Global Warming | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Global Warming

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,725
18,385
Melbourne
Compostable plastic bags? How about no plastic bags. I know this is not easy and I need to find a good way to buy meat without plastic bags, but, I buy fruit and veg at the market and it all goes loose in a basket. I've been doing this for years and it is quite easy. We do compost and, yes, the rats and mice love it, and the cats are too slack to do anything about it. But compost is excellent, helps our garden and improves the soil. We just have a 3 bin setup which means I don't need to worry about the amount of time I leave it. Important to make sure it is well ventilated to compost aerobically.

As for climate change, we definitely need more solar panels with my partner working from home. we just use more power.

DS
 

Scoop

Tiger Legend
Dec 8, 2004
25,029
14,305
Compostable plastic bags? How about no plastic bags. I know this is not easy and I need to find a good way to buy meat without plastic bags, but, I buy fruit and veg at the market and it all goes loose in a basket. I've been doing this for years and it is quite easy. We do compost and, yes, the rats and mice love it, and the cats are too slack to do anything about it. But compost is excellent, helps our garden and improves the soil. We just have a 3 bin setup which means I don't need to worry about the amount of time I leave it. Important to make sure it is well ventilated to compost aerobically.

As for climate change, we definitely need more solar panels with my partner working from home. we just use more power.

DS
You will always need some type of plastics in food packaging, compostable is the way forward, especially after the red cycle fallout.
 
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tigertim

something funny is written here
Mar 6, 2004
30,144
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Compostable plastic bags? How about no plastic bags. I know this is not easy and I need to find a good way to buy meat without plastic bags, but, I buy fruit and veg at the market and it all goes loose in a basket. I've been doing this for years and it is quite easy. We do compost and, yes, the rats and mice love it, and the cats are too slack to do anything about it. But compost is excellent, helps our garden and improves the soil. We just have a 3 bin setup which means I don't need to worry about the amount of time I leave it. Important to make sure it is well ventilated to compost aerobically.

As for climate change, we definitely need more solar panels with my partner working from home. we just use more power.

DS
Oddly my chickens don’t really like much of the food scraps so I feed them to the pig, she loves them. So I advocate every house should have a pig! And chickens.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
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One issue with plastics recycling is that poorer countries just don't have the infrastructure to collect and recycle plastics at a volume that makes a difference.
 

Baloo

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Nov 8, 2005
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The sceptics use that same argument for emissions reduction.
Maybe, but that doesn't mean it's a *smile* argument. Things are slowly changing with the investment vehicles to start building the infra in poorer countries now running. Plenty of green funds that invest in recycling infrastructure startups in poorer countries to get them started. There's also a similar push from these funds to harvest and recycle plastics found in the ocean.

Cynics may call these investment vehicles green washing, and while large companies no doubt use it for that reason, the funds made available do directly go to funding and building a sustainable grass roots industry to start cleaning up the problem.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,725
18,385
Melbourne
You will always need some type of plastics in food packaging, compostable is the way forward, especially after the red cycle fallout.

Tell that to Rwanda, they banned plastic bags and they are really strict about it. My daughter went there on a uni trip a few years ago and everyone was warned to get rid of any plastic bags in their luggage.

If a poor, landlocked, country like Rwanda can do it I don't see why we can't.

DS
 

Scoop

Tiger Legend
Dec 8, 2004
25,029
14,305
Tell that to Rwanda, they banned plastic bags and they are really strict about it. My daughter went there on a uni trip a few years ago and everyone was warned to get rid of any plastic bags in their luggage.

If a poor, landlocked, country like Rwanda can do it I don't see why we can't.

DS
Easy to ban anything in a country that sacrifices basic human rights. Strawman argument.

No western country can operate without plastics, you can't ban them, argument is around innovation, what can be done to replace substrates.

Look at South Australia, they have a booming green industry. So far ahead of every state.
 

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,842
12,052
Tell that to Rwanda, they banned plastic bags and they are really strict about it. My daughter went there on a uni trip a few years ago and everyone was warned to get rid of any plastic bags in their luggage.

If a poor, landlocked, country like Rwanda can do it I don't see why we can't.

DS
Rwanda still uses some plastic-

Exceptions include plastic bags used in the packaging of meat, chicken, fish and milled cassava leaves, so they can easily be refrigerated.

Plastic will always be used, some sort of recycling is vital, but individuals also need to take easy steps to reduce use- re-usable shopping bags and F&V bags are 2 easy examples.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,725
18,385
Melbourne
Easy to ban anything in a country that sacrifices basic human rights. Strawman argument.

No western country can operate without plastics, you can't ban them, argument is around innovation, what can be done to replace substrates.

