back pace.
Love to see ex tigers do well, except when they play us.
Player accountability at St Kilda stops at making sure they have paid their social club bar tab at the end of each month.
Let the debate rage.
Higgins had 24 disposals and kicked 1.3 last night.
Should have got a top 10 draft pick for him.
Higgins had 24 disposals and kicked 1.3 last night.
Should have got a top 10 draft pick for him.
We got karma's compensation.
We got bent over with the Bulter trade, but got triple compensation with getting a first rounder for Higgins.
Too many deficiencies.
Erratic kic
Not fast for a small and relies on fluke plays.
Sinclair lonie both played well last night, with Kent and Jones to come back in.
Little Higgins dream of playing at moorabbin might come true with the VFL.
We got bent over with the Bulter trade, but got triple compensation with getting a first rounder for Higgins.
Too many deficiencies.
Erratic kic
Not fast for a small and relies on fluke plays.
Sinclair lonie both played well last night, with Kent and Jones to come back in.
Little Higgins dream of playing at moorabbin might come true with the VFL.
I wasn’t sad when Butler left as he wasn’t best 22 and I am glad he is doing well at the saints also - it just shows the depth of our squad.
And now we have his future replacement - jr which makes me really excited
And now we have his future replacement - jr which makes me really excited
I'm still not sure you're getting me.
I'm not that interested in the fact he 'couldn't get a game' or that others had gone past him. You've made that argument before, as have many others, but, if that's where your focus lies, it's at odds with the principle of trading for your own club's betterment. With an attitude like the one you describe, you'd be struggling to ever do a fair-value deal.
Think about Collingwood this past trade period. It was an open secret they were in salary cap strife. They lost their leverage and, arguably, lost badly at the trade table. When Balmey, God bless him, made it public that Butler was free to explore offers, he lost his leverage. I don't like that and, if you're looking for the nub of my position, that is it. We must never trade quality players for unders again. It's a sign we're on good terms with ourselves. In a highly competitive, equalised AFL, we should be wary of giving any sucker an even break. Is it the only consideration? Of course not. Trading and lists are complex. But, in this instance, we failed on this measure.
And I'm most certainly not 'asking for us to rate Butler's trade value on his 2020 form'. If I did, there'd actually be no argument because pick 56 for an AA squad member, top 10 Coleman finish and podium position in a B&F is a ridiculous proposition!
Go back to the Rance and Butler threads and you'll see there were plenty of us whose eyebrows were raised by the trade at the time.
That said, the fact Butler franked those opinions in 2020 is why this discussion has to be revisited.
Huddo in the call last night:
'Butler picking up from where he left off last year; second in the best and fairest, part of the All Australian extended squad, 63% goal accuracy, as well ... all great feats from the man they picked up from Richmond for a bargain basement price.'
Will I be back in 2 years' time if he fails from this point forward? Well, I can't change the opinion I had in 2019 when I said we gave him away too cheaply. I stand by it. The kid is class. I think it's more likely you'll be back here in 2 years' time saying we stuffed this one up. Let's see!
