Palestine and Israel

[Willo]

No, Israel shot any solution in the arse decades ago, which is why the only solution is for the rest of the world to impose a settlement. Israel has been kicking the can down the road for decades and show no sign of doing anything else. Fatah could sit down and negotiate with Israel, but they will get nowhere because Israel does not want a negotiated settlement, they want what Netanyahu had on his map at the UN in September last year - the lot.

DS

So Fatah could sit down and negotiate with Israel. For what the West Bank? Which and what do they negotiate for? Area A, Area B or Area C? Those Areas were already discussed and responsibility allocated to the PA and Israel for those areas.

Now to Gaza. Israel would never sit down with Hamas nor Hamas sit down with Israel. Hamas Covenant among other things seeks to totally destroy Israel, to eradicate every Jew from the land of Palestine…

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

How do you ever negotiate anything with that?

But once again, in you eyes, it Israel’s fault. That Palestinians can’t first get their house in order. .
It’s called, being responsible for your own actions. Or lack thereof. If you want to be the “perenial victim” you complain and do nothing for 75 years. You rely on aid and $billions every year. You shake your fist to the sky and complain. You then commit atrocities. Then complain.
I’ll get the same oold drivel. “They’re locked up” ”they’re in an open air ghetto” ”they're blockaded” . So for 75 years every Palestinian
has been locked up? I don’t think. Plenty have emigrated.

What could they have done…..
Appeal to a Muslim Coalition ie Saudi, Egypt, Tunisia, The Gulf States, Algeria to oversee fair and democratic elections.
To ensure One governing party for one people.
Then in conjunction with a Coalition of Muslim states (see above) sit dow; and negotiate with Israel.

But unfortunately there are too many who want power in their own hands at the expense of the ”everyday” Palestinian.
Some want money and all the rich trappings. See Hamas leaders in Qatar
Some want power over everyone in sight . See Hamas in Gaza.
Some just want to exercise death and destruction on Israel whatever thoe cost. See Hamas in Gaza.
Some don’t give a *smile* about any deaths or injuries they cause to their own people. See Hamas in Gaza.
Some just like the feeling of power at any expense to others. see Hamas in Gaza.

 

[Sintiger]

And in an interview with a US Senator...

Of course claims that UNRWA is somehow a proxy for Hamas is a lie. It has always been a lie.
Apart from anything else there are 13,000 UNRWA employees in Gaza and the allegations were about a few of them.
The fact that UNRWA exists is an acknowledgement that Palestinians are refugees.( Its official name is United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East). It was set up to deal with Palestinian refugees following the 1948 NAQBA.
Israel does not want any acknowledgement that Palestinians are refugees and has been trying to discredit UNRWA for a long time.

 

[Willo]

Oh, ok, that's your logic. Cause and effect: if Israel hadn't occupied Gaza, arrested people without charge, bulldozed peoples' houses, created one great big ghetto and controlled what could go in and out of the territory, chucked Palestinians off their land, etc, etc, etc - then Hamas would have had no reason to attack Israel.

Yes. Cause and effect. Using your logic go back further again.
If arabs had accepted the original UN 2 state plan for Palestine and Israel in 1947
If arab states and the Palestinians decided not to try to eradicate Israel in 1948.,
If the Arab states and the Palestinians tried not to eradicate Israel in 1967
If the Arab states and the Palestinians tried not to eradicate Israel in 1973

We can all pick a time and place and circumstances that suit us.

You continue to argue cause and effect for Israel's actions but cannot see that there was a cause for Hamas' actions.

There is no way to justify what Hamas did. No cause is worth that. No cause would achieve anything by that.

What Hamas did was reprehensible, but the Palestinians were getting ignored and getting nowhere in trying to get some sort of resolution, Israel certainly weren't interested in any resolution, so what should the Palestinians have done?

As I said previously. Get their own house in order to start with.
Get the Gulf States, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Or those states that have signed the Abraham Accords! involved. To form a “United Arab Conclave“, call it what you like. To ensure security and a fair and honest election to vote in electing ONE governing body for all Palestinians.
Not the corrupt, rich, power hungry, warmongers they’ve got now. Who don’t give a fig for the people they’re supposed to serve.

