Essendon = Entitlement | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Essendon = Entitlement

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
Well, not have anything to do with it would have been a good starting point.
Failing that, insisting on medical oversight would have been a pretty simple course of action.
Realistically, there are any number of actions that he could have taken to avoid the catastrophic outcome that eventuated.

If you are asking him to make decisions about how the high performance and medical teams operate then you're asking him to be the football manager as well as the senior coach. He did raise the point about medical oversight but it never happened because the person responsible didn't implement it.
 

wammo

We're from Tigerland
May 16, 2007
634
459
So you’re suggesting Doc Reid was involved with the program?
And that a coach has no ability to discuss concerns with the football manager, or the board?
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,162
15,031
If you are asking him to make decisions about how the high performance and medical teams operate then you're asking him to be the football manager as well as the senior coach. He did raise the point about medical oversight but it never happened because the person responsible didn't implement it.
He also directly instructed people to bypass Dr Reid as Reid was blocking and raising concerns the use of unapproved and unknown drugs.

That to me is totally unforgivable. To deliberately sideline the club doctor who had legitimate concerns so as to gain a competitive advantage.

It shows (a) that Hird knew exactly that these drugs were not kosher and (b) that he was prepared to bypass the club doctor putting players at risk.

Inexcusable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 15 users

Tenacious

Tiger Legend
May 19, 2008
5,734
4,166
He also directly instructed people to bypass Dr Reid as Reid was blocking and raising concerns the use of unapproved and unknown drugs.

That to me is totally unforgivable. To deliberately sideline the club doctor who had legitimate concerns so as to gain a competitive advantage.

It shows (a) that Hird knew exactly that these drugs were not kosher and (b) that he was prepared to bypass the club doctor putting players at risk.

Inexcusable.
Whatever it took
 

ceehook2

Tiger Matchwinner
Feb 11, 2021
831
1,436
64
I've asked this before in this discussion without really getting an answer.

What should he have done?
Hird should have asked more questions of Dank and found ways to validate Danks claims
and if Hird was to oversee a program like that , insist that records were kept
I'm sure he would have been sold the idea that this was new and was ground breaking and to have an advantage on your direct opposition it needs to be kept hush hush
and I'm completely ok with that
but if it is so new I'd like to see say 2 or 3 dosage levels and track that and see if there is a difference between the groups with their GPS numbers , bmi numbers etc
do they get initial improvement but then train off ???

I'm quite sure , at the time , they were measuring all sorts of stuff to do with physical conditioning and performance because we were hearing that if was difficult for guys to get in goal kicking practice becuase the training durations were strictly monitored by then physical fitness guys and the coaches then wanted to squeeze as much as they could into those allocated minutes
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
He also directly instructed people to bypass Dr Reid as Reid was blocking and raising concerns the use of unapproved and unknown drugs.

Are you sure about that?

Hird should have asked more questions of Dank and found ways to validate Danks claims
and if Hird was to oversee a program like that , insist that records were kept

So what you are saying is Hird should have managed an employee he didn't manage, checked up on him and made sure he was doing his job properly.

In other words you are asking James Hird to do Paul Hamilton's job.
 

jimbob

Tiger Superstar
Jul 20, 2008
2,042
1,563
Traralgon
Are you sure about that?



So what you are saying is Hird should have managed an employee he didn't manage, checked up on him and made sure he was doing his job properly.

In other words you are asking James Hird to do Paul Hamilton's job.
TBR, there is a copy of a txt in an earlier post on this thread where Hird txts to either Dank or Robinson says that Doc Reid is hampering things. What do you think that refers to??
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

jimbob

Tiger Superstar
Jul 20, 2008
2,042
1,563
Traralgon
Sorry TBR, I’m just not with you on the ‘Hird was duped’ page.

You’ve expressed this:
Why would he question off-site injections if an expert told him they were required? Hird isn't medically trained, why would he argue if Dank says to ensure hygiene standards are met it needs to be done in a clinic? It's not like going off-site for a medical procedure is uncommon practice.

But someone who was medically trained wrote this to him:

Dr Bruce Reid wrote to James Hird and then football manager Paul Hamilton in January 2012 expressing his concern over the supplements program. His communication was revealed as part of the list of charges levelled by the AFL against the Bombers.

