Burqa Poll

[MightyTiger]

I make fun of the burqa only because I think it is an issue.
From my pov women wearing the burqa is contrary to the entire concept of equality.

If a woman freely chooses to wear a burqa because she wants to withdraw from the public view then fine, that would be her choice. To do so habitually would suggest she needs counseling but hey again, that would be her choice. Lots of people withdraw from society in lots of different ways - wearing burqa would be one.

But for women to wear the burqa in order to conform to cultural or religious laws laid down by men is as I said contrary to the concept of equality and as far as I’m concerned not welcome in Australia.
Why anyone living here in a society which prides itself on a history of struggling for equality would tolerate pandering to cultural or religious male minority concepts imported from appallingly male dominated repressive societies like Afghanistan, Pakistan and others is beyond me.

It might be that we feel so disconnected from a woman wearing a full burqa - we know there’s a human in there somewhere but what the eye doesn’t see ……- that it easy to tolerate, but the sight always sends shivers down my spine. If I had a daughter I wonder if she would like having to wear a burqa to keep her man happy.

Do you even know why women wear Scarfs or Burqas? And I mean the actual reason and what it says in the Quran?

 

[Legends of 2017]

It was a cop Legends. You didn't expect them to find the bleeding obvious did you.

;D

 

[glantone]

Do you even know why women wear Scarfs or Burqas? And I mean the actual reason and what it says in the Quran?

Probably not.
I might be wrong but I believe that women who wear burqas in most cases do so to fit in with their cultural or religious roots. Guessing here but I also believe most if not all of those roots were fashioned in patriarchal societies by men for men. Much to my shame I don’t believe women who wear the full burqa (the version I take issue with) do so to symbolize their individuality as free thinking individuals.

As for the quran or the bible or any other ancient book of fabled gods and winged monsters – Jason and the Argonauts excluded of course - I don’t subscribe to the view that modern Australia should necessarily adopt life styles or philosophies fashionable at a time when the earth was thought to be flat, sky fairies abounded and attending a stoning was viewed as a pleasant family outing. We've been there, done that with christianity.

Women wearing head scarves are not dehumanized. The person under the head scarf can shine through as an individual. I have no issue with this. Women in coronation street wear head scarves for goodness sake.

Women wearing full burqas is another matter – they are totally dehumanized in my view. How can a head dress in which only the eyes or no facial features at all are visible have any redeeming qualities. Imagine her standing in front of the mirror after just getting dressed, looking into the mirror yet even she unable to see herself and thinking – ‘here I am. I am woman.’

I find it astounding that in our good natured attempts to accommodate foreign cultures we accept values which are diametrically opposed to everything we stand for. There’s got to be a worthy phd in there somewhere.

Hey, here’s an idea, lots of Australians come from countries where for centuries labour has little or no protection, should we let Australians who originate from these countries set up shop likewise here? I mean, we don’t want to be seen as discriminatory do we.

I reckon if I were to completely cover the head of my dog every time we went walking because I thought it best for my dog people would call me mad and cruel and I’d probably have charges laid against me by the RSPCA. Yet if I force my daughter to wear a full burqa each time she goes outside it’s acceptable. Go figure.

I could go on but after losing to the Gold Coast .......

 

[Willo]

Do you even know why women wear Scarfs or Burqas? And I mean the actual reason and what it says in the Quran?

What is the reason and what does it say?

 

[Rosy]

Do you even know why women wear Scarfs or Burqas? And I mean the actual reason and what it says in the Quran?

Glantone raises a very good point imo. I wouldn't have a clue myself of the actual reasons and what is tays in the Quran but would welcome some facts to consider.

 

[MightyTiger]

Probably not.
I might be wrong but I believe that women who wear burqas in most cases do so to fit in with their cultural or religious roots. Guessing here but I also believe most if not all of those roots were fashioned in patriarchal societies by men for men. Much to my shame I don’t believe women who wear the full burqa (the version I take issue with) do so to symbolize their individuality as free thinking individuals.

