General Trade Discussion 2022 | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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General Trade Discussion 2022

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
17,850
21,180
But whats the alternative? It seems reasonable to have some flexibility - rather than expecting clubs to pay the exact full salary cap limit. So if there's to be a bit of tolerance - is 5% the correct number- -or are you suggesting a smaller or bigger number?

Personally I think 95% is too high especially for rebuilding clubs.

TPP is about $14m, 5% underspend is circa $700k, 10% is therefore $1.4m.

Bearing in mind within the cap I'd expect the top 10 players of a top team to probably take up around 40% of the cap. I've broken it out below.

Top 10 - 10 players = $5.6m, average $560k
1st / 2nd year players - 6 players = $600k, average $100k
Mid level players = 26 players = $7.8m, average $300k

I'd suspect those lower level teams have similar numbers in the remaining list, just their top 10 won't be at that level.

I've balanced it the other way as an example.

So based on 95% of the cap.
1st / 2nd year players - 10 players = $1.0m, average $100k
Mid level players = 26 players = $7.8m, average $300k
Remaining (top players) = 6 players = $4.5m, average $750k

Based on 90% of the cap.
1st / 2nd year players - 10 players = $1.0m, average $100k
Mid level players = 26 players = $7.8m, average $300k
Remaining (top players) = 6 players = $3.8m, average $633k

The biggest issue with those at 95% of the cap is they will have more younger players earning rookie contracts, and they have way too much of the cap to allocate out, hence that huge average of $750k if you leave it all to your big hitters. Most likely, a lot of that increase probably doesn't even fall into that bucket, but will actually fall onto those mid range players so thats where we get these average players on ridiculous money.

The other way to address this would be to have a more flexible list size. For example, at the minute its quite rigid. You are allowed 42 on the list (between 36 and 38 on the main list) and between 4 and 6 rookies all adding upto 42. What if that 42 wasn't so rigid. Maybe its 42-47. 36 to 40 on the main list and between 4 and 11 on the rookie list. Those rookies would then most likely add to that middle range. So lets look at the 95% cap again.

1st / 2nd year players - 15 players = $1.5m, average $100k
Mid level players = 26 players = $7.8m, average $300k
Remaining (top players) = 6 players = $4.0m, average $666k

Still IMO a bit on the high side. I like the increase in list size AND a decline to min spend of 90%.

1st / 2nd year players - 15 players = $1.5m, average $100k
Mid level players = 26 players = $7.8m, average $300k
Remaining (top players) = 6 players = $3.3m, average $550k

I think providing more flexibility to clubs should provide enough flexibility to decide at what level you think a player deserves to be paid. It gives clubs like West Coast / Hawthorn for example the scope to really ramp down the spend per player, but also add rookies that might have some issues, and probably therefore increases the talent pool available as you have more talent being trained through the AFL system.
 
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Tenacious

Tiger Legend
May 19, 2008
5,695
4,074
Didn't say I had an answer... :)

Probably got to build some form of matrix based on a playing list's:
- years of experience
- Games played
- Some other relevant stat's

That comes up to a cumulative #. You then set ranges of salary caps so a young and in-experienced list enables the club/list manager to steadily grow the salaries as experience increases.

That's an example model that could be used. You'd probably have to have some controls that clubs can only be below 95% for 4 consecutive years, forcing them to either trade in experienced players or retaining and building a list.

It's how IT guys like me do overall Risk ranking so the options on matrices exist.

And as above getting the AFLPA to sign off on this would be hard but I would see it as "doable". I am an optimist.
Dunno
Reckon I'm more comfortable with my limited understanding of the current system than trying to envisage the complications and intricacies of your "doable" alternative.
I'm an ignoramus.
 
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turk-d-tiger

Welcome to Richmond Football Club - Daniel Rioli
Dec 1, 2007
5,221
4,466
melbourne
Min spend should be 90% with 10% bankable for 5 years

List sizes should be 42+2 Cat B rookies and no rookie list
Vet discount should be reintroduced for players over 30 with a 20% discount on the salary being outside the cap
this would stop clubs like Noth / Hawks gutting out the list from older players to bottom out and beg for hand outs
 
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jb03

Tiger Legend
Jan 28, 2004
33,856
12,108
Melbourne
How does Hawthorn get anywhere near 95% cap next year with their list. Amon must be on $1.5 mill per season.
 

Leysy Days

Tiger Legend
Feb 26, 2004
21,331
7,933
true, but the players association will never agree to clubs paying less than 95%.
what those clubs should be doing is "forward-ending" contracts. why the Suns had to back end Bowes is mind boggling- they must have been paying close to the cap- but also shows the ongoing issue the Suns and Giants will have. they have to pay more to retain players, or they will leave. and that is not going to change in the near future.

