David Hicks [Split from Saddam thread] | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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David Hicks [Split from Saddam thread]

Big Cat Lover

Tiger Champion
Mar 30, 2008
3,937
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K3 said:
@Big Cat Lover. From his book, he certainly was no accidental tourist in Afghanistan BUT he was there at the behest of a Pakistani Government subordinate. Out of interest, why would you be disappointed if he sells lots of books?

Of course, that is all if you believe what he has to say in the book. Something that I am sure a number of people on here will not, regardless of the amount of corroborating evidence that has come to light since it's writing.

Not quite sure what that bolded bit means? It appears he was in the wrong place at the wrong time too often?
Does the book provide an answer as to his motive for his actions? Surely not just "adventure"?
Do you believe everything he has to say in the book?
 

K3

Tiger Legend
Oct 9, 2006
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Big Cat Lover said:
Not quite sure what that bolded bit means? It appears he was in the wrong place at the wrong time too often?
Does the book provide an answer as to his motive for his actions? Surely not just "adventure"?
Do you believe everything he has to say in the book?

Geez Big Cat, you sound like my ex... all questions but no answers! ;D

On your questions:
- I think he was only in the wrong place once and that was when 9/11 happened and the people of/in Afghanistan found out about it when the US planes started flying sorties into the country. This lead to pretty much everything else following.
- Yeah, the book does going into the 'whys' of his actions - probably a bit more than would normally make for 'good reading'
- I'm not sure how much I believe but I certainly believe more of the book than what we were told by the media here. As more people come forward with accounts of what the US did to them, I think Hicks' book becomes more believable. Also, I don't think he has any real reason to lie in the book, as doing so would only set-back his treatments.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,348
31
K3 said:
Geez Big Cat, you sound like my ex... all questions but no answers! ;D

K3 I'd be interested to know the gist of whether David admits to doing anything wrong, and if so what exactly, if you can be bothered replying. If not no worries. Why are you wearing that shirt? Why haven't you put the rubbish out? Are you going out with the boys again? Do you love footy more than you love me? Nah not your ex I promise.
 

K3

Tiger Legend
Oct 9, 2006
5,213
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rosy23 said:
K3 I'd be interested to know the gist of whether David admits to doing anything wrong, and if so what exactly, if you can be bothered replying. If not no worries. Why are you wearing that shirt? Why haven't you put the rubbish out? Are you going out with the boys again? Do you love footy more than you love me? Nah not your ex I promise.

I suppose that is where things get interesting, as people's bias really comes out as they argue that he did this and that and broke so many laws...

From what he says in the book, leaving out other's opinions or the law, are some points:
- In Kosovo he was fighting in a fight as a legal combatant - although he didn't join in any battle or even fire a single shot. One really interesting thing here is that the photo that did the rounds, of him holding a missile launcher, was part of a much larger photo of three guys 'stricking a pose' lol. He said that a friend of his sold it to The Australian for $3000 and the cut it up to suit their needs.
- In Kosovo he received basic 'normal' training in combat and arms usage
- He was on the same side as the UN

-In Afghanistan
- He went there at the behest of a mob that was the Pakistani Government's 'fighting in Kashmir' arm
- He went there to be instructed in fighting techniques for that situation, which was then to be passed on to higher-ups within this organisation
- He agreed to go there so he could learn more about Islam and see the country, meet the people and experience the place
- I don't think he did any of the training, but that could just be my tired brain not working at this point :)
- He didn't fire a single shot, let alone target an Australian, or allied, soldier
- He was picked up after having been ordered to 'guard the tank', by a Northern Alliance soldier

To actually answer your question, sorry about that, he doesn't believe he did anything wrong or illegal... and on this I think the facts back him up. And by 'facts' i am not referring to his word but to the way 'conflicts' are treated by relevant international laws and his part in such situations.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
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Interesting posts. 'Treason' is pretty fluid concept. Personally I don't put much stock in it.

If he was stupid enough to go fight ideological wars, I say let him.
 

