Good post Taraba but Post hasnt had much opportunity, especially this year. He could change a few minds tomorrow, one way or the other
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Francis Jackson Era
- Thread starter taraba
- Start date
I know FJ didn't have a lot to beat (Beck, Miller), but the recruiting has improved markedly since he took over. I believe he's full time now, which also helps. I don't think he was initially, but things like that are why the FTF was started.
Tony Braxton-Hicks
There are no stupid ideas, just stupid people
Tony Braxton-Hicks said:
Correct.
As for the Rookie Draft, it has been slimmer pickings than we might like to think, overall and definately at RFC:
2006 Tas Clingan (0) Jake King (83). Others after Clingan included Clinton Jones (111), Sharrod Wellingham (84), Michael Jamison (84), Matt Suckling (44) Jarrod Harbrow (98) to name a few. 62 picks used, 28 never played a game.
2007 Clayton Collard (0) Jarrod Silvester (5) Tristan Cartledge (2) Cam Howat (1). To be fair the only other notable after Collard included Aaron Joseph (66). After Silvester came Nathan Grima (50) Jared Petrenko (49). After Cartledge came notably Shane Mumford (69) Pearce Hanley (49) Andrew McQualter (70) Ed Curnow (23) and maybe Brodie Martin (16) 59 picks used, 29 never played a game.
2008 Robin Nahas (70) David Gourdis (4) Andrew Browne (12) Alroy Gilligan (0) Good picks around Nahas included Jordie McKenzie (52) Jeff Garlett (69) Ricky Henderson (40) Zac Dawson (74) and Matt *smile* (68). After Gourdis came possibles like Luke Delaney (18) Chris Schmidt (18) Jarryd Blair (50) Liam Picken (80) Daniel Stewart (31). After Big Browne came only Luke Bruest (31) and Clancee Pearce (41). Thereafter Gilligan and a PASS came Jay VanBerlo (32) Lachlan Keefe (14) Greg Broughton (68) and Sam Jacobs (51) 74 picks used, 36 never played a game.
2009 Robert Hicks (3) Pat Contin (0) Relton Roberts (2) Nick Westhoff (0) Graham Polak (3) Jamie O’Reilly – international (4) Others after Hicks were Michael Barlow (37) Cam Hitchcock (32) Mitch Golby (21) and Luke Thompson (11). After Contin came Alex Silvagni (27) Andrew Strijk (11) Ben Howlett (54) Matthew Wright (31). After Roberts came Ashton Hams (26) Stewart Crameri (37) Matt Jaensch (33) James Podsiadly (54). After that, maybe Jesse Stringer (8) at a pinch. 57 picks used after eliminating GC’s first 5 and international, zone and scholarships, 25 never played a game.
2010 Ben Jakobi (0) Brad Miller (24) Tom Hislop (5). Others after Jakobi were Josh Jenkins (6) Dan Nicholson (16) Luke Dahlhaus (26). Nothing much after Miller except maybe Nick Lower (22). Again nothing much after Hislop except Ian Callinan (16) 68 picks used after eliminating GWS’s first 6, 45 never played a game yet. Still early days!
2011 Adam Maric (8) Ben Darrou (0) Steven Verrier (0) Gibson Turner (0) Piva Wright (0) 78 picks used 23 have played at least 1 game so far. Some notable are Horsley (9), Pfeiffer (11) Spurr (4) Tom Campbell (3) Dell’Olio (6) Marley Williams (6) Crisp (4) Magner (14) Sam Gibson (5) Pearce (15) Matt Austin (10). Very early days.
19 Picks in 5 years 2006-2010 (left out 2011 for obvious reasons).
Only 2 picks successful Nahas and King, unless you want to include Miller, which is probably fair. Reading though the above, the thing that struck me was how few a number of good options there were that were missed. The standouts in a perfect world would have been Mumford, Barlow, probably a Jamison and Suckling. Jacobs, Broughton, Crameri, Garlett and more recently Dahlhaus.
Adelaide and Fremantle seem to be the best users of it. Looking across the lists, really could only have expected maybe another two players of average to good quality when compared to even the best users. It's proving to be more a fortunate dip than a lucky dip, and it may well be where a critical advantage could be gained if somehow our quality of selections can be improved markedly. For example, had we identified Mumford, there may not have been the urgency to take Putt, Post, persist with Graham etc.
Take a lot of energy and resources to acheive a significant enough advantage I would think. Probably why the money and resources went into Blair Hartley I would think!
taraba said:
"not too shabby" isnt good enough! Look at our list, a few injuries and we have been badly exposed for depth. Decent recruting is ok for a top 4 club but we need to CATCH up and the only way to do that is to be hitting atleast 50% of our picks if not better.
