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Kamdyn McIntosh

tigerlove

Tiger Legend
Aug 9, 2014
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The thing is that the running of the likes of Ellis and Broad allow players like Caddy and Martin and Houli to play the way we want them to play.
Disagree on that. Tigers had Caddy in the reserves learning his new position and he came in and nailed it. Very little, if anything to do with Ellis on the other wing. Just had to have a look at the grand final to see this; Caddy 19 disposals, 8 marks,6 tackles, 6 inside 50s, 3 clearances, 2 goal assists. Ellis 11 disposals, 1 mark, 0 tackles, 1 inside 50, 1 clerarance, 0 goal assists. Clearly showed whilst one is running up and down exhausting themselves, the other is getting to where they need to be to enact the disciplined acts that win you games of footy in finals. The cream comes to the top when it matters. As stated before, Ellis is a top 22 player in most teams but at the Tigers was replaceable and that's what we've chosen to do, replace him.

As for Martin, I really think you're drawing a long bow to suggest what he does on the ground has anything to do whatsoever with the likes of Ellis or Broad or pretty much any player for that matter. Broad and Houli there's is definitely an argument for.
 
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The Big Richo

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Aug 19, 2010
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The home of Dusty
Disagree on that. Tigers had Caddy in the reserves learning his new position and he came in and nailed it. Very little, if anything to do with Ellis on the other wing. Just had to have a look at the grand final to see this; Caddy 19 disposals, 8 marks,6 tackles, 6 inside 50s, 3 clearances, 2 goal assists. Ellis 11 disposals, 1 mark, 0 tackles, 1 inside 50, 1 clerarance, 0 goal assists. Clearly showed whilst one is running up and down exhausting themselves, the other is getting to where they need to be to enact the disciplined acts that win you games of footy in finals. The cream comes to the top when it matters. As stated before, Ellis is a top 22 player in most teams but at the Tigers was replaceable and that's what we've chosen to do, replace him.

As for Martin, I really think you're drawing a long bow to suggest what he does on the ground has anything to do whatsoever with the likes of Ellis or Broad or pretty much any player for that matter. Broad and Houli there's is definitely an argument for.
There's no depth to that statistical analysis though TL. When Caddy was able to connect for those 6 inside 50s, who was providing defensive cover to allow him to break? Who had the defensive outlet covered when he went forward?
When he won clearances who was covering so he could be on outlet? Was he freed up to be plus 1? That's the type of info you need to assess an impact.

In terms of Dustin, when he slips forward off a contest who do you think gives him the defensive cover? Who takes his man when he tries to draw him into areas we don't want him in? The worker bees like Ellis. They allow the likes of Martin to play their way by doing the stuff that reduces their effectiveness.
 
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MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
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I'm not saying Ellis is critical, I'm saying his role is and it will need to be filled by someone who can run high intensity 14-16kms each week.

That will only come from a certain body type, a lean, rangy type like a McIntosh or Markov.

As for why Ellis left, as I said I think it is mostly about money, not because we wouldn't have liked to keep him.

What would have gone down is early last year the RFC would have had informal talks with his manager. They will have said he is on top 10 money at the moment, we see him as being only worth 15-30 money and probably under that because of the success tax.
His management will have taken it to him and tested the market, found interest and decided not to take a huge pay cut on what is likely his last major contract. Hence by the mid-year the RFC knows what he is looking for and they tell him there is no way forward at the club for him.
Don't make things up TBR. This from a recent interview: (there was clearly no or very little negotiation involved)

The midfielder admitted it was tough being told he was no longer required by the Tigers halfway through last season.
However, Ellis holds nothing against his former club.
“I was pretty shaken up and upset when I was told,” Ellis told the Gold Coast Bulletin.
“But it’s a business at the end of the day and these sorts of things happen.
“I have no bad blood with Richmond at all. I love them, they have given me this opportunity and shown me this new life.
“They took me as an 18-year-old and set me up and made me the person I am today so I can’t thank them enough.”
 

Quickdraw

End of the drought
Jun 8, 2013
962
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Assuming he can get over his injury pretty quickly, I'm hopeful that Kmac can find form and get back in the seniors. He has a good tank. Not as big as Ellis but very few do.

But he has a strong frame and a bit of mongrel. I like that. We need Peak Mongrel this year. It's going to be a year of everyone's against us, so we might as well seek peak unsociable football.

Caddy has it. Lynch has it. Kmac has it. And the Skipper hurts ém through his kamikaze actions.
 
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TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
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Assuming he can get over his injury pretty quickly, I'm hopeful that Kmac can find form and get back in the seniors. He has a good tank. Not as big as Ellis but very few do.