Dear James/Paul

I have some fundamental problems being club doctor at present. This particularly applies to the administration of supplements. Although we have been giving supplements for approximately three months, despite repeated requests as to exactly what we are giving our players and the literature related to this, have at no time been given that until last Sunday [15 January 2012]. Last week the players were given subcutaneous injections, not by myself, and I had no idea that this was happening and also what drug was involved.

It appears to me that in Sydney with Rugby League the clubs do not answer to the governing body (e.g. A.F.L.). It seems that their whole culture is based on trying to beat the system as are close to the edge as one can. It is my belief in A.F.L. that we should be winning flags by keeping a drug free culture.

It is all very well to say this is not banned and that is not banned but for example, the injection that we have given our players subcutaneously, was a drug called AOD/9604, is an Oligomeric Peptide. This drug is derived from the growth hormone.

This molecule has been constructed so it has removed what we call IGF1, which is part of the growth hormone that causes muscle and organ growth and bone length and photosynthesis.

It is at the moment used for fat metabolism but also bone strength in children and may have some side effects that may be beneficial in bone growth. This to me just seem ludicrous at this stage where the only trials I have got are on how to lost weight and fat around the abdomen.

If we are resorting to deliver this altered growth hormone molecule, I think we are playing at the edge and this will read extremely badly in the press for our club and for the benefits and also for side effects that are not known in the long term, I have trouble with all these drugs.

I am still not sure whether AOD/9604 is approved by the drug authorities in Australia at this stage. Just because it is not classified as illegal, doesn’t mean that it can be used freely in the community, it cannot. The other interesting thing about AOD/9604, is that its market in America is in body builders. This also should raise a red flag if we are worried about perception.

When it comes to Actovegin, this has been used around the world for many years. There is some flimsy evidence that it may help in speeding up the healing of tendons when they are damaged, though after speaking to radiologists, the recent opinion is that platelets and one’s own blood, probably does a better job.

We are claiming that we should use it as a recovery agent. To me it seems ludicrous that a few mls of calf’s blood spun down, is going to give you a concentration of growth factors and other factors that would speed up recovery.

I am very frustrated by this and now feel I am letting the club down by not automatically approving of these things. I need to collect my thoughts as these drugs have been given without my knowledge.

I am sure Steve Danks believes that what we are doing is totally ethical and legal, however, one wonders whether if you take a long stance and look at this from a distance, whether you would want your children being injected with a derivative hormone that is not free to the community and whether calf’s blood, that has been used for many years and is still doubted by most doctors, is worth pursuing.

Kind Regards
Dr. Bruce Reid
M.B.B.S.
Senior Medical Officer


Following, Reid’s letter, Hird’s text:
In a text sent on 30 January 2012, Hird told Corcoran that he should
"organise a meeting with you me Reidy, Danksy and Weapon the day you get back. Reidy has stopped everything which is getting a little frustrating."

In another text message, Corcoran tells Hird: "You know I read a book on world doping while away and once lay people start injecting players there are always issues!! We must be careful for a host of reasons."


I won’t put the rest up here, but when you knit all the texts, letters, etc and timelines together, it paints a very strong strong picture that Hird wasn’t innocent, but up to his eyeballs in it.

Either way, he was either guilty or he was extraordinarily and hopelessly inept in a situation where any average Joe could see that what was happening was crooked. Either way his sense of governance for the role of senior coach is not appropriate. Even if he is utterly innocent and a mere scapegoat, appointing him as Essendon coach again sends a terrible message to the grass roots football community, especially if most clubs were somewhat dirty at the time.
TBR - this post is the one I referred to and what we are talking about. Reid’s letter is dated 15th Jan. His txts to Corcoran on the 30th Jan requesting a meeting refer to the fact that Reid has stopped everything and it is “frustrating”.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
TBR, there is a copy of a txt in an earlier post on this thread where Hird txts to either Dank or Robinson says that Doc Reid is hampering things. What do you think that refers to??

He responds to Reid's letter by reiterating that everything they do must be approved by Dr Reid. He later says Reid is slowing things down and is frustrated and asks Corcoran to talk to him.

That's not directly instructing people to bypass Dr Reid by any stretch of the imagination.
 

ceehook2

Tiger Matchwinner
Feb 11, 2021
831
1,436
64
Are you sure about that?