As for the quran or the bible or any other ancient book of fabled gods and winged monsters – Jason and the Argonauts excluded of course - I don’t subscribe to the view that modern Australia should necessarily adopt life styles or philosophies fashionable at a time when the earth was thought to be flat, sky fairies abounded and attending a stoning was viewed as a pleasant family outing. We've been there, done that with christianity.

Women wearing head scarves are not dehumanized. The person under the head scarf can shine through as an individual. I have no issue with this. Women in coronation street wear head scarves for goodness sake.

Women wearing full burqas is another matter – they are totally dehumanized in my view. How can a head dress in which only the eyes or no facial features at all are visible have any redeeming qualities. Imagine her standing in front of the mirror after just getting dressed, looking into the mirror yet even she unable to see herself and thinking – ‘here I am. I am woman.’

I find it astounding that in our good natured attempts to accommodate foreign cultures we accept values which are diametrically opposed to everything we stand for. There’s got to be a worthy phd in there somewhere.

Hey, here’s an idea, lots of Australians come from countries where for centuries labour has little or no protection, should we let Australians who originate from these countries set up shop likewise here? I mean, we don’t want to be seen as discriminatory do we.

I reckon if I were to completely cover the head of my dog every time we went walking because I thought it best for my dog people would call me mad and cruel and I’d probably have charges laid against me by the RSPCA. Yet if I force my daughter to wear a full burqa each time she goes outside it’s acceptable. Go figure.

I could go on but after losing to the Gold Coast .......

What is the reason and what does it say?

Glantone raises a very good point imo. I wouldn't have a clue myself of the actual reasons and what is tays in the Quran but would welcome some facts to consider.

I was about to write something up but came across this little gem of a piece, this should explain everything.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/hijabcanada4.htm

One of the major misconceptions about the hijab (covering of the body except the face and hands) is that young women are forced to wear it by their parents or by male family members.

Sumayya Syed, 16, says that what parents or men want have nothing to do with it. In fact, she astounds people who ask by saying that every woman should have this form of liberation.

Syed maintains that when a woman is covered, men cannot judge her by her appearance but are forced to evaluate her by her personality, character, and morals. "I tell them that the hijab is not a responsibility, it's a right given to me by my Creator who knows us best. It's a benefit to me, so why not? It's something every woman should strive to get and should want."

The young woman admits to being surprised that many people wonder if she wears the hijab everywhere (at home, when sleeping, in the shower). The truth is that Muslim women only cover themselves in front of men who are not direct relatives (brothers, fathers, and uncles) to prevent indecent acts or thoughts.

Another young woman who wears the hijab, Zeinab Moallim, 18, maintains that some people assume that all Muslims who wear the traditional dress are immigrants who don't know English and perceive them as "weirdos".

"I remember in my class when I answer questions, some students look at me like I'm kind of dumb and I can't answer (them)," she says. "So usually I answer, just to let them know I can do things."

All of the young women interviewed agreed that the advantages of wearing the hijab are many. According to Rema Zawi, 16, "You feel modest...and you feel like you're covered up. You have more self-respect. You have more confidence in yourself that you don't need to care about (how) you look."

Syed emphasizes that a major plus is that people actually evaluate her on who she is and not on her beauty or clothing. "It keeps me protected from the fashion industry. The hijab liberates you from the media, brainwashing you into, Buy this, buy that, you're supposed to look like this," she says. "It allows me to be who I am. I don't have to worry about being popular through buying things that are 'cool'."

Hana Tariq, 15, who just recently began wearing the hijab, agrees with Syed's view and says that the hijab lets you know who your real friends are.

"People who are friends with you because of the way you look aren't real friends. And people who judge you by your personality are true friends, because people can change looks but they don't really change personalities."

The young women said the hijab provides them with an identity. They don't have to tell people they are Muslims. It shows.

However, there are drawbacks. Mariam Hussein, 18, was in a store minding her own business, when an old woman came up to her and proclaimed loudly, "Go back to your country!" It was a difficult situation because the young woman considers Canada her home.