But he has a strong frame and a bit of mongrel. I like that. We need Peak Mongrel this year. It's going to be a year of everyone's against us, so we might as well seek peak unsociable football.

Caddy has it. Lynch has it. Kmac has it. And the Skipper hurts ém through his kamikaze actions.
Ya left out the Grubster n Flossy, both masters of the hard nut, unsociable pain infliction.
 
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The Big Richo

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Aug 19, 2010
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Don't make things up TBR. This from a recent interview: (there was clearly no or very little negotiation involved)
You can believe whatever you like but I'm pretty certain the sought of club/player interaction you are suggesting hasn't happened for the best part of thirty years. Agents are in constant conversation with clubs about this stuff, that's why they pay them 3%.

I'm very confident the comments from Ellis would refer to when he was told RFC would not get anywhere near terms likely to satisfy him.
 

The_General

Brain washing the kids, one stuffed toy at a time
May 4, 2004
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There was *definitely* conversation between the club and Brandon, particularly early in the pre-season. He decided to try his luck with free agency, and his agent got some very decent nibbles. The club was never in a position to match them, and had held the line pretty consistently about accepting less to stay part of a premiership squad.

He got a godfather deal with GC. End of story.
 
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UKTiger

Tiger Champion
Jul 11, 2010
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Shipston on Stour, UK
Assuming he can get over his injury pretty quickly, I'm hopeful that Kmac can find form and get back in the seniors. He has a good tank. Not as big as Ellis but very few do.

But he has a strong frame and a bit of mongrel. I like that. We need Peak Mongrel this year. It's going to be a year of everyone's against us, so we might as well seek peak unsociable football.

Caddy has it. Lynch has it. Kmac has it. And the Skipper hurts ém through his kamikaze actions.
Yep. KMac's future at the Tigers is in his own hands. If he wants it bad enough then he will succeed
 
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MD Jazz

Tiger Champion
Feb 3, 2017
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Yep. KMac's future at the Tigers is in his own hands. If he wants it bad enough then he will succeed
I wouldn't ever question KMac's desire - works as hard as any player on the list. If he doesn't make it back it will not be because he did not want it badly enough.
 

tigerlove

Tiger Legend
Aug 9, 2014
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There's no depth to that statistical analysis though TL. When Caddy was able to connect for those 6 inside 50s, who was providing defensive cover to allow him to break? Who had the defensive outlet covered when he went forward?
When he won clearances who was covering so he could be on outlet? Was he freed up to be plus 1? That's the type of info you need to assess an impact.

In terms of Dustin, when he slips forward off a contest who do you think gives him the defensive cover? Who takes his man when he tries to draw him into areas we don't want him in? The worker bees like Ellis. They allow the likes of Martin to play their way by doing the stuff that reduces their effectiveness.
I think this is a general team defensive effort that allows the likes of Martin to be more attacking. That's what we're good at and that includes the majority of our backmen and the midfield. i don't think it stops with players like Ellis. I think that is one of Ellis's weaknesses. He failed when he was trialled as a backman. He loses many one on one ground contests. Ellis is in best flight when he's making space, linking up and getting some ball. Simply if Ellis isn't getting any D50 disposals I can't see how it is he who is covering someone like Caddy on the opposite wing. Ellis is probably one of the last players I'd set up as purely defensive. I believe it's quite easy to find depth in the stats analysis and from game day. \\I agree with you, at the end of the day, the offer for Ellis was too good for him to refuse and the Tigers were never going to match anywhere near that. I still think 2020 is the year Ellis would have felt immense pressure for his spot.
 
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tigerlove

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Aug 9, 2014
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Report today says KMac is running 90-95% now, unlikely for Marsh Series 1, but Wagga game a real possibility. We're very close to full strength for this time of year. Jack Grahanm and Toby likely for Wagge as well. Bolton available.
 
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Dont Argue

Tiger Superstar
Jun 26, 2018
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Report today says KMac is running 90-95% now, unlikely for Marsh Series 1, but Wagga game a real possibility.
Kamdyn now strongest at the club ( since Rance retired ) Looking forward to making his mark and is training like a man with something to prove
 
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tigerdell

Hope springs infernal
Mar 29, 2014
951
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Disagree on that. Tigers had Caddy in the reserves learning his new position and he came in and nailed it. Very little, if anything to do with Ellis on the other wing. Just had to have a look at the grand final to see this; Caddy 19 disposals, 8 marks,6 tackles, 6 inside 50s, 3 clearances, 2 goal assists. Ellis 11 disposals, 1 mark, 0 tackles, 1 inside 50, 1 clerarance, 0 goal assists. Clearly showed whilst one is running up and down exhausting themselves, the other is getting to where they need to be to enact the disciplined acts that win you games of footy in finals. The cream comes to the top when it matters. As stated before, Ellis is a top 22 player in most teams but at the Tigers was replaceable and that's what we've chosen to do, replace him.