One government to negotiate with Israel, under the auspices of a “United Muslim Conclave“
(Not the UN Security Council who are useless).
If Israel is/was trying to get as many Islamic nations as they can to sign the Abraham Accords that’s was the first step.
Those same countries could have use their influence to keep Iran and co at bay.

But once again the Palestinians have misjudged, sat on their arse, played the victim and here we are again.
It’s time they took responsibility for their own future. There have been avenues. There have been strategies (without bloodshed) There has been ways if they were forthright and genuine about their future.
They have been gifted countless $billions over the years. Plus all the other aid given to them. If they were genuine, all that aid in money and goods would have gone a long way building a future.

Are Palestinians genuine that they want a future for themselves and the next generations?
OR is it only a future for themselves and the next generations as long as Israel and its population is eradicated?

Which is it?
They have a choice, they’ve always had a choice. It’s time they start making the right choice.

 

[MD Jazz]

what a wank. Answered 50 times

Ahh the old not that anyone condones what Hamas did. Well why the *smile* don’t you condemn them for what they are and what they did.
No one “condones”
Cause and effect

Cause and effect.
If Hamas hadn’t caused it Israel had no reason to invade Gaza.

what has Hamas done for the Palestinians they rule for the last nearly 20 years?

I cannot stand Hamas. I dislike all religion. I particularly dislike religious zealotry, the kind that drives the actions of the likes of Hamas and many Israeli's. It's the base reason behind everything in this dispute.

What Hamas did was reprehensible, unfathomable and the perpetrators deserve to die painful slow deaths. It is tragic for the victimns and families.

But that doesn't mean I condone Israel's response. Nor their actions for decades. They have assisted in creating the monster that acted on Oct 7. I cannot see how killing tens of thousands of innocent people can be judged as some sort of proportional response.

Personally if every religious zealot was removed from the planet it would be a better place.

 

[glantone]

Listened to Yasmine Mohammed talking Gaza with Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib today and thought it refreshingly informative. Some might like it.

 

[Willo]

Listened to Yasmine Mohammed talking Gaza with Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib today and thought it refreshingly informative. Some might like it.

What an informative video. Thanks for posting this.

I will bet any money not many, if any, I’d be surprised if even one of the Pro-Palestinian lobby group will watch this.

It confirms everything I have been saying since the start. And completely rubbishes the far fetched narratives many of here espouse. It just goes to show how many know *smile* all.

That this young Palestinian/Gazan woman and to a point Fatah even agree with what I have been saying has justified my point of view.

 

[Willo]

Unfortunately I don’t think that “this largest open air prison in the world“ will look like this for a long time to come.
More’s the pity

 

[Willo]

The question was raised before.

I guess the IDF can’t just flood all the tunnel systems while the abductees are still there somewhere.
One those abductees are released from their murderous bestial captors. That’s what I’d be looking though, divide, flood and seal off.

 

[DavidSSS]

If you want to be the “perenial victim” you complain and do nothing for 75 years. You rely on aid and $billions every year. You shake your fist to the sky and complain.

Ok, so one minute Hamas, Fatah et al are supposed to take their grievances to the world community in a peaceful manner (ie: complain) and you reckon that's just not good enough because complaining gets you nowhere. Well, yeah, complaining got them nowhere, so it is hardly a surprise that terrorist actions were the response. Entirely foreseeable given their complaints got nowhere. Again, you suggest nothing - they shouldn't complain, nor should they respond to being occupied. Clearly you are recommending the Palestinians just suck it up. I wouldn't, I'd fight back.

You criticise the Palestinians for being divided, yet conveniently ignore Israel's efforts to divide them. This was deliberately done to make sure the Oslo Accords did not get anywhere, we all know this.

Who should the Palestinians negotiate with? The Netanyahu government who call them sub-human? The Netanyahu government who claim the whole of Palestine from the river to the sea? The Netanyahu government who lead a very divided society? The Netanyahu government who looked very shaky before the Hamas attack and are likely to fall if there is a permanent cease fire? Which mob in the Knesset should the Palestinians negotiate with, the current government or the government which will quickly follow?

You call the UN useless and then criticise the Palestinians for not accepting the UN partition in 1948. Why should they have accepted that half their country was gone and hundreds of thousands were forcibly displaced off the land they lived in? Would you?

