Australia Day - 26th January?

[AngryAnt]

The ancient Jews had a daily calendar based on the moon. Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the northern spring equinox. That is why it does not have a set date. Originally it matched the date of the Passover (which is celebrated on Nisan 15). But this was changed in 325AD by the council of Nicaea so now they sometimes occur at a different time.

With Christmas there are various opinions and theories as to why it is celebrated on 25th December but the date is not random.

Most of those theories are to do with the fact that ancient pagan ceremonies relating to the Roman god Saturn and the Persian god Mithra happened at that time of year, the tradition is thought to have started in Rome around 350AD. This to me demonstrates both the ahistoricity of religion and the fact that all traditions start somewhere.

 

[Brodders17]

Most of those theories are to do with the fact that ancient pagan ceremonies relating to the Roman god Saturn and the Persian god Mithra happened at that time of year, the tradition is thought to have started in Rome around 350AD. This to me demonstrates both the ahistoricity of religion and the fact that all traditions start somewhere.

Scholars suggest Christians appropriated the dates of pagan festivals to help in their efforts to convert people, Djevv appears to be suggesting they chose significant days on the Jewish calendar. Either way it appears they picked days to make the most people happy, or were convenient, not to do with events they purport to celebrate. Maybe we could do the same.

 

[Djevv]

Most of those theories are to do with the fact that ancient pagan ceremonies relating to the Roman god Saturn and the Persian god Mithra happened at that time of year, the tradition is thought to have started in Rome around 350AD. This to me demonstrates both the ahistoricity of religion and the fact that all traditions start somewhere.

That’s one of the theories. It demonstrates whatever you want depending on whether you believe it or not. According to this article the date was established by a tradition and was not set by the church (it mentions your idea as well). I’ve also read defenses based on scripture. Anyway something that has a tradition going back nearly 2 Millenia can hardly be described as random.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/12/24/why-is-christmas-on-dec-25-it-wasnt-always/%3foutputType=amp

 

[Djevv]

Scholars suggest Christians appropriated the dates of pagan festivals to help in their efforts to convert people, Djevv appears to be suggesting they chose significant days on the Jewish calendar. Either way it appears they picked days to make the most people happy, or were convenient, not to do with events they purport to celebrate. Maybe we could do the same.

Easter coincides with the Passover because that is when he was crucified. It wasn’t a random date designed ‘to make people happy’.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Omfg all dates are arbitrary. They're randomly chosen points in the cycles of the sun and the moon.

Let's not pretend there's some nationally important, spiritually relevant, intrinsic value to any date.

It's a chance to get pissed, not go to work, have a barbie and not give a *smile* like an Australian should.

Who cares what date its on? If it's upsetting people, change it. Celebrate it on the 27th. Celebrate it on may 8th.

Celebrate it on the the 5th Tuesday of every February. Who gives a *smile*?

To be honest, I don't even care if they don't change it. The are bigger issues with indigenous welfare than the date of Australia day.

 

[AngryAnt]

That’s one of the theories. It demonstrates whatever you want depending on whether you believe it or not. According to this article the date was established by a tradition and was not set by the church (it mentions your idea as well). I’ve also read defenses based on scripture. Anyway something that has a tradition going back nearly 2 Millenia can hardly be described as random.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2014/12/24/why-is-christmas-on-dec-25-it-wasnt-always/%3foutputType=amp

Definitely not random. A marketing exercise.

"Defenses based on scripture" is code for after the fact apologetics.

Your last point doesn't scan. All traditions start somewhere and adding 2000 years to a random date doesn't make the origin any less random.

 

[tigerdell]

Omfg all dates are arbitrary. They're randomly chosen points in the cycles of the sun and the moon.

Let's not pretend there's some nationally important, spiritually relevant, intrinsic value to any date.

It's a chance to get pissed, not go to work, have a barbie and not give a *smile* like an Australian should.

Who cares what date its on? If it's upsetting people, change it. Celebrate it on the 27th. Celebrate it on may 8th.

Celebrate it on the the 5th Tuesday of every February. Who gives a *smile*?

To be honest, I don't even care if they don't change it. The are bigger issues with indigenous welfare than the date of Australia day.

It is more than a date though.
A reinforcement that Australia only started in 1788, that anything previous doesnt count.

Its symbolic, and like all symbols some people care about them and others dont. Both are right.
But its no excuse to do nothing when a significant number of Australians are clearly and deliberately sidelined from their Australian identity

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

But its no excuse to do nothing when a significant number of Australians are clearly and deliberately sidelined from their Australian identity

Do they give a fig about their "Australian identity" or do they just want to tear the occasion down?

