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Kamdyn McIntosh

MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
3,979
630
Jazz, Ellis is an unbelievable runner and was a big reason we slowed teams down when they tried to counter. His defensive running is unheralded outside the club.

none of these guys you mention could do what Ellis did for us.

KMac could and he’s down. Naish potentially can but will need time and some senior exposure.

I think you will find that Naish is on that wing against Collingwood in early March.

stack? He’ll find a place but if you think it’s in the Ellis role you’re in la la land.
I didn't say Stack would play the Ellis role but I reckon Stack could play anywhere (even ruck). Houli could play the role easily and better than Ellis did (but you lose that defensive linkman). Short has the same lack of run with the flight ability Ellis had so could see him playing the role.

Ellis was borderline best 22, he is eminently replaceable as indicated in his interview recently - he was told he would not be renewed in 2020 halfway through 2019. That's not a vital cog right there.

WIll Naish play in a practice match - likely. Will he be best 22 this year if no injuries? No chance. Zero, zip.

Oh, and you are so wrong on Baker, he will not be dropped. He will be top 10 B&F this year, the kid is a bona fide future gun.
 

Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,162
501
I didn't say Stack would play the Ellis role but I reckon Stack could play anywhere (even ruck). Houli could play the role easily and better than Ellis did (but you lose that defensive linkman). Short has the same lack of run with the flight ability Ellis had so could see him playing the role.

Ellis was borderline best 22, he is eminently replaceable as indicated in his interview recently - he was told he would not be renewed in 2020 halfway through 2019. That's not a vital cog right there.

WIll Naish play in a practice match - likely. Will he be best 22 this year if no injuries? No chance. Zero, zip.

Oh, and you are so wrong on Baker, he will not be dropped. He will be top 10 B&F this year, the kid is a bona fide future gun.
love baker. Will play a ton of games for us. Stack will go back and something’s gotta give.

bakes won’t be top 10, you’re on the meth.

stack comes in regardless, no one said he wouldn’t.

and you underestimate Ellis.

for a guy who was told he was expendable halfway through the season, we clearly valued him enough to take him into a second grand final when we had a reasonably injury free list.

he’s worth more than we can pay, simples

and finally, no one said Naish is best 22. I said he will feature heavily in our pre season games.

by the end of the season, who knows?
 

The Big Richo

Moderator
Aug 19, 2010
1,773
1,115
The home of Dusty
Stack definitely won't play the Ellis role, unless he drastically changes his body shape. (Someone did mention he was down a lot of weight)

Those outlet guys cover huge kms at high effort, they need to be lean, low body fat %, rangy types. Think Ellis, McIntosh, the Hills, Isaac Smith, Whitfield etc, etc........

You might play one wing as a different type like we did with Caddy but you have to have one of those types to provide the connection all teams need.
 
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Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,162
501
Stack definitely won't play the Ellis role, unless he drastically changes his body shape. (Someone did mention he was down a lot of weight)

Those outlet guys cover huge kms at high effort, they need to be lean, low body fat %, rangy types. Think Ellis, McIntosh, the Hills, Isaac Smith, Whitfield etc, etc........

You might play one wing as a different type like we did with Caddy but you have to have one of those types to provide the connection all teams need.
Correct weight
 

MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
3,979
630
and you underestimate Ellis.

for a guy who was told he was expendable halfway through the season, we clearly valued him enough to take him into a second grand final when we had a reasonably injury free list.
No, the club got rid of him, told him he would not be renewed. This club doesn't do knee-jerk, Ellis was seen as replaceable not vital. They will have a plan for the wing and I'm tipping it aint Naish in 2020.
 

The Big Richo

Moderator
Aug 19, 2010
1,773
1,115
The home of Dusty
No, the club got rid of him, told him he would not be renewed. This club doesn't do knee-jerk, Ellis was seen as replaceable not vital. They will have a plan for the wing and I'm tipping it aint Naish in 2020.
I think Ellis was a victim of circumstances.

He had a couple of good seasons and came out of contract as our best young outside midfielder and with expansion clubs cashed up, putting himself in the box seat for a lucrative long term deal.

For whatever reason his footy didn't reach the level it looked like at that stage, so when this deal came around he was only offered standard money.

Like anyone in the second half of their career, he wasn't keen for his pay to go backwards, especially when others were prepared to continue that pay scale.

I have no doubt that has Ellis signed a lesser deal the first time then he would have been offered a satisfactory deal this time around and would still be with us.
 

Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,162
501
No, the club got rid of him, told him he would not be renewed. This club doesn't do knee-jerk, Ellis was seen as replaceable not vital. They will have a plan for the wing and I'm tipping it aint Naish in 2020.
Thanks genius.

If you don’t think the club hopes Naish can eventually take the wing then you are more clueless than I thought.

no one is saying round 1 or even regular 22.

but he will get games and it will be on the wing.
 

tigerlove

Tiger Legend
Aug 9, 2014
12,160
1,402
KMac was in line for the Ellis spot. Now he’s down, guys like Naish will be given an opportunity to shine in the role.
.
Doubt it. KMac was pushing a battle up hill. Ellis role was over rated, that's why Tigers had no qualms letting him go. An uphill battle for KMac now. Doubt we'll see him again with the plethora of young talent in the wings. Prestia, Edwards, even Cotchin have taken on wing roles before. If someone like Ross or RCD comes in and performs well it opens up other midfielders to be used more outside. Quite a few options and opportunity for youngsters now.
 

