Palestine and Israel

[Willo]

We are entering dangerous times, it seems Israel has bombed Iran.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...-updates-iran-israel-today-explosions-isfahan

Natanyahu clearly takes the view that his government staying in power is way more important than peace.

DS

It’s not just about Netanyahu’s government staying in power at all.

They have a Unity Government and War Cabinet. Made of of some of the opposition parties as well as the cobbled together coalition.
aThis was formed after the October 7 atrocities

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-parliament-approves-national-unity-government-2023-10-12/

Netanyahu sets up emergency Israeli unity government and war cabinet

Troop buildup continues in preparation for expected ground invasion of Gaza as pressure grows for humanitarian corridors

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sintiger]

Looks like the Gazans have some respite while aisrael looks to Iran

I know. How dare they have any semblence of a normal life when they are getting the *smile* bombed out of them.

Bloody hell, the job just isn't been done well enough when they aren't either cowering in tents and bombed out buildings or attending funerals.

WTH are the Israelis doing?

 

[Willo]

I know. How dare they have any semblence of a normal life when they are getting the *smile* bombed out of them.

Bloody hell, the job just isn't been done well enough when they aren't either cowering in tents and bombed out buildings or attending funerals.

WTH are the Israelis doing?

Playing tit for tat with Hamas bosses

 

[K3]

I know. How dare they have any semblence of a normal life when they are getting the *smile* bombed out of them.

Bloody hell, the job just isn't been done well enough when they aren't either cowering in tents and bombed out buildings or attending funerals.

WTH are the Israelis doing?

What makes it worse, is the doubt that what the Israeli state has done so often, is to post lies. Is this photo actually a truthfully recent one?

While it may well be, it also may not be. The Israeli state has made it so they cannot be trusted at all... nothing they say can be believed.

 

[Willo]

Beach Offers Rare Respite for Gazans

Hundreds of Gazans found rare respite at the beach this week from more than six months of traumatizing Israeli bombardments in the Palestinian territory. After temperatures suddenly soared, children paddled in the sea and their friends played ball games on the sand around Deir el-Balah in the...

english.aawsat.com

About Us

english.aawsat.com

So let’s condemn Israel …again
Why not celebrate the fact that Gazans are having some respite?

 

[Sintiger]

What makes it worse, is the doubt that what the Israeli state has done so often, is to post lies. Is this photo actually a truthfully recent one?

While it may well be, it also may not be. The Israeli state has made it so they cannot be trusted at all... nothing they say can be believed.

So what if it is real? Shows the resilience of the people.

Doesn’t change the facts of what has happened in Gaza

 

[K3]

So what if it is real? Shows the resilience of the people.

Doesn’t change the facts of what has happened in Gaza

Nothing if it is real. I hope it is.

But... What if it isn't? Kind of worse hey?

 

[Willo]

It’s a wonder Hamas hasn’t put a set of turnstiles in and made the Gazans pay to go through them to the beach.

 

[glantone]

Insulting assertion without any evidence.

IanG, I think many of the anti-Semitic posts may be unwittingly so but intent doesn’t nullify perception, from mpov. I doubt I’ll be posting again on this thread because like the peace process this thread is going nowhere. So I'll try my best to address your concerns.

Fwiw, the overwhelming majority of Jews who choose to live in Israel are Zionists otherwise why would any right minded Jew choose to live in a region surrounded by millions and millions of people so hostile to their very presence. And this Zionist population of every kind of Jew – ultra orthodox, orthodox, religious moderate, non secular, atheist etc etc came together on Oct 7 to defend the Jewish state - the Zionist state, which again and again and again on this thread we’re told has been wilfully murdering Palestinians and stealing their land and oppressing them for the last 75 years. Well, for the these last 75 years of ‘criminal behaviour’ every Israeli government has been elected by the people, for the people, the overwhelmingly Jewish people.

So attempts to detach the term Zionism from the Jewish population of Israel requires some potent alchemy which doesn't work on me.

Efforts to change the meaning of Zionism to fit one’s own political agenda are transparently intellectually dishonest from my pov. If people have to give a historic explanation and personal definition of the meaning of a word which is clearly defined in every dictionary in the world chances are they’re not using it correctly or rather setting up a defensive ideological perimeter around their use of it.

For example, how do you reconcile the pejorative use of ‘Zionists’ by posters on this thread with the left wing idealistic pro Palestinian Jews and non Jewish peaceniks slaughtered on Oct 7 many of whom might have considered themselves peace loving Zionists? That is, people who advocate for an independent Jewish state where Jews can live in safety.