Responses to the hijab vary widely. Zawi is one of the few Muslim girls in her school who wears the traditional Muslim garb. She says some students treat her differently by looking at her in strange ways or vandalizing her property. However, she also finds that other students have questions for her regarding the hijab.

"I find that it's so hard for them to ask because they're really shy, so I confront them. I tell them, If you want to know anything, just talk to me." One young woman's first year at Silverthorn Collegiate was especially difficult. A counsellor was looking at her English marks from previous report cards, and said she found them "impressive". But then she made a comment that hurt. "Well, it's obvious you don't need ESL," she said.

The counsellor made the assumption that since the young woman wore the hijab, she had just emigrated and needed to take English as a Second Language. Syed, who attends a school with a fairly large Muslim population, says the people she knows treat her with dignity and the comments she gets from friends and classmates are generally not disrespectful.

"Most people in my life respect me with my hijab: they don't swear around me, they don't crack bad jokes," she says.

Some people may think that the more a woman covers, the less freedom she has. But, according to Muslim tradition, it is actually the opposite. The less she wears, the more she is degraded and the more she is put in the line of fire of male criticism.

Syed is astonished at the behaviour of some women who claim to want "freedom". She can't understand how going topless, for example, represents equality. "People have to understand that we (males and females) are not equal in body image but we should be equal in rights, in justice. Taking off your shirt will not make you equal to a man; it'll make you lower. Why? Because the woman's body is created differently."

Amani Elkassabany, 30, who is not presently wearing the hijab, has a different view. She applauds those who wear the hijab (especially those who wear it for God and with good intentions), but feels that it is not necessary to wear the hijab to gain respect.

"Just because a woman covers, doesn't mean she is automatically entitled to respect, or has already proven the worth of her mind. Respect must be earned regardless of one's appearance and it is not earned through a dress code alone."

Elkassabany sees advantages to wearing the hijab, but thinks that having internal modesty is more important than external modesty. "This external covering is really just a reflection of an inner commitment to dedicate oneself to the worship of the Creator," she comments.

She is also concerned about the restraints wearing the hijab implies, restraints that are exclusive to women. "Both men and women are required to dedicate themselves to God, but it is only women who are expected to demonstrate this dedication outwardly in the form of hijab," she says. "This expectation on the part of [women] is what I find difficult to accept."

Whether the hijab constrains or liberates women is an ongoing debate. However, statistics reveal that in Western society, women and men are perceived very differently.

One study, done at the University of California, found that media photographs emphasize the faces of men but the bodies of women. In the average picture of a woman, less than half the photo (45%) was devoted to the woman's face. In the pictures of men, nearly two-thirds (65%) of the photograph featured the man's face.

The same article reports the results of an experiment conducted with a group of 40 male and 40 female college students. These students were told that a study of freehand drawing styles was under way and were assigned to draw either a man or a woman, capturing "the character of a real person." It was observed that the men drawn had very distinct features, with close attention paid to facial details. However, the images drawn of the women were mostly of the body, with the faces vague or even featureless.

Perhaps, as women de-emphasize their bodies, this severe imbalance will be at least partially rectified. Meanwhile, Islam provides a solution to this problem - one which dignifies and honours all women.



Discussion Points for young people

1. Is it okay to ask questions about the customs of another culture? Why might that be a frightening thing to do?

2. Why do some Muslim women choose to wear the hijab? Why do some choose not to?

3. How is the hijab a form of liberation for the women who choose to wear it? How is it a form of constraint?

4. How does the hijab provide a woman with an identity? Why might a Muslim woman want her religious beliefs to show up-front?

5. What does the need for the hijab suggest about the Muslim view of men? Why has its purpose been misunderstood?

6. Syed says that people evaluate her on the basis of who she is when she wears her hijab, not on her beauty or her clothing. But, she also says, that people sometimes assume that she is stupid, or doesn't speak English well, based on her choice of dress. Does the hijab free a young woman from one form of oppression only to put her in the path of another?

7. In your opinion, does the hijab successfully address the problem of the over-emphasising of women's bodies that Hussein describes in her article? Is a woman's voice stronger if her body is veiled?