Biggest problem for expansion clubs is having to overpay to keep high draft picks after their initial two years.

Other clubs come circling with the go home factor, so they either need to let them go - which GC did with Rankine.

Or match (or in most cases better) to keep them i.e. Lukosius - now on estimated $600K per year...

Tough cycle.
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
18,202
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Camberwell
Melbournes weakness is forward, so they bring in another ruck (they've never had a problem winning clearances).
The recruitment of Grundy by Melbourne is the strange one to me. They have the best ruck and probably the best on ball mix in the AFL and no decent key forwards and they spend big on a ruck, I don't get it
The only thing I can think of is that they think Grundy and Gawn can play as key forwards when not on the ball.
 
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spook

Kick the f*ckin' goal
Jun 18, 2007
21,912
26,418
Melbourne
Biggest problem for expansion clubs is having to overpay to keep high draft picks after their initial two years.

Other clubs come circling with the go home factor, so they either need to let them go - which GC did with Rankine.

Or match (or in most cases better) to keep them i.e. Lukosius - now on estimated $600K per year...

Tough cycle.
They should have let Lukosious go. Jack Watts Mk II, except Watts could hit targets.
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
18,202
17,598
Camberwell
Biggest problem for expansion clubs is having to overpay to keep high draft picks after their initial two years.

Other clubs come circling with the go home factor, so they either need to let them go - which GC did with Rankine.

Or match (or in most cases better) to keep them i.e. Lukosius - now on estimated $600K per year...

Tough cycle.
In the end that is how we got Taranto and hopper.
 
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bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
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The recruitment of Grundy by Melbourne is the strange one to me. They have the best ruck and probably the best on ball mix in the AFL and no decent key forwards and they spend big on a ruck, I don't get it
The only thing I can think of is that they think Grundy and Gawn can play as key forwards when not on the ball.
If the bench increases to 5 it will be a masterstroke, nothing wrong with 2 gun rucks, Grundy spent a fair bit of time forward in 2021.
 

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
Biggest problem for expansion clubs is having to overpay to keep high draft picks after their initial two years.

Other clubs come circling with the go home factor, so they either need to let them go - which GC did with Rankine.

Or match (or in most cases better) to keep them i.e. Lukosius - now on estimated $600K per year...

Tough cycle.

And then they are coping the reverse malaka where the kids are already set financially much younger so they are happy to take less to come back to Melbourne when they hit the third deal.

The AFL is going to have to do something, either make the initial contracts longer or put a salary cap penalty on them of say 10% of their wage.
 

eddazol

Tiger Superstar
Sep 22, 2014
1,973
2,011
The recruitment of Grundy by Melbourne is the strange one to me. They have the best ruck and probably the best on ball mix in the AFL and no decent key forwards and they spend big on a ruck, I don't get it
The only thing I can think of is that they think Grundy and Gawn can play as key forwards when not on the ball.
Gawn is a terrible kick for goal.
 

bullus_hit

Whatchu talkin about Jack?
Apr 3, 2006
15,227
5,668
So Mitchell was worth 41 & 50 with Hawthorn paying part of his contract, Grundy was worth pick 27 with 300k being paid by Collingwood. Decent trading for those with a Moneyball approach.
 
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St Kevin

Tiger Legend
Apr 1, 2014
7,178
6,136
And then they are coping the reverse malaka where the kids are already set financially much younger so they are happy to take less to come back to Melbourne when they hit the third deal.

The AFL is going to have to do something, either make the initial contracts longer or put a salary cap penalty on them of say 10% of their wage.

Had no idea you were Greek TBR. :mhihi
 
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Bullarto Tiger

Tiger Legend
Mar 17, 2012
10,015
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Dunno
Reckon I'm more comfortable with my limited understanding of the current system than trying to envisage the complications and intricacies of your "doable" alternative.
I'm an ignoramus.
We're in the same club, Tenacious
I find it a blessing at times!
 
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mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
17,850
21,180
I don’t see it. Melbourne have no problem with clearances they just couldn’t score.
Time will tell

Agree. Gawn kicked 13 and Jackson 11 in 22. I don't think that a Gawn / Grundy pairing will score much more than that.

The problem that Melbourne have, is the game is becoming quicker, and the teams at the top are becoming more potent in attack. They rely on their defence, because they struggle to score and I don't see anything that have done that will change that.

Against the top 8 in 2021 when they won the flag, Melbourne went 8 and 2. Last year it was 5 and 6. Whilst they increased their scoring marginally (4), they conceded a lot more, 9 more points against, as teams increased their scoring potency.

I don't see how Melbourne have actually improved their list, this year. They are treading water at best.
 
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