DS

 

[Willo]

Ok, so one minute Hamas, Fatah et al are supposed to take their grievances to the world community in a peaceful manner (ie: complain) and you reckon that's just not good enough because complaining gets you nowhere. Well, yeah, complaining got them nowhere, so it is hardly a surprise that terrorist actions were the response. Entirely foreseeable given their complaints got nowhere. Again, you suggest nothing - they shouldn't complain, nor should they respond to being occupied. Clearly you are recommending the Palestinians just suck it up. I wouldn't, I'd fight back.

So you just take a sliver out of a post and use that.
No it’s not what I said at all. So don’t quote me, then use words I didn’t use.
I didn’t include Hamas and Fatah in any of that. They are the problem. If the Palestinians, there must be some intelligent and respected leaders . Er A.I. did suggest something. You missed that again

You criticise the Palestinians for being divided, yet conveniently ignore Israel's efforts to divide them. This was deliberately done to make sure the Oslo Accords did not get anywhere, we all know this.

ah yes Israel’s fault as usual. No responsibility, victims again. So it’s obvious to everyone but the Palestinians what Israel’s plan is.

Who should the Palestinians negotiate with? The Netanyahu government who call them sub-human? The Netanyahu government who claim the whole of Palestine from the river to the sea? The Netanyahu government who lead a very divided society? The Netanyahu government who looked very shaky before the Hamas attack and are likely to fall if there is a permanent cease fire? Which mob in the Knesset should the Palestinians negotiate with, the current government or the government which will quickly follow?

They have had 75 years. They could have negotiated with every government before Netanyahu. But didn’t or couldn’t be bothered doing it in good faith. As I said if they had approached the countries o the Abraham Accord to represent their interests! To oversee fair elections, even Netanyahu was keen on getting those Islamic states on board.
If you don’t try something, the status quo remains.

You call the UN useless and then criticise the Palestinians for not accepting the UN partition in 1948. Why should they have accepted that half their country was gone and hundreds of thousands were forcibly displaced off the land they lived in? Would you?

DS

That’s not what I said at all.maybe you need to read.
I said the UN Security Council is useless..

We’ve been through this a thousand times.
I have a suggestion as to what they could have done. They’ve done nothing. And it’s too late now.
So you can stop repeating yourself and posting the same old thing. It’s done. It’s gone .
Look for solutions to being victims, or victims you will be for the next ten generations

 

[Sintiger]

Unfortunately I don’t think that “this largest open air prison in the world“ will look like this for a long time to come.
More’s the pity

Yes I’ve seen this before. I am confused however because I thought the Palestinians had built nothing and had sat on their arses. I thought I read someone saying that, must have been mistaken.
There is a Gaza elite of course, just like every society has. But there are also lots of others.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/513662...recent conflict began,same is true of shelter.

Half the population was angry …I wonder why?

However the reality was that it was blockaded. Despite some aspects of a good life, 80% of the population relied to some extent on aid, nearly 2/3 of the population lived in poverty and youth unemployment was close to 70%. Basic necessities were not always available, power and water was controlled, the right to leave and enter Gaza determined by outside forces.

As for the rest…Hamas is bad. No *smile* Sherlock.

 

[Willo]

Yes I’ve seen this before. I am confused however because I thought the Palestinians had built nothing and had sat on their arses. I thought I read someone saying that, must have been mistaken.

Did I say that sat on their arses? I’ll have to have a look. Probably sitting around their hookah pipes.No you weren’t mistaken. Obviously building contractors were brought in. Like the Gaza University that Moroccans built with money supplied by their king. Other building there were built by funds from Saudi. Probably Saudi builders. Obviously I’m not talking about an apartment block

But what have the Palestinians built? What economy, what industries (apart from rockets and suicide vest manufacturing) what manufacturing. Next will be the excuse that they Israel won’t let them import or export anything

There is a Gaza elite of course, just like every society has. But there are also lots of others.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/513662/palestinians-gaza-risk-israel-hamas-war.aspx#:~:text=Before the recent conflict began,same is true of shelter.

Funny how Palestinians would receive a flat if they killed an Israeli and received a sum of money to go with it. Obviously someone had a surplus of flats or building supplies to erect them. So they look after the killers but not the needy people.
Shows you what they are.