Good post Rocklea, 09 and 10 were clearly bust years for the rookie draft.
Hang on. Rocklea just illustrated how slim the pickings are once you get into the late picks and you want at least a 50% hit rate? If you consider we've been having 8 to 10 picks every draft that's roughly a 100% success rate in the first 3 rounds and a 30% strike rate after that. You think that's realistic?
We have been poor users in the rookie draft. That cant be disputed.
FJ & his team definately need improve this area of our recruiting. Its letting us down.
His team has been OK to solid overall, but after 6 years in the job not good enough to bridge the gap to the competition leaders & the list is still very shallow of legimimate AFL players.
Thats right, in fact its impossible Nearly all games are on tape these days as well though.
Recruiting is about more than just one man. Its a decent sized operation & you need good people underneath you that can spot the right players & gather the right information to bring back.
But like anything in life the responsibility of a teams performance falls down the person that leads them.
FJ & his team definately need improve this area of our recruiting. Its letting us down.
His team has been OK to solid overall, but after 6 years in the job not good enough to bridge the gap to the competition leaders & the list is still very shallow of legimimate AFL players.
Disco08 said:
Thats right, in fact its impossible Nearly all games are on tape these days as well though.
Recruiting is about more than just one man. Its a decent sized operation & you need good people underneath you that can spot the right players & gather the right information to bring back.
But like anything in life the responsibility of a teams performance falls down the person that leads them.
I've mentioned it before but FJ has done a fantastic job with top-end picks but has an underwhelming record with picks beyond the second round. Clubs like Collingwood and Geelong have set the standard when it comes to late picks, and you could probably add Sydney to the list of clubs that have utilised their speculative picks to full effect.
I don't question FJ's ability to spot junior talent, but I would suggest his approach to the rookie draft has been too junior focused. Given our depth has been sorely tested this season, I would hope that we target more ready-made players in the future.
I don't question FJ's ability to spot junior talent, but I would suggest his approach to the rookie draft has been too junior focused. Given our depth has been sorely tested this season, I would hope that we target more ready-made players in the future.
Leysy Days said:
Absolutely. It'd be fair to assume Hartley's giving significant input into state league selections do you think? If so I think we really need to focus on the performance solely since Hartley came on board given he represents a major step towards having a decent recruiting setup which we obviously never had previously.
BBC said:
Our spending on recruitment has increased markedly over the last few years but I'm yet to be convinced that we have our strategy correct. The number of state league players overlooked has kept us treading water, meanwhile other clubs have created added depth to their playing lists. There may be an argument that our manpower is insufficient to adequately comb the WAFL, SANFL and QAFL, but there's simply no excuses for ignoring proven VFL players. It's no coincidence that some of our better late picks have been mature-agers - Tuck, Nahas and King being the standouts.
We've come along way with identifying quality fringe players and have been outstanding in nailing our early picks, it basically comes down to rolling the dice with the next Barlow, Zorko or Podsiadly (just to name a few). We're not far away from getting the balance right, but I would be disappointed if we replicated our last rookie draft and went for a carte-blanche youth policy.
bullus_hit said:
we did draft little Maric.
my only issue with recent drafting is the number of risky speculative picks we have taken, especially in 09, when we picked Griffiths, Dea, Taylor, Nason and Webberley- all risky picks for different reasons. then in '10 we added McDonald and Derickx, again both had risks attached (correct me if i am wrong but i think McDonald had some non-ability concerns prior to drafting). add these to prior picks like Putt, Connors, Peterson plus numerous rookie picks from left field.
in isolation none of these picks was wrong but i do wonder if we could have taken a few more 'safer' picks at times.
this did seem to change a but last year when we appeared to pick more solid picks thru all drafts.
Brodders17 said:
Little Maric is another example of trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, I don't mind recycled players but I'm highly sceptical of the practice of recycling delisted players. We've been burnt so many times I've lost count, I'd much rather take the punt on a state leaguer who's excelled at that level.
The other thing about some of those guys you've mentioned, is that their body types are high risk propositions. You can get away with a light frame if there's some exceptional skill set to work with, but for good ordinary footballers, it becomes a liability. When I look at some of the Magpies rookies, I can see there's a definite criteria when it comes to overall strength and conditioning. Having skinny runts in the rookie draft is a project too long IMO, unless there is a compelling case of extraordinary talent, I'd be steering well clear (ruckmen aside).
Jackson has already said in the interview with Richo that he's happy with the amount of resources he has at the moment and suggests that any more people just confuses the issue.
This would really only apply to the juniors one would think, but posters who continue to talk about expanding his recruiting team are working against the Recruitment Manager's plan.