UKTiger

Tiger Champion
Jul 11, 2010
4,651
535
Shipston on Stour, UK
I reckon KMac could get back into the firsts if he listens to the coaches and tweaks his playing style on the wing a little. He will never be a star but his tank and ability to cover the ground to team orders is invaluable to our game plan
 

eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
11,425
2,421
Yeah I never really thought of Brando as a space invader, Like Kmac.

I had a bit of a blind spot, probably cause he didnt shove blokes.

But he was. Brando was a space invader.

He'll need to be more for GC to get their moneys worth, and I think he will be.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Superstar
Dec 11, 2017
1,554
963
Melbourne
Ellis brought his strengths (running, big tank, cutting off opposition options etc) to his role on the wing. We bring another player in to that position the role changes slightly to suit the strengths of whoever ends up on the wing. Caddy brings a different set of skills (yep, he can run, but one thing I always notice with Caddy is how much he is in the face of the opposition) and plays the position differently. Yes, you need the player to be able to play the particular position, but each player does it a bit differently.

DS
 
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Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
4,162
501
Ellis brought his strengths (running, big tank, cutting off opposition options etc) to his role on the wing. We bring another player in to that position the role changes slightly to suit the strengths of whoever ends up on the wing. Caddy brings a different set of skills (yep, he can run, but one thing I always notice with Caddy is how much he is in the face of the opposition) and plays the position differently. Yes, you need the player to be able to play the particular position, but each player does it a bit differently.

DS
Well argued David, but the way we play, committing blokes forward of the contest seconds before we’ve won it, means other blokes need to run super hard to fill defensive holes. You often need to make long runs again and again just to reach that fat side and prevent the counter switch.

folks thinking the Ellis case was a simple matter of us telling him he was surplus is plain wrong. Ellis knew how valuable he was to Dimma and co, hence his shock. Hence his certain inclusion in the premiership team.

the decision was a list management one and the right one. We as a club are in the unique position of letting blokes fulfil their market potential without rancor or bitterness. other clubs might’ve insisted on a pay cut or been spooked into paying market rate and losing someone younger and with more long term potential.

we knew we had to let him go, but in a perfect world he stays. The guy just got another medal, FFS. Not like he was languishing in the VFL.

with 666 potentially looming as a constant setup during games, the Ellis role will be even more critical. Those spaces on the wings will only get bigger and you need the right bodies (and lungs) in there.

people raise caddy as a counter argument but he is a thin side winger. Big bodied, great aerialist, likes contact and traffic.

if you look at our list, guys like Naish leap out as potential fat side wingers, the kind our system relies on. Whether he ends up with the tank and application Ellis had is another matter. But he looks to fit the mold so far. He’ll get a clutch of games. Doesn’t need to breakout just yet.

I agree a flexible, adaptable list is a good thing.

but the requirements of that fat side role ain’t gonna change.
 
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The Big Richo

Moderator
Aug 19, 2010
1,773
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The home of Dusty
Without wanting to go all Club 80, I think the role Ellis played is an example of spectators not understanding some of the aspects of the game that are not easily spotted from the outside.

If you don't have access to the Club's Champion Data package then it is hard to get a handle on just how important the coverage and repeat effort running someone like Ellis provides. It is the easiest thing to do in football but also the hardest.

I'm certain we would have retained Ellis if we could have and I'm equally certain plenty of thought will be going into who we find to provide that running this season.
 
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tigerlove

Tiger Legend
Aug 9, 2014
12,160
1,402
Disposal wise, Ellis's last 4 games were in his worst 6 or 7 games of the year. Grand final was the lowest. Had just 2 and 1 contested possies in two of the last 3 games. Sure that's not what it's all about but he's replaceable by someone who may have a little less running capacity but better decision-making and disposal skills. Caddy proved that with his smarts. Ellis isn't a bad player, he starts top 22 in most teams but clearly the Tigers saw that there are alternatives in prospective youngsters looking forward and I agree. Not quite ready in 2019 but 2020 imo was always going to be a pressure season for Ellis to maintain his spot. At the salary and timeframe he was being offered it was a pretty black and white decision I think.
 
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Smoking Aces

Batten Down The Hatches
Sep 21, 2007
12,243
595
Jazz was wrong.

rioli - no. Dimma is on record as saying he prefers Dan on the forward flank.

pickett -a natural born rover. Wasted as a link man and defensive runner.

Houli - far, far better behind the ball running in straight lines. We need him down back.

short - see Houli. Does not like to run back with flight. Not suited to long two way running.

balta - will be groomed as a key position back to take load off Astbury and grub.

stack - best 22, and my gut feel is he will replace baker (who’s been awesome)

KMac was in line for the Ellis spot. Now he’s down, guys like Naish will be given an opportunity to shine in the role.

we don’t shoehorn guys where they don’t quite fit. We play them to their strengths.
You forgot Naish or even Turner. They have done their apprenticeship in the twos playing on a wing.