Look at South Australia, they have a booming green industry. So far ahead of every state.

You need to look up straw man argument, you could cite the argument as a country which is not comparable but straw man, no.

You are correct, we can't live without plastics, just about any computer would be the size of a room without plastics, so wasting the limited amount of oil needed to make plastics on single use bags seems short sighted and stupid to me, your opinion may differ.

DS
 

TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
25,876
11,876
Humanity is a plague.
Yep, we sure doin a good job of *smile* things up.
It's all that God blokes fault, bloody creatin Adam n Eve n then tellin them to go forth n multiply. Idjits took him seriously n now there's 8 billion of us rummaging around the place n makin a mess.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,169
21,946
It was obvious from the get go that this was just another element of the lie that is plastic recycling. There's only so many park benches they can make.
I don't necessarily agree that plastics recycling is a lie, but the way we have set about it do it is a lie.

Unless we have a large enough market to turn these products into, then that makes it a lie. As you allude, thats the issue with RedCycle, the way they recycle and the products they turn plastic into, is a small market and it sounds as if they have exhausted much of that marketplace.

If the world was to become serious on plastics recycling, then thats where change can be made. There are numerous examples, where scientists have proven that plastics (all types) can be recycled into various products such as chemicals, crude oil, naptha, diesel fuel etc. These are products that all have large enough markets where they could make it work BUT they are very capital intensive industries. Grants / funding from governments, higher input credits (via making tipping fees very high to deter as much making it to landfill) are all things that should be being explored to encourage companies to get involved with this industry. Its an enormous industry and part of the solution of turning plastics into a fuel cycle economy instead of the one way economy that we have right now.
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,169
21,946
Compostable plastic bags? How about no plastic bags. I know this is not easy and I need to find a good way to buy meat without plastic bags, but, I buy fruit and veg at the market and it all goes loose in a basket. I've been doing this for years and it is quite easy. We do compost and, yes, the rats and mice love it, and the cats are too slack to do anything about it. But compost is excellent, helps our garden and improves the soil. We just have a 3 bin setup which means I don't need to worry about the amount of time I leave it. Important to make sure it is well ventilated to compost aerobically.

As for climate change, we definitely need more solar panels with my partner working from home. we just use more power.

DS

Greater investment in hessian bags is the way to go. We've come full cycle and looks like we got it right at the start. Most carrier type bags 60-70 years ago would have been made of hessian or paper, we moved away from them as "plastic was stronger" than those paper bags, but hessian is the way to go IMO. Use them until they are too damaged to use anymore, then throw them in your garden waste bin, and the cycle begins again. Use compost to grow more jute or cotton and the cycle is complete.

Full cycle economics needs to be where COP27 targets everyone as full cycle economics is where we will make change from.
 
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Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
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Grants / funding from governments, higher input credits (via making tipping fees very high to deter as much making it to landfill) are all things that should be being explored to encourage companies to get involved with this industry. Its an enormous industry and part of the solution of turning plastics into a fuel cycle economy instead of the one way economy that we have right now.
It's happening. There are a number of funds that are specialising in investing/seeding plastics recycling in less develped countries where they have the bigger problems trying to recycle. Here's one that I know of that concentrates on plastics in the ocean.

Circulate Captital
 

mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,169
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It's happening. There are a number of funds that are specialising in investing/seeding plastics recycling in less develped countries where they have the bigger problems trying to recycle. Here's one that I know of that concentrates on plastics in the ocean.

Circulate Captital
There's 2 sides to this. 1 is capital and there has been a significant increase in the amount of capital moving into ESG funds. This is great as it increases capital available to these projects.

The problem is though in cost. New technology will always create a more expensive product and whilst some businesses will pay a small premium for more energy sustaining goods, others won't, but this premium is not exhaustive. For example, most companies would probably pay a 10-15% premium for a product that they can state saves them emissions as emissions are so important right not from shareholders to other stakeholders, but much more than that and the takeup will be small and again we will be back to the original issue of a product without an end user market which again will break the cycle. You'd have to sell at a massive loss to even try and penetrate the market.

Some of this specifically around recycling, should be driven by governments and councils. As I mentioned, I think tipping fees should be vastly increased. $170 or something like that in Melbourne per tonne is way too cheap. Increase it to $1500, and this is where I mention input credits. If a company would be paying circa $1650 ($1500 per tonne tipping fees and $150 for the driver) then they will look at other options. If a recycling company offers them to be able to drop it off to them for $1400 then the company gets a saving of $250 / tonne and will likely follow that. That $1400 input credit is huge as it can dramatically reduce the cost of producing whatever goods you do with the recycled plastics, whether its another plastic product / fuel etc. At the moment, that input credit might only be $50-$150 which just isn't enough to lower their cost base and make their saleable product profitable. No profitable business plan, no seed funding is the big problem.