Azza

Tiger Champion
Aug 30, 2007
4,057
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evo said:
Interesting posts. 'Treason' is pretty fluid concept. Personally I don't put much stock in it.

If he was stupid enough to go fight ideological wars, I say let him.

Agree with the latter. The yanks certainly seem out of line with their treatment of prisoners. But if people like Hicks declare jihad on the west (including Australia and everything it stands for), how much support are they due from their country when things get ugly for them?

I reckon he's been a deluded twerp and should have copped a metaphocial clip around the earhole, but can he really complain if the country washes it's hands of him?
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
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Azza said:
but can he really complain if the country washes it's hands of him?
I don't reckon he can.

Rather than jailing him for years I think that would've been the most suitable outcome actually. Just cancel his Australian passport.
 

K3

Tiger Legend
Oct 9, 2006
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Azza said:
Agree with the latter. The yanks certainly seem out of line with their treatment of prisoners.

Azza, that would have to be the biggest understatement I have seen on any PRE board... which is really saying something! ha ha ha

Azza said:
But if people like Hicks declare jihad on the west (including Australia and everything it stands for), how much support are they due from their country when things get ugly for them?

When or where did he declare Jihad on The West and Australia? Also think that Australia should have brought him back to try him. There is no acceptable reason for leaving an Australian (regardless of whether you agree with their ideologies) in the situation that Guantanamo... was! Whilst slightly off topic I think the exact same thing can be said for Assange. I am also sure that the information we are fed by mainstream media contains only the smallest fraction of the truth.

Azza said:
I reckon he's been a deluded twerp and should have copped a metaphocial clip around the earhole, but can he really complain if the country washes it's hands of him?
I think the above is a bit harsh Azza; haven't you done something in your youth that you look back on and go... "oh gaaaawd, did I really do that???" I know I have, unfortunately! ;D I think David did some things that I consider stupid but what happened to him as a result was just terrible, absolutely terrible! I also believe that as he didn't break a single Australian, or International law, he should have been brought back to Oz and put through the justice system here. I also know that this didn't happen for the reason mentioned above. He didn't break a single Australian law and 'we' knew it.
 

K3

Tiger Legend
Oct 9, 2006
5,213
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evo said:
I don't reckon he can.

Rather than jailing him for years I think that would've been the most suitable outcome actually. Just cancel his Australian passport.

Why? What did he actually do to deserve that?
 

Azza

Tiger Champion
Aug 30, 2007
4,057
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K3 said:
Azza, that would have to be the biggest understatement I have seen on any PRE board... which is really saying something! ha ha ha

Having read 'The men who stare at goats' recently, I'm aware of the understatement!

K3 said:
When or where did he declare Jihad on The West and Australia?

I presume these comments are genuine. If not, I'm happy to stand corrected. To me it's pretty obvious he rejected the west completely in favour of Islam and jihad -

"Jihad is still valid today and will be for all time. The West is full of poison. The western society is controlled by the Jews with music, TV, houses, cars, free sex takes Muslims away from the true Islam keeps Islam week and in the third world."

"I believe that al-Qaeda camps provided a great opportunity for Muslims like myself from all over the world to train for military operations and jihad. I knew after six months that I was receiving training from al-Qaeda, who had declared war on numerous countries and peoples."

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/smith

'And thanks to the taxpayer-financed documentary The President Versus David Hicks, we also know that during this period Hicks was writing letters home saying he was fighting so that, in his words, "the Western-Jewish domination is finished, so we live under Muslim law again".'

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/editorial-hicks-finally-faces-the-consequences/story-e6frg6zo-1111113234573

K3 said:
I think the above is a bit harsh Azza; haven't you done something in your youth that you look back on and go... "oh gaaaawd, did I really do that???" I know I have, unfortunately! ;D

Hence my point that from my perspective he deserves a metaphorical ear cuffing. The yanks were wrong in their treatment of prisoners, but geez, if you're stupid enough to declare jihad, you'd better be prepared to cop a fair whacking.