Was the food supply overpriced? Who was in control of the food supply? Who distributed the food aid supplies and donated to Gazans and WBers? UNRWA? Or Hamas?
Was there enough food for all Palestinians? Or weve food supplies siphoned off and resold at higher prices and Hamas pocketing the money?

Where does all the Aid $billions go?
Is it cash in the bank to buy supplies?
Is it in kind?
I've seen bags of flour stamped with UNRWSA. Do they buy it from suppliers like that or is it supplied that way?

Half the population was angry …I wonder why?

Maybe because they lost their source of income. They could no longer work and earn a quid in Israel. Hmm what caused that issue I wonder.

Almost 400,000 Palestinians have lost jobs due to war, report says

Many have little or no income after the closure of crossings into Israel and restrictions on workers, according to ILO

www.theguardian.com

However the reality was that it was blockaded. Despite some aspects of a good life, 80% of the population relied to some extent on aid, nearly 2/3 of the population lived in poverty and youth unemployment was close to 70%. Basic necessities were not always available, power and water was controlled, the right to leave and enter Gaza determined by outside forces.

How many were working in Israel? Do you know how much they were paid? I’ll see if I can find out.
135,000 with work permits. 30,000 without work permits from one source. Other sources claim up to 400,000 have lost their jobs. 182,000 from Gaza! The rest from the WB. Why did that happen?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...inian-economies-suffering-from-ban-on-workers
Between 5,000 ($A2000) to 10,000 shekels.($A4000)

As for the rest…Hamas is bad. No *smile* Sherlock.

ahh well quite a few here say that Hamas (and by extent Palestinians) had no other option. Read a few posts above. Looks like you need to explain it to them. Not me. I already knew that.

 

[glantone]

.........That this young Palestinian/Gazan woman and to a point Fatah even agree with what I have been saying has justified my point of view.

Actually her father was born in Gaza, she in Vancouver. Her life story is one of amazing courage. Very very moving and someone for whom I have the greatest admiration. Here's her 2019 conversation with Sam Harris. It isn't so much about Palestine but it is a highly enlightening conversation on Muslim women and the challenges many of them face both in Muslim majority countries and here in the West. Suitable for people of all political persuasions.

Sam Harris | #175 - Leaving the Faith

Sam Harris speaks with Yasmine Mohammed about her book "Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam."

www.samharris.org

 

[Sintiger]

Did I say that sat on their arses? I’ll have to have a look. Probably sitting around their hookah pipes.No you weren’t mistaken. Obviously building contractors were brought in. Like the Gaza University that Moroccans built with money supplied by their king. Other building there were built by funds from Saudi. Probably Saudi builders. Obviously I’m not talking about an apartment block

But what have the Palestinians built? What economy, what industries (apart from rockets and suicide vest manufacturing) what manufacturing. Next will be the excuse that they Israel won’t let them import or export anything

Funny how Palestinians would receive a flat if they killed an Israeli and received a sum of money to go with it. Obviously someone had a surplus of flats or building supplies to erect them. So they look after the killers but not the needy people.
Shows you what they are.

Was the food supply overpriced? Who was in control of the food supply? Who distributed the food aid supplies and donated to Gazans and WBers? UNRWA? Or Hamas?
Was there enough food for all Palestinians? Or weve food supplies siphoned off and resold at higher prices and Hamas pocketing the money?

Where does all the Aid $billions go?
Is it cash in the bank to buy supplies?
Is it in kind?
I've seen bags of flour stamped with UNRWSA. Do they buy it from suppliers like that or is it supplied that way?


Maybe because they lost their source of income. They could no longer work and earn a quid in Israel. Hmm what caused that issue I wonder.