There are others too, where you are told technology is too new and therefore will be scrapped. I was horrified when we looked to replace some of our smaller forklifts in NZ at the prices we were offered. The electric vehicles were priced at double the lease rate of the gas forkifts (we are talking well over $1,000 / month more expensive), whats more we were told that the technology was so new, that they don't know how it will operate and if it makes it to 5 years they will just scrap it at the end of the 5 year lease period (scrapping an electric vehicle after 5 years compared to 15-20 for a gas one is hardly making the case for being environmentally friendly). Had that premium price being 10%-15%, I probably could have made the business case to get them because we are lowering emissions / improving air quality in warehouses etc but at double its very difficult to sell. What horrifies me more though, is I worked for a forklift company 20 years ago and we sold diesel, gas AND electric forklifts back then, electric were sold at a small premium over gas. How we get 20 years down the line and electric costs have increased that much astounds me. It sounds more like price gouging than genuine cost increases, which is a massive issue in the market. Like I said 10-15%, and we probably go with the green option, double the price and scrapping after 5 years hardly sells the case for me.

We need to create profitable end user markets for these products, some of that is creating a market, some of that is normalising the cost structure of the product and governments need to play their part here to encourage councils / companies to deter sending "waste" to landfill and actually use this "waste" not as waste but a supplied input into another production process. We have tested the market theory which doesn't work, we need governments to get involved and push towards moving this forward much quicker, and that can only be through pricing / cost initiatives and the 1st one of those is increasing landfill tipping fees. Whats more, I'd love councils to start weighing our bins, and moving household waste collection costs more to a user pays, rather than a 1 price fits all model.
 

Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
17,842
12,052
Compostable plastic bags? How about no plastic bags. I know this is not easy and I need to find a good way to buy meat without plastic bags,
One could argue not buying meat would be as a good for the environment as not using plastic bags- at least on the global warming thread.
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,178
19,050
There's 2 sides to this. 1 is capital and there has been a significant increase in the amount of capital moving into ESG funds. This is great as it increases capital available to these projects.

The problem is though in cost. New technology will always create a more expensive product and whilst some businesses will pay a small premium for more energy sustaining goods, others won't, but this premium is not exhaustive.

New technology gets cheaper as it's adopted. The race to create better, cheaper technology is always on as it has more chance of being the standard. But it's just not new technology. The fund I mentioned concentrates on grass roots industries that leverage a lot on the low cost of manual labour in poorer countries. As these industries grow and revenue comes in, they can start expanding with technology.

There is no perfect solution. Plastics are integral to our modern living and until an alternate light weight, strong, cheap alternatives are found, we need to do what we can in terms of recycling.

Coke, which gets a lot of *smile*, is constantly trying to manufacture packaging that reduces the plastics load. Cardboard containers were tried in Scandinavia but the consumer just didn't buy. They now have refillable containers in Sth America where you bring your Coke bottle back to the store and get it refilled. Thailand and Myanmar have just released 100% recycled PET bottles. Going back to single use glass isn't the answer because the impact of making that much glass isn't good for the environment either. Ultimately, it's down to what the consumer will buy and the consumer loves the strong, lightweight plastic bottle. We still *smile* and complain about having to pay for plastic bags at the Super Market. The first time we have a paper bag break open because a frozen or cold item makes the bag wet we'll go back to plastics.

There is no easy answer, but the genuine effort to reduce plastics is the amongst most industries, especially those big enough to cop reputational risk if they don't make a genuine effort. But it's the consumer that needs to change their habits to really make a difference. Looking at my WFH desk now and all I see is a mass of plastic products. I wonder if anyone sells a wooden keyboard or mouse...
 
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Brodders17

Tiger Legend
Mar 21, 2008
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12,052
New technology gets cheaper as it's adopted. The race to create better, cheaper technology is always on as it has more chance of being the standard. But it's just not new technology. The fund I mentioned concentrates on grass roots industries that leverage a lot on the low cost of manual labour in poorer countries. As these industries grow and revenue comes in, they can start expanding with technology.

There is no perfect solution. Plastics are integral to our modern living and until an alternate light weight, strong, cheap alternatives are found, we need to do what we can in terms of recycling.