The proof is in the pudding mate, – the people who always spit out the term ‘Zionists’ as a pejorative on a regular basis are the ultra conservative religious types of Iran and Hamas and other true anti-Semites world wide. What do Iran, Hamas and bizarrely the regressive left in western countries have in common? They all share the belief that Israel is a criminal state illegitimately created on Palestinian land, a blight on Palestinian existence . So those who are proudly ‘anti Zionist’ are with or without their consent or understanding and despite their ideologically driven objections, the anti-Semitic company they keep.

 

[glantone]

While I'm on my fruit box, IanG, according to the UN something like 720,000 Palestinian Arabs or more left, fled for their lives or were forcibly expelled from their homes during and after 1948 war. They lost everything. That’s terrible. Shocking.

Also according to the same body the UN something like 850,000 Jews INDIGENOUS to Arab states like Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan and others also had to leave or flee for their lives as Arab governments retaliated against their Jewish populations. Individual and communal properties and possessions of most Jews all seized by Arab governments without compensation or any right of return.

So why aren’t the people here on this thread who are so morally outraged by the loss of land and property of the Palestinian Arabs not as equally outraged and fighting for right of return or at least compensation for those hundreds of thousands of uprooted Jews and their kin who were not only in greater numbers but lost everything too? I don’t think it has even come up once in conversation.

It’s either due to ignorance or knowing but choosing to ignore these facts for ideological reasons. And given how knowledgeable some posters here appear to be on the middle east what other conclusion can I come to concerning the total lack of acknowledgement of Jewish losses? I dunno.

 

[glantone]

And then there are the double standards - acknowledging Oct 7 atrocities whilst denying or downplaying the nature and number of atrocities - mass rape, killing babies for example. This is classic racism.
When a Palestinian describes an atrocity no matter how loathsome committed by the IDF my first instinct is to believe the victim no matter what. Why wouldn’t anyone believe so many Jewish first responders and eye witnesses?

The idea that Israel continues to nurture generations of Palestinian hate is without a doubt true for many Palestinians but why all the while ignore the fact that the Palestinian education system teaches hatred of Jews from kindergarten all the way through. I posted a link about that months ago. All of the Oct 7 murderers and rapists and looters have been through the Palestinian education system. And their mums & dads and grand folk elected Hamas back in the day despite their clearly genocidal policies towards Israel. These facts can be acknowledged while still being strongly Pro Palestinian. These double standards are racist.

I have no problem in critiquing the pre Oct 7 government as fascistic, the west bank settlers as total pricks irrespective of their reasons for building on those lands etc etc

Sadly in some ways indigenous Australians aren’t doing that much better than the Palestinians pre Oct 7 as outrageous as that may sound. So to all those posters who feel so strongly about the plight of Palestinians due to ‘Zionist colonization’ and the ensuing land dispossession, soaring poverty rates, poor life expectancy, high unemployment and poor health especially mental health etc etc may I pass on American journalist Bret Stephens advice: if you are truly passionate about this issue and are not indigenous to your country set the ethical and moral example, sign over your land titles to the original owners/custodians who are still suffering the undeniable causal effects of colonization, identify your ancestry lands and apply for citizenship there.

I may be wrong in all of the above. Peace & Love people.

 

[Willo]

Outrageous posting glantone
Far too much common sense in your posts.

The absolute majority posting on this thread are all pro palestinian apologists sympathisers.
I‘m sure there will be a few who are apoplectic with being called out for their stance. They’re used to having comfort in numbers and agreeing with one another while potting me.

Funny how it’s so obvious, apart from, to themselves.

 

[DavidSSS]

F Me, the difference between Jews and Zionists is bleedingly obvious. Plenty of Jews are not Zionists, and as Biden said "You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist".

Anyway, back to the carnage wrought by the IDF:

Bodies found in bags marked in Hebrew at destroyed Nasser Hospital​

• 
  Hani Mahmoud

Reporting from Khan Younis, southern Gaza
Horrific scenes after the Israeli military withdrew from Nasser Hospital on April 7, leaving trails of destruction inside the complex. What’s most shocking is the discovery of a mass grave, the largest so far in the city of Khan Younis.
In the hospital courtyard, civil defence members and paramedics have retrieved 180 bodies buried in this mass grave by the Israeli military. The bodies include elderly women, children and young men.
Rescuers say some bodies were found inside plastic bags that have Hebrew writing on them. Some have their hands tied behind their backs and it looks like they were executed and then buried here.
Within the past half an hour, we’ve seen a group of people coming here – crying parents, family members – searching for the bodies of their loved ones.