As for Martin, I really think you're drawing a long bow to suggest what he does on the ground has anything to do whatsoever with the likes of Ellis or Broad or pretty much any player for that matter. Broad and Houli there's is definitely an argument for.
My take when talking defensive/two way running is to look at the opposition game and not at our possession numbers.
This is especially true for the wings, half forwards like Rioli, and HBF like Broad.

It was evident since 2017 finals when commentators noted that the oppo were not transferring play, not switching, not being adventurous or creative across the ground.
Every finals match the same comment is heard in the 2nd Q.
They look inboard and then kick down the line and the goals dry up.
For sure this is a team activity and not just one player. But the wingers in KMac and Ellis have played a huge part in this.

I'm guessing there would be chump data stats for 'switch of play in D50 and switch of play in centre'. And it would be a cliff edge for teams that play us in finals.
 
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tigerlove

Tiger Legend
Aug 9, 2014
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My take when talking defensive/two way running is to look at the opposition game and not at our possession numbers.
This is especially true for the wings, half forwards like Rioli, and HBF like Broad.

It was evident since 2017 finals when commentators noted that the oppo were not transferring play, not switching, not being adventurous or creative across the ground.
Every finals match the same comment is heard in the 2nd Q.
They look inboard and then kick down the line and the goals dry up.
For sure this is a team activity and not just one player. But the wingers in KMac and Ellis have played a huge part in this.

I'm guessing there would be chump data stats for 'switch of play in D50 and switch of play in centre'. And it would be a cliff edge for teams that play us in finals.
I agree it's not all about possession numbers. However you don't need to be a gut runner to get into the right places to prevent transferring of play and switching. The only way you can really do this successfully is by all players working together to prevent it otherwise you get the overlap anyway with that Ellis type in no-mans land. One player does not make the difference. I'd argue the ability to get to a space quickly is more important and that often comes with being able to predict the play and be lightning fast (which many Tigers are). Then once you are there if the ball comes your way, the ability to defend punch, tackle, take a saving mark is imperative. Ellis is not really good at any of this. In the last 4 rounds Ellis had 4 of his 7 worst disposal games for the season. He had just 7 tackles. Only 15 contested possessions and only 13 intercepts (7 for 3 of those games).

If you're going to be that player who predominantly blocks space you still need to deliver when it's your turn. Again this is why I don't think the Tigers were too fussed about letting Ellis go. There's plenty of young talent coming through who might not have the gut-running ability of Ellis but can still block spaces but have far more skill. Caddy proved this. I still think Ellis's best games was when he played outside and did get quite a lot of the ball as a link player. Defensively he's just not good. He should do OK at Gold Coast.
 
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tigerdell

Hope springs infernal
Mar 29, 2014
951
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fair point TLove. I disagree on the value of Ellis, and your perception of the role of the wide wingman in general - happy to agree to disagree.

And although team results cannot be judged on one individual, the tigers have developed a system that drastically reduces the opposition switches.
And in the GF the stars of Whitfield and Kelly were completed useless. It wasnt all Ellis but kudos for him to play his role. I dont really care that he had 4 kicks if every GWS player was beaten to a man, and we won the game.
I see Ellis as being a significant part of what we achieved 2017 - 19.

We can and will replace him. At a minimum its a defensive role. But wouldnt it be great if it was also a gun - an attacking star to slice up the opposition and kick 2 goals a match!
 
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caesar

Tiger Champion
Feb 9, 2015
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I agree it's not all about possession numbers. However you don't need to be a gut runner to get into the right places to prevent transferring of play and switching. The only way you can really do this successfully is by all players working together to prevent it otherwise you get the overlap anyway with that Ellis type in no-mans land. One player does not make the difference. I'd argue the ability to get to a space quickly is more important and that often comes with being able to predict the play and be lightning fast (which many Tigers are). Then once you are there if the ball comes your way, the ability to defend punch, tackle, take a saving mark is imperative. Ellis is not really good at any of this. In the last 4 rounds Ellis had 4 of his 7 worst disposal games for the season. He had just 7 tackles. Only 15 contested possessions and only 13 intercepts (7 for 3 of those games).