Coke, which gets a lot of *smile*, is constantly trying to manufacture packaging that reduces the plastics load. Cardboard containers were tried in Scandinavia but the consumer just didn't buy. They now have refillable containers in Sth America where you bring your Coke bottle back to the store and get it refilled. Thailand and Myanmar have just released 100% recycled PET bottles. Going back to single use glass isn't the answer because the impact of making that much glass isn't good for the environment either. Ultimately, it's down to what the consumer will buy and the consumer loves the strong, lightweight plastic bottle. We still *smile* and complain about having to pay for plastic bags at the Super Market. The first time we have a paper bag break open because a frozen or cold item makes the bag wet we'll go back to plastics.

There is no easy answer, but the genuine effort to reduce plastics is the amongst most industries, especially those big enough to cop reputational risk if they don't make a genuine effort. But it's the consumer that needs to change their habits to really make a difference. Looking at my WFH desk now and all I see is a mass of plastic products. I wonder if anyone sells a wooden keyboard or mouse...
It is amazing that in places like India, soft drink bottles etc can be re-used (on a large scale) but not in the "western world". some places re-use milk bottles, but the general population wont go through the inconvenience to do it.
perhaps, like coffee cups and shopping bags, that is a relatively easy next step.
 
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mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
18,169
21,946
New technology gets cheaper as it's adopted. The race to create better, cheaper technology is always on as it has more chance of being the standard. But it's just not new technology. The fund I mentioned concentrates on grass roots industries that leverage a lot on the low cost of manual labour in poorer countries. As these industries grow and revenue comes in, they can start expanding with technology.

There is no perfect solution. Plastics are integral to our modern living and until an alternate light weight, strong, cheap alternatives are found, we need to do what we can in terms of recycling.

Coke, which gets a lot of *smile*, is constantly trying to manufacture packaging that reduces the plastics load. Cardboard containers were tried in Scandinavia but the consumer just didn't buy. They now have refillable containers in Sth America where you bring your Coke bottle back to the store and get it refilled. Thailand and Myanmar have just released 100% recycled PET bottles. Going back to single use glass isn't the answer because the impact of making that much glass isn't good for the environment either. Ultimately, it's down to what the consumer will buy and the consumer loves the strong, lightweight plastic bottle. We still *smile* and complain about having to pay for plastic bags at the Super Market. The first time we have a paper bag break open because a frozen or cold item makes the bag wet we'll go back to plastics.

There is no easy answer, but the genuine effort to reduce plastics is the amongst most industries, especially those big enough to cop reputational risk if they don't make a genuine effort. But it's the consumer that needs to change their habits to really make a difference. Looking at my WFH desk now and all I see is a mass of plastic products. I wonder if anyone sells a wooden keyboard or mouse...

Agree on coke. They get unfairly bashed by people, they are trying. They are exploring various options. Coke being the largest drinks manufacturer will always be at the forefront of Greenpeaces agenda, even if their recycling content etc is much higher than smaller companies.

I was reading an article by an engineer who was claiming that pyrolysis isn't a solution to our plastics problem, the reason being, is that any energy / product generated would be less than the energy input. In a perfect world I understand his concern, but when asked by someone about what the solution is, his response was, "we need to create a more recyclable product in the 1st instance and remove the uses of single use plastics". Simply put (and I don't mean to be derogatory to any green crusaders here) but this is the type of stuff that sounds great and is the perfect scenario but also why the "green industry" is actually a roadblock to moving towards a more green future.

The issue with organisations like Greenpeace etc, is that they refuse to accept that transitional technology / energy is a required process to go through to get to the green future that we want.

Take a look at Shell, they said they are moving towards producing more green technology. They also said they were going to spend capex on developing new oil fields. They get bagged over it. The Shell CEO said that they need to generate cashflows in order to proceed towards greener technology (as that green energy doesn't produce the cash right now to fund the capital of the move to green technology. For energy companies, gas etc needs to be the technology that we move towards in the short term, to ensure we don't have blackouts, but also to finance the move to large scale green technologies.

Its the same thing with plastics. Yes a circular economy whereby every plastic product produced can be re-used as another product it had completed its use in an infinite cycle is clearly our optimum solution, but if thats our only goal then we will fail, at least in the short to medium term. It also doesn't address the extent of plastics that we are wasting every year and the legacy plastics that sits in our environment. Its going to biodegrade and give off emissions regardless over a long time, we might as well use that to cycle back into our economy as fuel etc through this transitional phase.

Its a similar thing with vehicles. People say, lets just move to electric cars, get all these petrol ones off the road. Sure, but global vehicle production is about 4-5% of the global volume of cars on the road, so this will take 20-25 years even if all production was immediately switched to EV. Its the pipedream these environmentalists sell you, but by not accepting that we cannot just click our fingers and fix the issue and that we need transitional power / transitional technologies then they are actually part of the issue and not the solution IMO.