8. Does the legal right to go topless empower women or degrade them?



According to Hussein, the wearing of the hijab, an ancient tradition, directly addresses a modern concern, women's liberation. Do some digging into your own cultural background. Are there any ancient rituals, customs, traditions or beliefs that could be used to solve modern dilemmas? What are they? What problems do they solve? Could anyone apply these solutions, no matter what race, creed or colour

 

[Rosy]

I was about to write something up but came across this little gem of a piece, this should explain everything.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/hijabcanada4.htm

That doesn't tell me what it says in the Quran or why it has to be worn "for God".

It tells me there are very different rules for for females than there are for males.

For example why aren't the follwoing equally applicable to either sex?

Syed maintains that when a woman is covered, men cannot judge her by her appearance but are forced to evaluate her by her personality, character, and morals. "I tell them that the hijab is not a responsibility, it's a right given to me by my Creator who knows us best. It's a benefit to me, so why not? It's something every woman should strive to get and should want.

"You feel modest...and you feel like you're covered up. You have more self-respect. You have more confidence in yourself that you don't need to care about (how) you look.

Some people may think that the more a woman covers, the less freedom she has. But, according to Muslim tradition, it is actually the opposite. The less she wears, the more she is degraded and the more she is put in the line of fire of male criticism.

"This external covering is really just a reflection of an inner commitment to dedicate oneself to the worship of the Creator,"

 

[MightyTiger]

That doesn't tell me what it says in the Quran or why it has to be worn "for God".

It tells me there are very different rules for for females than there are for males.

For example why aren't the follwoing equally applicable to either sex?

It pretty much does.

Syed maintains that when a woman is covered, men cannot judge her by her appearance but are forced to evaluate her by her personality, character, and morals. "I tell them that the hijab is not a responsibility, it's a right given to me by my Creator who knows us best. It's a benefit to me, so why not? It's something every woman should strive to get and should want.

Some people may think that the more a woman covers, the less freedom she has. But, according to Muslim tradition, it is actually the opposite. The less she wears, the more she is degraded and the more she is put in the line of fire of male criticism.

"This external covering is really just a reflection of an inner commitment to dedicate oneself to the worship of the Creator,"

That's pretty much a short summation of what it says in the Quran, the Hijab or Burqa is ultimately the Women's choice, they aren't forced to wear and wont be judged any differently to a Female who doesn't wear one.

Take for instance my Mother, she is a converted Muslim who converted once she Married my father, she doesn't wear a Hijab or a Burqa, the Quran doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want, it's more of a guide to a healthy life of proper living.

Also I want to share something else with you all, did you know that Mother Mary is mentioned more times in the Quran then any other person? Even more then Profit Muhammed.

Did you also know that in the Quran that Women are held in much higher regard then Men?

The issue is, is that different cultures interpret the Quran in different ways, we have the Sunnis, Alive's and Shafi, 3 Cultures who follow the Quran yet 3 Cultures who are so different in there interpretation of it.

EDIT: Sorry just wanted to add that this discussion about Burqas or Hijabs goes a lot deeper then most people think, it's a bit like a Priest taking a vow of abstinence(Dunno if that's the correct wording correct me if I am wrong) against sex or when you see a nun wearing a scarf, these are personal vows people take with God and a lifestyle people choose to live by.

 

[Rosy]

It pretty much does.

They're more personal opinion than quotes from the Quran. I'd like to know the official wording of what it says, as you asked glantone. Why are the rules different for women than they are for men?

 

[Willo]

They're more personal opinion than quotes from the Quran. I'd like to know the official wording of what it says, as you asked glantone. Why are the rules different for women than they are for men?

Agreed.

So its more cultural dress than religious.
If it's decreed in the Koran/Quran how is it that not all Muslim females don't abide by it?

 

[MightyTiger]

They're more personal opinion than quotes from the Quran. I'd like to know the official wording of what it says, as you asked glantone. Why are the rules different for women than they are for men?

http://mto.org/islam/en/verses_hijab.html

Have a read for yourself, but you have to understand things aren't as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be, religion is a complex thing and will always have conflicting views with modern society.