Mass graves now, something you tend to see in a genocide or in ethnic cleansing.

Indefensible.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

I won’t bother replying to Glantone in full because it will take us nowhere
The only thing I will say is that this constant charge of racism is ironic given that under definitions used by those throwing around this insult (which it is) they would most definitely be considered racist against Palestinians and Arabs.
The argument that because you are vocal on one cause rather than another must be for racist reasons is so much nonsense. Any expulsion or persecution of ethic peoples is abhorrent, whether it be Palestinians or rohingya or uigar or tibetans or a multitude of others including Jews.
Where is Glantone’s posting about the Rohingya persecution in Burma. Oh he must be racist against Asians.
What a crock.
I don’t mind being told I am wrong but I won’t cop racism, whether it be a charge of conscious or unconscious racism.
It is an excuse to dismiss good people’s concern about the treatment of Palestinians rather than dealing with the issue itself.
And Willo you are right, most are pro Palestinian sympathisers. If you write pro Hamas you would be wrong so I am glad you know the difference. We’ve obviously taught you something.

 

[Sintiger]

F Me, the difference between Jews and Zionists is bleedingly obvious. Plenty of Jews are not Zionists, and as Biden said "You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist".

Anyway, back to the carnage wrought by the IDF:



Mass graves now, something you tend to see in a genocide or in ethnic cleansing.

Indefensible.

DS

The fact is David that anyone who condemns the Hamas attack last year must also also condemn this. There is no middle ground in such brutality, there is no excuse.
Murder is murder, whether it be by Hamas militants on October 7 or the IDF.
What I fear we will see if denial that it happened, justfification because of a tunnel or some such reason, mistaken identity.
Or silence.

 

[Willo]

And Willo you are right, most are pro Palestinian sympathisers. If you write pro Hamas you would be wrong so I am glad you know the difference. We’ve obviously taught you something.

Yes,it’s the nuance.
iI’m open to learning from all different avenues. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Pity others aren’t. There are plenty of proHamas sympathisers and anti Jew/israeli on this board as well. They've still got their head buried in the sand.

That’s not directed at you Sin.

 

[K3]

The fact is David that anyone who condemns the Hamas attack last year must also also condemn this. There is no middle ground in such brutality, there is no excuse.
Murder is murder, whether it be by Hamas militants on October 7 or the IDF.
What I fear we will see if denial that it happened, justfification because of a tunnel or some such reason, mistaken identity.
Or silence.

"antisemitism..." or "the holocaust..." are likely to be wheeled out *again* if anyone dares criticise the IOF for such despicably abhorrent actions.

 

[Sintiger]

Yes,it’s the nuance.
iI’m open to learning from all different avenues. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Pity others aren’t. There are plenty of proHamas sympathisers and anti Jew/israeli on this board as well. They've still got their head buried in the sand.

That’s not directed at you Sin.

That is of course for others to judge Willo and for people to judge about themselves. Most people know who they really are in this space. FWIW I haven't personally judged anyone as anti semitic in this thread. Anti the state of Israel and it's actions and anti zionist yes.

But whatever we believe about ourselves and others I always come back to what is right and just. That's why my view can be incapsulated in one sentence.

What has happened and is happening to the Palestinian people at the hands of the State of Israel is not right and it is not just, but that does not mean that I support all means and every action they and others take to secure their rights.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Where is Glantone’s posting about the Rohingya persecution in Burma.

Geez Sinner, get up to speed man. It hasn't been Burma for like 35 years, it's Myanmar. Just another country where the mob in power is flogging the suitcase out of the neighbours. Them poor old Rohypnols have been fair copping a *smile* kicking for a while now.

 

[Sintiger]

Geez Sinner, get up to speed man. It hasn't been Burma for like 35 years, it's Myanmar. Just another country where the mob in power is flogging the suitcase out of the neighbours. Them poor old Rohypnols have been fair copping a *smile* kicking for a while now.

It’s Burma to me, that is the dominant ethnic group there. I don’t recognise the legitimacy of the military junta who changed the name

As for the rest maybe you missed the context of the post? I’ll leave it at that.