The area of recruitment that could be expanded with no conflict may well be the mature aged area, which would be headed by Hartley. This could be a very good time to add to the area considering the advent of a stand alone team in the VFL and the possible shift of Hartley with more focus on free agents.
So there you go Leysy, FJ should only be judged on his record since 2010 draft (Hartley having joined after 2009 draft)
This would really only apply to the juniors one would think, but posters who continue to talk about expanding his recruiting team are working against the Recruitment Manager's plan.
The area of recruitment that could be expanded with no conflict may well be the mature aged area, which would be headed by Hartley. This could be a very good time to add to the area considering the advent of a stand alone team in the VFL and the possible shift of Hartley with more focus on free agents.
Leysy Days said:
Disco08 said:
So there you go Leysy, FJ should only be judged on his record since 2010 draft (Hartley having joined after 2009 draft)
RedanTiger said:
Already happening I think Redan, as suggested earlier on - the overall benefits of the Rookie Draft appears overrated based on youth alone.
RedanTiger said:
Why would you judge him on 2006-2008 when Wallet was still having his way and the recruiting department was understaffed? At best I think it's obvious his influence was limited to the picks used on kids. I doubt he would have said at the time "yeah Greg, reckon you should trade 19 for Jordy and use all our rookie picks on older blokes too. I only need 4 picks overall to do some damage mate".
FWIW, in those years his record should be:
2006: 1 Reiwoldt (A), 2 Edwards (C), 4 Connors (D), 4 Peterson (D), 5 Collins (C) and possibly R2 King (A).
2007: 1 Cotchin (A), 1 Rance (B), 4 Putt (D), PS Gourdis (D)
2008: 1 Vickery (B), 2 Post (D), R3 Browne (C), R4 Gilligan (D)
So in summary, no wasted first round picks and overall 8 players still contributing, 1 still developing and 5 gone. Add in another A with a second rounder too if you're prepared to admit he would have taken SSelwood with 19 in 07.
2009 was even better: 1 Martin (B), 2 Griffiths (B), 3 Astbury (C), 3 Dea (C), 4 Taylor (D), 5 Webberley (D), 5 Nason (D), PS Grimey (A), R1-4 Hicks, Contin, Roberts & Westhoff (all D) - 5 still contributing/developing and 7 misses. Not a good strike rate but 3 potential key players including the inspired Grimey pick and although it was a poor rookie draft he wasn't on his own there. For every Barlow (well done on picking him BTW), Silvagni and Hams there are plenty long gone. Perhaps if he had someone like Hartley helping at the time we might have identified one of those guys too.
I reckon I'm safe in guessing that his record for those four years would hold up pretty well in comparison. Then finally we recognise the need for more expertise so it seems to be most relevant to see how he can go when allowed to concentrate on picking kids while Hartley takes care of the mature picks. Perhaps when allowed to focus solely on the juniors he can find a gem or two later on to go with his very solid picking in the earlier rounds. Unfortunately for those who want to bag him we'll really only get a clear picture of his performance since Hartley arrived in a couple of years. So far though it seems all the first and second rounders have something to offer and most if not all the later picks except McDonald have some worthwhile attributes also. Lets say Conca, Ellis and Batchelor all make it and 4 of Helbig, Elton, Arnot, O'Hanlon, Verrier Darrou, Wright and Turner become valuable players too. How would you rate his performance then?
Rocklea Tiger said:
Great post Rocky. Makes for depressing reading when it's spelled out in black and white.
Clearly lots of room for improvement at the all important back end of the draft.
To gain the odd diamond in the rough makes things that much easier but we've come up short more often than not the past few years.
Our lack of depth is clearly linked to the lack of talent coming through later in the draft.
But I am not totally convinced that FJ wears that much of the blame.
He has drafted players with enough talent, we just haven't got the best out of them. For a number of these picks, we could not handle the off field issues the player had.
The moral of the story is that for a club with limited financial means, we have to realise that we do not have the capacity to deal with too many players who play hard off the feild. I believe our player development and welfare areas still have some way to go.
We need to draft some solid citizens for depth. Go out and find the next Foley, a kid who would do anything for a chance. Or Barlow for that matter.
I thought we did well in this regard in the last draft. We need to keep it going.
But I am not totally convinced that FJ wears that much of the blame.
He has drafted players with enough talent, we just haven't got the best out of them. For a number of these picks, we could not handle the off field issues the player had.
The moral of the story is that for a club with limited financial means, we have to realise that we do not have the capacity to deal with too many players who play hard off the feild. I believe our player development and welfare areas still have some way to go.
We need to draft some solid citizens for depth. Go out and find the next Foley, a kid who would do anything for a chance. Or Barlow for that matter.
I thought we did well in this regard in the last draft. We need to keep it going.