And I'll ask for your views on this as well as it should be interesting, do you believe that the people of the Church such as Priest's and Nuns should be allowed to have sex and the Nuns allowed to walk around without wearing there headpiece?

 

[Rosy]

You're throwing in red herrings MT.

Your question was "Do you even know why women wear Scarfs or Burqas? And I mean the actual reason and what it says in the Quran?"

You haven't answered it yet. Do you know yourself?

 

[MightyTiger]

Agreed.

So its more cultural dress than religious.
If it's decreed in the Koran/Quran how is it that not all Muslim females don't abide by it?

It's both, but as I said it's more to do with what the individual is comfortable in, if a Muslim women isn't comfortable wearing the Hijab then they aren't bound to wear one.

I'm a Muslim, yet I am not a fully practising one where I abide by everything it says in the Quran, I accept the fact that the Quran has many contradictory views and many conflict with what I feel is right and wrong, but what I will never do is question why, because ultimately if a person was to ever sit down and read the Quran to it's fullest and truly understand everything that is written in it then you would have a much better understanding of it.

 

[MightyTiger]

You're throwing in red herrings MT.

Your question was "Do you even know why women wear Scarfs or Burqas? And I mean the actual reason and what it says in the Quran?"

You haven't answered it yet. Do you know yourself?

I'm pretty sure I just did rosy, that link is 2 verses in the Quran as to why Women should wear a Hijab, I'm not sure how much clearer I could of answered it?

 

[Rosy]

I'm pretty sure I just did rosy, that link is 2 verses in the Quran as to why Women should wear a Hijab, I'm not sure how much clearer I could of answered it?

I don't usually click on remote links. I just read the first bit and it mentions women not displaying their beauty. That makes your questioning of Glantone's post about equality all the more bemusing. Where is the equality in women covering their faces but the same not being expected of men?

 

[MightyTiger]

I don't usually click on remote links. I just read the first bit and it mentions women not displaying their beauty. That makes your questioning of Glantone's post about equality all the more bemusing. Where is the equality in women covering their faces but the same not being expected of men?

I never questioned his post about equality in fact I don't think I've ever mentioned that through all my posts in this thread, and as I said previously Religion will never be as black and white as you are making it out to be, of course Religion will conflict with the views of modern society, I mean who would want to follow a book that was written hundreds of years ago in caves right?

You chose to only read the little you felt like, yet here you are questioning something that is written in the Quran without even knowing all the facts, how can you ever know the full meaning of something without even reading the whole thing or gaining the full knowledge about it?

I understand and would never expect you or someone else to read the Quran in it's entirety, but what makes you feel you have the right to judge something whilst having little to no knowledge about it?

Talk about literally judging a book by it's cover. :

 

[Rosy]

I understand and would never expect you or someone else to read the Quran in it's entirety, but what makes you feel you have the right to judge something whilst having little to no knowledge about it?

Talk about literally judging a book by it's cover.  :

How did I "judge" it?  You asked a question and some asked you to explain.

I never questioned his post about equality

Can you explain what this question was about then please?

 

[MightyTiger]

How did I "judge" it? You asked a question and some asked you to explain.


Can you explain what this question was about then please?

I don't usually click on remote links. I just read the first bit and it mentions women not displaying their beauty. That makes your questioning of Glantone's post about equality all the more bemusing. Where is the equality in women covering their faces but the same not being expected of men?

If that isn't judging a book by it's cover then I don't know what it is, anybody can read a couple lines of something and take it out of context, I'm sure you didn't even bother to read the second verse of it where it explains that several hundred years ago women had to wear it for safety reason, but hey, you read the first bit and make make a call from that.

 

[Willo]

Actually in the link provided ....
2-Sura 59 (al-Ahzab) verses 58-59
At the bottom of the paragraph it states.."Whatever one's views on women literally veiling the face and/or head, there is no instruction to do so in the Holy Qur'an"

 

[Rosy]

If that isn't judging a book by it's cover then I don't know what it is,

I asked a question. I didn't give my opinion on it.

Could you please answer the second question from my post.