So what you are saying is Hird should have managed an employee he didn't manage, checked up on him and made sure he was doing his job properly.

In other words you are asking James Hird to do Paul Hamilton's job.
"Paul Hamilton's job"
hopefully we can agree on , much of what happens within a Club lands on the coaches head

and if its bad you sack the coach first , then you start looking at players and boards

so its not necessarily a bad thing for a coach to question everything going on around him, taking a keen interest on everything going on will keep everyone honest

I remember reading a piece on Leigh Matthews joining Brisbane , and he reputedly took an interest in everything from how reception ran to right thru the football dept.
he was joining something of a rag tag club and he knew what success looked like . I wouldn't mind betting Matthews arriving at Brisbane helped nudge all facets of the club along to be more professional

I don't know what kind of relationship Hird and Hamilton had , could they have been in a room together raising the questions "can we trust this guy Dank ?" , "is this stuff legal ?" "is this stuff safe ?" "how do we know it will really work?" or did Hird do some of his own checking or ask someone outside the Club


"Hird should have managed an employee he didn't manage"
Is the semantics Dank wasn't an employee of the Club , but did contract services to the Club
I see the employment status as a technicality
I recall Dean Robinson saying '''I introduced Dank to Hird"
I recall Hird saying "I wanted a text message after every injecting session" and "I had an injection per week for a period of time"
A lot of mis truths were told during this saga but assuming those pieces are true or true enough
we can deduce Hird had a level of oversight of the injecting program , he was at a minimum actively interested and invested in it
it most likely had to get his support before it could take place

harking back to your question "What should he have done?"
Clearly he needed to do more , but more of what ?
 

daniel30

Tiger Superstar
Jun 14, 2010
2,461
3,037
The best candidate by a mail is Leppa cannot believe hasn't even got a mention.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,162
15,031
Are you sure about that?

Yes, all from ASADA evidence as described in this article.

Reid sent the letter to Hird and Hamilton, Hird sent texts telling Corcoran to bypass Reid to get the club "back on track". To be fair Reid was leaned on to give approval - for example on AOD- 8064 but was given more oversight of the program than he had previously. Hird also texted Corcoran saying they still needed to act within the rules - you can read this as maybe geniune or maybe an arse-covering exercise with a nod and a wink, you be the judge. Pretty clear Hird wanted to "catch up" to the other clubs.

"Hird also sent Corcoran a text message saying the club did not want to ''push the boundaries'' and needed ''to make sure we are doing everything we can within the rules. As the other clubs are a long way ahead of Reidy and us at the moment.''" nod nod wink wink

Point stands - Hird knew the program was on the edge, and didn't want Reid to interfere with it. Reid ended up being held culpable and banned as well - his subsequent death is a sour punctuation to the whole sorry affair, who knows how much the stress and guilt inflicted on him may have contributed to his demise.


By the way, I'm not saying Hird was the architect of all this or was the man who was at most fault for the whole debacle. He was just a major player who consciously enabled what was going on while pretending to remain at arms length when it was opportune to do so. The whole club's management at the time are culpable, and just blaming it on Dank is absurd.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users

jimbob

Tiger Superstar
Jul 20, 2008
2,042
1,563
Traralgon
He responds to Reid's letter by reiterating that everything they do must be approved by Dr Reid. He later says Reid is slowing things down and is frustrated and asks Corcoran to talk to him.

That's not directly instructing people to bypass Dr Reid by any stretch of the imagination.
Ummmmm…..so….why would Hird express frustration at the Club Doctor “slowing things down”? Reid’s letter, I thought was pretty clear that he thought this whole program was BS and was tinkering with what should not be. Yet Hird txts Corcoran e pressing his frustration. He didn’t go and have a chat with the Doc? Reid was the ONLY qualified person in the group. There is no doubt I won’t change your mind and similarly, you won’t change mine. I always respect everyone has their own opinion. That’s a god given right. There is a good chance that if we started this discussion in a pub at midday, we may still be going 24 hours later!

P.S your shout.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

RoarEmotion

Tiger Legend
Aug 20, 2005
5,120
6,826
He responds to Reid's letter by reiterating that everything they do must be approved by Dr Reid. He later says Reid is slowing things down and is frustrated and asks Corcoran to talk to him.