And sorry, I don't see an intention to forcibly convert the west (and by extension Australia) to fundamentalist Islamic states as something to treat particularly light heartedly.
 

evo

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2003
22,192
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K3 said:
Why? What did he actually do to deserve that?
the same things that he was convicted of. I just think that would've been a more appropriate outcome than 7 years in jail.

If he wants to fight "western-jewish domination" in an army, fine, go on then, you are welcome to live in Afghanistsn, Kosovo etc as far as we (Australia) are concerned. That would be my response , anyway.

Having said that, I don't feel that strongly about him either way. I'm pretty much with you, he seems to have been pretty harshly treated all things considered.
 

K3

Tiger Legend
Oct 9, 2006
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Panthera tigris FC said:
This thread certainly misses the polarising effect of the scouser.
Scouser... now there's a term you don't hear every day, unfortunately. ;D
 

Ian4

BIN MAN!
May 6, 2004
22,180
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Melbourne
http://www.news.com.au/national/david-hicks-conviction-could-be-overturned/story-fndo4bst-1226497535585

David Hicks terrorism conviction could be overturned

DAVID Hicks could have his terrorism conviction overturned after a US Appeals Court decision in Washington overnight which has thrown out the conviction of another man who was Osama Bin Laden's driver.
Salim Hamdan’s case in which the charge of material support of terrorism, which was introduced in 2006, was rejected when applied retrospectively means Hicks’ conviction on the same charge could now also in doubt.

The court also found material support of terrorism was not a war crime.

Hicks' lawyer Dan Mori told the ABC this morning that Hicks could see his conviction thrown out following the ruling.
More to come

giddy up
 

Ian4

BIN MAN!
May 6, 2004
22,180
4,679
Melbourne
the 'more to come' has came...

http://www.news.com.au/national/david-hicks-conviction-could-be-overturned/story-fndo4bst-1226497535585

David Hicks terrorism conviction could be overturned
Gemma Jones, Bryan Littlely From: AAP October 17, 2012 3:37PM

DAVID Hicks is examining the possibility of seeking damages against the Australian government after the charge he was convicted of in 2007 was ruled invalid by a US appeals court.

Mr Hicks has engaged his original lawyer Stephen Kenny to act for him in the latest US Appeals Court matter and met with the Adelaide lawyer at the weekend.

"I met with David and he asked me to act for him,'' Mr Kenny said.

"It's looking very good for him at the moment.

"It looks like it is confirming the position we had all the way along - that this crime did not exist in international law.''

Mr Kenny said he was acting to have Mr Hicks' conviction overturned and to determine if there was a basis to take action against the Australian government.

We're looking at the role that the Australian government played in his incarceration at the moment," he said.
"If there is a basis for a claim - we'll be making one."

Former foreign affairs minister Alexander Downer, writing in an opinion piece for News Ltd newspapers tomorrow, said he was bemused that some Australians regarded Hicks as a hero brutally treated by the Americans.

“The fact is, he was seized during the invasion of Afghanistan while supporting the enemy; our enemy,” Mr Downer said.

“Imagine how in 1940 we would have felt about an Australian training and fighting with the Waffen SS? If we'd caught him what would have happened to him?

“Hicks wasn't just simply convicted; he pleaded guilty to providing material support for terrorism. He admitted under oath that he had supported the Taliban. Our enemies, the killers of our Diggers.

So he can now go to the American courts and do what he likes. But for me he'll always be the man who joined with the most evil, most murderous group around.”

Mr Hicks has told media he intends on taking legal action against the Australian government and demanding a full investigation into his incarceration.

"We have always said the conviction was doubtful and shouldn't stand," Mr Hicks said.

"I want a full investigation. The Australian government knew for years that the system was not fair, but it put me up before it anyway."

Mr Hicks could have his terrorism conviction overturned after a US Appeals Court decision in Washington overnight which has thrown out the conviction of another man who was Osama Bin Laden's driver.

Salim Hamdan’s case in which the charge of material support of terrorism, which was introduced in 2006, was rejected when applied retrospectively means David Hicks’ conviction on the same charge could now also be in doubt.

The court also found material support of terrorism was not a war crime.