If you're going to be that player who predominantly blocks space you still need to deliver when it's your turn. Again this is why I don't think the Tigers were too fussed about letting Ellis go. There's plenty of young talent coming through who might not have the gut-running ability of Ellis but can still block spaces but have far more skill. Caddy proved this. I still think Ellis's best games was when he played outside and did get quite a lot of the ball as a link player. Defensively he's just not good. He should do OK at Gold Coast.
 

caesar

Tiger Champion
Feb 9, 2015
3,310
1,977
I agree it's not all about possession numbers. However you don't need to be a gut runner to get into the right places to prevent transferring of play and switching. The only way you can really do this successfully is by all players working together to prevent it otherwise you get the overlap anyway with that Ellis type in no-mans land. One player does not make the difference. I'd argue the ability to get to a space quickly is more important and that often comes with being able to predict the play and be lightning fast (which many Tigers are). Then once you are there if the ball comes your way, the ability to defend punch, tackle, take a saving mark is imperative. Ellis is not really good at any of this. In the last 4 rounds Ellis had 4 of his 7 worst disposal games for the season. He had just 7 tackles. Only 15 contested possessions and only 13 intercepts (7 for 3 of those games).

If you're going to be that player who predominantly blocks space you still need to deliver when it's your turn. Again this is why I don't think the Tigers were too fussed about letting Ellis go. There's plenty of young talent coming through who might not have the gut-running ability of Ellis but can still block spaces but have far more skill. Caddy proved this. I still think Ellis's best games was when he played outside and did get quite a lot of the ball as a link player. Defensively he's just not good. He should do OK at Gold Coast.
t'love & t'del there have been a few names thrown up as possible BEllis's wing replacement, Naish, KMac Turner Shai but there could be a surprise candidate, (not yet in your thoughts), that could be a star in this role in a couple of years.
At a function during the week it was mentioned that Hugo RalphSmith is one of the most gifted runners ever to walk, (or should I say run), in Punt Road's doors.
As has been discussed an ideal RFC wingman seems to be one that can fold back and help out defence as well as attack as Caddy Kmac, and in disagreement with t'love, BEllis does even if he had deficiencies .
Anyway back to Hugo already has the forward craft and has trained there for the majority of pre-season, interesting he played back in the Intra club, could this just be giving him an education in the defensive side of the game for a greater purpose?
Another player with multi position possibilities :) .


A few notes from AFL Draft Central


STRENGTHS:

X-Factor
Vertical leap
Speed
Work rate
Clean hands

"he can also play on a wing where he likes to run and carry and he is very hard to stop once he gets on his bike and he can glide across the ground effortlessly. Ralphsmith was a strong performer at the combine testing well for speed and leap but it was his 2km time that really impressed and showed his ability to push hard which will be required at the next level whether as a dashing wingman or hybrid forward, to go with the speed and work rate he also has clean hands and rarely fumbles even under pressure which is a great trait to have as a forward especially where there is a lot of pressure to be clean and make the most of your opportunities. If he puts everything together Ralphsmith can be a match winner at AFL level".

"Ralphsmith certainly looks good with ball in hand and he gets most of his possession up the ground as a wingman playing an outside role and although his contested numbers are solid for his position it is always something that could improve as he has great hands and speed which could be utilised at stoppages more if he can refine his ability to win the contested ball but he is just so damaging on the outside that its really not a major issue at this stage"
 
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Baron Samedi

Tiger Champion
Apr 20, 2016
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Most folks will remember when Ellis got a free on the boundary line in the forward pocket, can’t remember if it was the PF or GF.

He flat out didn’t know what to do with it. Left, right, banana, he was all at sea.

It confirmed to me that he’s had pretty much every offensive instinct coached out of him. Unlike most on the list.

This just underlines how important his defensive role was. He seems an anxious character who likes to keep things simple. Dimma and clearly identified his main strength and had him play his one wood with metronomic regularity.

Our club is the epitome of moneyball, not so much in recruiting but in compartmentalised coaching. Know your part in the machine and the rest will look after itself.

And so it is with KMac. I’m looking forward to seeing him patrolling the fat side cos you can bet that’ll be his main gig.
 
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Scoop

Tiger Legend
Dec 8, 2004
19,811
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Most folks will remember when Ellis got a free on the boundary line in the forward pocket, can’t remember if it was the PF or GF.

He flat out didn’t know what to do with it. Left, right, banana, he was all at sea.

It confirmed to me that he’s had pretty much every offensive instinct coached out of him. Unlike most on the list.

This just underlines how important his defensive role was. He seems an anxious character who likes to keep things simple. Dimma and clearly identified his main strength and had him play his one wood with metronomic regularity.

Our club is the epitome of moneyball, not so much in recruiting but in compartmentalised coaching. Know your part in the machine and the rest will look after itself.

And so it is with KMac. I’m looking forward to seeing him patrolling the fat side cos you can bet that’ll be his main gig.
Unless we have major injuries he won’t play. The over under on games played is 6.5 for me.