 

[tigerdell]

This is not me putting words in others mouths. David S said he supported Stan Grant’s position of ‘you don’t get a national day until you deserve one’.

Anyway ‘makes me think’ clearly tells you it’s an inference. If you want the date changed and you think any old date is acceptable then you clearly don’t think much of the nation so you probably don’t care about whether there is a national date or not. TBR was being honest I guess.

Seriously Djevv I have tried to have a reasonable discussion and think this is getting close to misrepresenting views and calling people dishonest.

Posters proposing to change the date of Australia day are not un Australian, or looking to abolish the day, or thinking it solves everyones problems. Anything else you can suggest to invalidate a personal opinion?

So now why not say what is wrong with Feb 20?

 

[tigerdell]

Do they give a fig about their "Australian identity" or do they just want to tear the occasion down?

Who is they?

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Who is they?

Um, protesters?

 

[tigerdell]

Um, protesters

Ummm I talking about Indigenous Australians.
But sure everyone protesting is just looking to tear *smile* down. I guess they stormed government buildings, were armed with automatic weapons and belong to local terror groups.
That must be it. An attempt to overturn the Australian government and put in a despotic rule.
Yep. Glad youre asking the important questions Lee

 

[glantone]

I love my Australian identity but I'd feel better about having a day to celebrate it if I wasn't uncomfortable about how it makes other Australians feel.

Good on you Richo, you’re beautiful mate. It’s actually that simple isn’t it. We’ve got to find a day or week or a time in which our indigenous Australians feel equal participants in the concept of Australia Day rather than just extras if we’re going to have an Australia Day that works. Insisting on a date according to the conquerors sensibilities is so racist. How can it be any other way?

 

[Sintiger]

Um, protesters?

Maybe I can sum up your view for you ?
People who protest just want to tear the occasion down. People who protest represent all those who want to change the day.
Ipso facto - all people who want to change the date just want to tear the occasion down
People who just want to tear the occasion down don’t love their country, therefore anyone wanting to change the date doesn’t love their country
Ok?

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Maybe I can sum up your view for you ?
People who protest just want to tear the occasion down.

Yes.

People who protest represent all those who want to change the day.

No. They're just the most visible and receive coverage out of all proportion to their numbers, creating the impression that the day is tainted.

Ipso facto - all people who want to change the date just want to tear the occasion down

If you want the date changed and you don't care what they change it to or even if Australia Day is obeserved at all - yes. Guilty.

 

[Djevv]

Definitely not random. A marketing exercise.

"Defenses based on scripture" is code for after the fact apologetics.

Your last point doesn't scan. All traditions start somewhere and adding 2000 years to a random date doesn't make the origin any less random.

Alright if you read the article it states no one is really sure about why the date is where it is. That the reasoning is lost in the mists of time does not make it random - even if the reason is theological rather than the actual date.

Anyway the antiquity of the date means no one would ever dream of shifting it ‘because it is just a date for a family get together anyway’.

 

[Baloo]

If you want the date changed and you don't care what they change it to or even if Australia Day is obeserved at all - yes. Guilty.

I want the date changed, but I don't really care what date they choose, how am I guilty of wanting to tear it down?

Why does a day to celebrate Australia need to have any historical significance?

 

[Djevv]

Seriously Djevv I have tried to have a reasonable discussion and think this is getting close to misrepresenting views and calling people dishonest.

Posters proposing to change the date of Australia day are not un Australian, or looking to abolish the day, or thinking it solves everyones problems. Anything else you can suggest to invalidate a personal opinion?

So now why not say what is wrong with Feb 20?

I’m just giving my opinion like everyone else. I gave reasons for my views. I am aware that not everyone at these events has anti-Australian views. I am also aware that the media highlights the more radical views to sell papers.

As for thinking things will change as a result of changing the day I do, for the worse. We will achieve two days of protests rather than one. Radicals are not going to change their views on a nation like Australia with its western colonial heritage. It is everything they despise.

What happened on Feb 20? Was that Dusty’s birthday? Should be celebrated as a national holiday just not as Australia Day.

 

[Djevv]

Why does a day to celebrate Australia need to have any historical significance?

Why would you celebrate a national day on a day of no historical significance?

 

[Baloo]

Why would you celebrate a national day on a day of no historical significance?

Why do you need a day of historical significance to celebrate a National Day?