Hicks' lawyer Dan Mori told the ABC this morning that the Adelaide-born man, who was captured in Afghanistan in December, 2001, and charged with providing support for terrorism, could have his conviction thrown out following the ruling.

"It [the charge of material support for terrorism] is null and void for conduct prior to 2006," Mr Mori said.

"It is showing that what they set up was ineffective. They were trying to set up an ad hoc process after the fact instead of using the Federal Court system in the US that has been trying terrorism cases for years before and worked effectively.

"Unfortunately the military commission system was set up and it was rushed, and not very effectively, so now we see the problems with it.
"The foundation is rotten and the house is starting to crumble."

"I think it would be great for some official recognition that what he was put through was not fair and was not just," he said.
"I think that this court decision supports that position and hopefully it will act as some catalyst to getting some real closure and clearing his name officially."

Mr Mori said it was up to Hicks and his new legal team to pursue the matter.

But the Australian government says it sees ''no immediate impact'' on Hicks' terrorism conviction from the US court decision.

A spokesman for Attorney-General Nicola Roxon said today the government was examining the case for any ''local implications''.

''We are advised that there is no immediate impact for Mr Hicks' conviction and sentence arising out of this case at this stage,'' the spokesman told AAP.

''He was not a party to the case and there are potential appeal proceedings.''

Hicks is unaware that he can claim to be an innocent man, his father says.

His Adelaide-based father, Terry, said his son is uncontactable at the moment.

"I think it is bloody brilliant," Mr Hicks said of the news.

"At this point in time, I'm not sure what step (David) will take ... he would not know about the decision yet.

"He has other things going on at present.

"He has been up and down a number of times over the years and he goes through a lot of pain and suffering."

Mr Hicks maintained that David had never been given a fair trial and in his eyes was innocent until he could face a "proper court system".
"I suppose if David's name is legally cleared that makes me feel a lot better," he told the ABC.

"It will make David feel a lot better, and I think the people that have supported David over the years, they will be able to put their hands up and say, 'This is what we have all been working for'.

"It's starting out to be a good day.

"Once you start using retrospective laws, it all becomes illegal.''
 

K3

Tiger Legend
Oct 9, 2006
5,213
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I have read his book, and whilst mainly boring, I finished it up thinking that he was just a drongo.

I also think retrospective laws are plain ol' wrong. Or as a line, in one of my favourite flicks says, "every shade of wrong".
 

Azza

Tiger Champion
Aug 30, 2007
4,057
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K3 said:
I have read his book, and whilst mainly boring, I finished it up thinking that he was just a drongo.

I also think retrospective laws are plain ol' wrong. Or as a line, in one of my favourite flicks says, "every shade of wrong".

Agree with all that. But what's with this 'clearing my name' crap? He was wrongfully convicted by applying legislation retrospectively, sure. But there's little doubt he joined Al Qaeda with the idea to overthrow 'The West' in the name of Islam.

Go ahead and overturn the conviction, but don't expect people to pretend your culpable stupidity never happened.
 

AngryAnt

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Nov 25, 2004
27,017
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Azza said:
Agree with all that. But what's with this 'clearing my name' crap? He was wrongfully convicted by applying legislation retrospectively, sure. But there's little doubt he joined Al Qaeda with the idea to overthrow 'The West' in the name of Islam.

Go ahead and overturn the conviction, but don't expect people to pretend your culpable stupidity never happened.

LOL good point Azza but being culpably stupid is not a crime.

If you look at the history, he went to Kosovo and joined the KLA in 1999. He returned to Australia, became a Muslim and tried to join the ADF but was rejected on unsatisfactory educational grounds. He then went to Afghanistan and trained at various camps (prior to Sept 2001) and on seeing the 9/11 attacks made plans to leave, which was when he was captured and turned over to the US forces in return for a bounty for foreign fighters. Remember no-one those reaonably expert in the politics of counter-terrorism had ever heard of Al Qaeda.

He was certainly a foolish adventurer with delusions of being some sort of freedom fighter but to say he went to Afghanistan and joined Al Qaeda to overthrow the West is stretching the facts a bit.