Almost 400,000 Palestinians have lost jobs due to war, report says

Many have little or no income after the closure of crossings into Israel and restrictions on workers, according to ILO

www.theguardian.com

How many were working in Israel? Do you know how much they were paid? I’ll see if I can find out.
135,000 with work permits. 30,000 without work permits from one source. Other sources claim up to 400,000 have lost their jobs. 182,000 from Gaza! The rest from the WB. Why did that happen?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...inian-economies-suffering-from-ban-on-workers
Between 5,000 ($A2000) to 10,000 shekels.($A4000)

ahh well quite a few here say that Hamas (and by extent Palestinians) had no other option. Read a few posts above. Looks like you need to explain it to them. Not me. I already knew that.

lol

Nothing of substance here

 

[Willo]

lol

Nothing of substance here

I don’t really care. Just rebutted your link to people being homeless. People unable to get food, either from Hamas and UNRSWA
Up to 400,000 Palestinians worked in Israel were earning between $2k - $4k per month. So they were earning enough money.
Someone was milking the aid if it wasn’t getting to the people.

 

[Willo]

Actually her father was born in Gaza, she in Vancouver. Her life story is one of amazing courage. Very very moving and someone for whom I have the greatest admiration. Here's her 2019 conversation with Sam Harris. It isn't so much about Palestine but it is a highly enlightening conversation on Muslim women and the challenges many of them face both in Muslim majority countries and here in the West. Suitable for people of all political persuasions.

Sam Harris | #175 - Leaving the Faith

Sam Harris speaks with Yasmine Mohammed about her book "Unveiled: How Western Liberals Empower Radical Islam."

www.samharris.org

Don’t expect the proPalestinans to even look at it mate.
If it doesn’t fit their dogma or narrow vision it’s not worth a look. They’re as insular as the people they help remain victims

 

[DavidSSS]

Willo, the Palestinians tried negotiating, the Israeli government has never been interested in a Palestinian state unless it is a Bantustan. We all know this. Israel has always argued that any Palestinian state could not have the sovereign powers of a conventional state.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

I don’t really care. Just rebutted your link to people being homeless. People unable to get food, either from Hamas and UNRSWA

You didn’t rebut anything.

Your post that I LOL’d at is full of the uninformed opinions many have about the underprivileged, not just in Gaza but all over the world. They should just do something, they are lazy, they are playing the victim, it is their fault because they are all corrupt. I’ve heard it all before.

Any attempt by you to downplay what conditions were like in Gaza for years is completely irrelevant because they won’t change the facts of how people lived.

As you know I have the advantage of knowing and talking to some who have worked in aid there, people who actually know the reality.

This tactic you seem to have now employed of trying the downplay Palestinian suffering and blame them is pretty poor in my opinion. At one stage I thought you were better than that.

 

[Willo]

You didn’t rebut anything.

Yes I did. You were talking about people being homeless. I pointed out the fact their seemed to be plenty of flats awarded to anyone who kills a Jew.
Obviously there are plenty there, it’s who decides who gets them

Your post that I LOL’d at is full of the uninformed opinions many have about the underprivileged, not just in Gaza but all over the world. They should just do something, they are lazy, they are playing the victim, it is their fault because they are all corrupt. I’ve heard it all before.

It’s nearly funny when I put up facts they are just dismissed.
Of course they should try to do something. As I said if they’d continue in this vein, the future looks grim for the next 50 years. What do think they should do? Rest on their laurels
They do play the victim. It’s always someone’s else’s fault. Usually Israel’s. Others have made a life for themselves and their families.
I didn’t say it “was their fault because they’re corrupt” . But you can’t deny there is a hell of a lot of corruption in the upper echelons

Any attempt by you to downplay what conditions were like in Gaza for years is completely irrelevant because they won’t change the facts of how people lived.

I haven’t downplayed anything. Just provided facts..

As you know I have the advantage of knowing and talking to some who have worked in aid there, people who actually know the reality.

This tactic you seem to have now employed of trying the downplay Palestinian suffering and blame them is pretty poor in my opinion. At one stage I thought you were better than that.

It’s called a difference of opinion. Once again, I haven’t downplayed anything. You're ultra sensitive when it comes to anything that shows not all are suffering. Some of the suffering is at the hands of those who rule the people. How can you deny that fact?

 

[Willo]

Willo, the Palestinians tried negotiating, the Israeli government has never been interested in a Palestinian state unless it is a Bantustan. We all know this. Israel has always argued that any Palestinian state could not have the sovereign powers of a conventional state.

DS

I think we’ve been over this before.
It depends where you look and which party you support.

You could show links and clips and articles that support your views. I could do the same. Nothing will change.