That's not directly instructing people to bypass Dr Reid by any stretch of the imagination.
If you ask someone to do something and don't check they have done it that is a failure of leadership. Trust but verify. 5 second text to Reid to check or a casual mention at any of their catch ups over player health - "how is the program going - have you been asked to approve everything?"

You don't do this on everything - but on critical things it's a must.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Willo

Tiger Legend
Oct 13, 2007
18,612
6,573
Aldinga Beach
He responds to Reid's letter by reiterating that everything they do must be approved by Dr Reid. He later says Reid is slowing things down and is frustrated and asks Corcoran to talk to him.

That's not directly instructing people to bypass Dr Reid by any stretch of the imagination.
Hmm I wonder why Doc Reid sent the letter to Hird and not others in the upper management.
Maybe Doc Reid knew Hird was into it up to his eyeballs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
Yes, all from ASADA evidence as described in this article.

Reid sent the letter to Hird and Hamilton, Hird sent texts telling Corcoran to bypass Reid to get the club "back on track". To be fair Reid was leaned on to give approval - for example on AOD- 8064 but was given more oversight of the program than he had previously. Hird also texted Corcoran saying they still needed to act within the rules - you can read this as maybe geniune or maybe an arse-covering exercise with a nod and a wink, you be the judge. Pretty clear Hird wanted to "catch up" to the other clubs.

"Hird also sent Corcoran a text message saying the club did not want to ''push the boundaries'' and needed ''to make sure we are doing everything we can within the rules. As the other clubs are a long way ahead of Reidy and us at the moment.''" nod nod wink wink

Point stands - Hird knew the program was on the edge, and didn't want Reid to interfere with it. Reid ended up being held culpable and banned as well - his subsequent death is a sour punctuation to the whole sorry affair, who knows how much the stress and guilt inflicted on him may have contributed to his demise.


By the way, I'm not saying Hird was the architect of all this or was the man who was at most fault for the whole debacle. He was just a major player who consciously enabled what was going on while pretending to remain at arms length when it was opportune to do so. The whole club's management at the time are culpable, and just blaming it on Dank is absurd.

I think that just shows how poisoned the water is around Hird. He doesn't try and bypass Reid, he asks a colleague to talk to him and use his 'United Nations' skills, ie negotiate an outcome.

He also says they don't want to push the boundaries and they need to stay inside the rules, but people don't take that at face value.

The reason he was wanting the program to run is pretty clear I think. He has these two bozos telling him this is cutting edge stuff and the other clubs are ahead of them and getting an advantage. They are also telling him Dr Reid isn't up to speed with this modern stuff and is just unsure because he doesn't understand it.

Like every elite coach, Hird is obsessed with success. So he is susceptible to being conned and trusts the wrong people. He thinks they are doing everything within the rules because he has repeatedly said that and trusts they will. He believes them when they tell him other clubs are miles ahead of them and they need to catch up and that this is so cutting edge the old man Dr doesn't understand it. He is frustrated when other teams are getting this advantage and his is not.

It all comes back to the real culpability here again. Why was Hird exposed to a situation where he could be manipulated by conmen and idiots? Because Robinson and Dank were employed with no due process. No reference checks, background checks or validation of qualifications. Because they weren't adequately supervised or managed by their superiors who also failed to ensure their compliance with critical aspects of their role such as record keeping.

The board, Robson, Hamilton, asleep at the wheel and leaving their club to be violated by incompetents.

Hird meanwhile is repeatedly stating things have to be done correctly, by the book and with Drs approval and most importantly inside the rules and yet he is the villain, even though those very same superiors fail to ensure Hird's wishes are acted on by staff they manage, as well as failing to act or respond to the same concerns.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

The Big Richo

Tiger Champion
Aug 19, 2010
3,154
5,024
The home of Dusty
If you ask someone to do something and don't check they have done it that is a failure of leadership. Trust but verify. 5 second text to Reid to check or a casual mention at any of their catch ups over player health - "how is the program going - have you been asked to approve everything?"

You don't do this on everything - but on critical things it's a must.

Don't forget Hird doesn't manage these people, Paul Hamilton does. He is the one that should be monitoring their performance and compliance with those directives.