Palestine and Israel

[Sintiger]

Ithink there was plenty of evidence that there was. I wouldn’t think doctors would be aware of them if they were doing their work, treating patients.
Obviously it depends on the source and their agenda.

Iran International Reporter Tours Hamas Tunnel Under Shifa Hospital

Iran International correspondent Babak Itzhaki has walked in a Hamas underground tunnel right beneath the Shifa Hospital in Gaza,the largest in the coastal sliver.

www.iranintl.com

A Tunnel Offers Clues to How Hamas Uses Gaza’s Hospitals

New evidence shows Hamas operated under Al-Shifa Hospital but falls short of proving Israel’s early claims that there was a command center there.

www.nytimes.com

How would you know? The 2 doctors I spoke to said if there were Hamas militants going in and out of the hospital through tunnels they believe they would have seen it.
But again, you should read what I wrote

Yes and on it goes. Without any thought and a distinct lack of conscience or humanity.

Don't know how that relates to what i wrote

Apart from when Hezbollah, a Lebanese Shia group was created with the support of 1500 Iran Revolutionary Guards. It was even give the name by Khomeini. If they were “created” they’ve been indoctrinated, supplied, trained and funded by Iran

Hezbollah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for Hamas, Iran may not have actually created these murderous bastards, but they fund, train, arm them. Without Iran, would Hamas be in power ruling over Gaza. Would they have the manpower, weapons, facilities be able to carry out missile strikes, October 7.

Hezbollah in Lebanon was created in 1982. That was only 3 years after the Iranian revolution.
Again, read exactly what I wrote.
The ONLY point I was making is that these groups are not created because of an agenda from Iran, they are funded by Iran as a matter of convenience. It is related to the covert nature of what Iran does that I referred to in another post, how they create chaos and confrontation and largely avoid outright attacks by themselves.

Maybe the reason they wanted a more compliant government was because of the terror attacks coming from Lebanon at the time. Didn’t the PLO relocate from Jordan to Lebanon after the Black September conflict.After Jordan kicked them out.
After the Coastal Road Massacre and numerous other attacks on Israeli civilians and the attempted assassination of one of its ambassadors, Israel responded by invading Lebanon to hunt the PLO/fatah.
This was when Israel and Egypt were discussing peace talks..

I was simply telling the facts, isn't that what you like? What i said is 100% true how you interpet the reasons is up to you.

Im sure the good, decent populations of these middle eas5 countries would like all these terror armies t9 go for a long one way walk into the Mediterranean or the Red Sea.

Regardless of which “dies” or opinion we all have , we can all agree on one thing.
And that it’s always the innocent who pay the price. Always. To a lesser degree is the utter destruction that is a result.
People having to get over the loss of loved ones, the gruesome injuries survivors have to live with.
The continued pain and suffering that never ends. The always uncertain future living in these areas..just waiting for something to kick off another round of violence.
Having to remake lives, with the absence of good jobs, schools, health infrastructure etc etc.

When will this cycle of violence and self destruction finally end?

You feel like putting them all in their own bottle and dispersing them to the four corners of the earth. But knowing the protagonists they’d find a way to still keep going.
I may be pessimistic, but realistically I’m not sure where they go from here. Idealists may have an answer. Realists…?

I agree but I think you will find that the good and decent people of Lebanon would overwhelmingly be in favour of a Palestinian state as well. They just don't like Hamas and Hezbollah and their way of trying to obtain it (sound familiar) but they also don't like their own government, they don't like the Syrian regime and they don't like the Iranian regime.
At least that is true of the Lebanese people I know, whether they be Islamic or Druze or Maronite Christians
But overwhelmingly I suspect the Lebanese just want peace and to be left alone. There are an enormous number of Lebanese working in aid in the middle east

 

[Sintiger]

I've heard little snippets like a former team mate travelled to Iran , just as a tourist , with his red headed daughter and they had a great time
so not all Irian's hate the West

And of Jewish families gathering at a Canadian airport to offer help to Syrian refugees

There are snippets of humanity everywhere ceehook.

 

[Willo]

How would you know?

From all the reports, videos and eye witnesses

The 2 doctors I spoke to said if there were Hamas militants going in and out of the hospital through tunnels they believe they would have seen it.
But again, you should read what I wrote

I did. What if Hamas didn’t broadcast it to all and sundry. The tunnels were for Hamas not for doctors! Nurses or everyday Palestinians.
How do the doctors know who goes in and comes out. Do they have a sign on their head. Maybe they were busy doing their jobs.
Go to any hospital and ask a doctor who he saw go in and out 24hours of the day! Every day of the week.
Maybe they used it for a specific purpose ie protection above while they carried out their nefarious activities in command and stockpile centres underneath
Maybe they used it to play Texas hold ‘em poker

Don't know how that relates to what i wrote

Hezbollah in Lebanon was created in 1982. That was only 3 years after the Iranian revolution.
Again, read exactly what I wrote.

It doesn’t need to apparently. You can quote and write whatever you like.
I did.
And added a bit more to your story so others get the whole picture.

The ONLY point I was making is that these groups are not created because of an agenda from Iran, they are funded by Iran as a matter of convenience. It is related to the covert nature of what Iran does that I referred to in another post, how they create chaos and confrontation and largely avoid outright attacks by themselves.

Gee, settle mate. I didn’t contradict any of that. Just coloured in within the lines for context..

I was simply telling the facts, isn't that what you like? What i said is 100% true how you interpet the reasons is up to you.

Yep. It is. See what I wrote above

I agree but I think you will find that the good and decent people of Lebanon would overwhelmingly be in favour of a Palestinian state as well.

Well I don’t think they really care. As long as they were able to live in peace. I’m sure they’re fed up with other countries using them and their country for their own purposes.

They just don't like Hamas and Hezbollah and their way of trying to obtain it (sound familiar) but they also don't like their own government, they don't like the Syrian regime and they don't like the Iranian regime.
At least that is true of the Lebanese people I know, whether they be Islamic or Druze or Maronite Christians
But overwhelmingly I suspect the Lebanese just want peace and to be left alone. There are an enormous number of Lebanese working in aid in the Middle East

That all well be true, none of those terror groups or countries have the goodwill or provide any benevolent supporter to the common person in Lebanon. They’ve had decades of civil war, inept government, war lords. None give a stuff.
They all use the country as a launching pad for acts of terror. Then the cycle repeats again.

 

[Sintiger]

From all the reports, videos and eye witnesses

You said that the doctors wouldn't know because they were treating patients and I said how would you know? there are no reports, videos or eye witnesses about whether the Doctors would know or not.

 

[Sintiger]

I did. What if Hamas didn’t broadcast it to all and sundry. The tunnels were for Hamas not for doctors! Nurses or everyday Palestinians.
How do the doctors know who goes in and comes out. Do they have a sign on their head. Maybe they were busy doing their jobs.
Go to any hospital and ask a doctor who he saw go in and out 24hours of the day! Every day of the week.
Maybe they used it for a specific purpose ie protection above while they carried out their nefarious activities in command and stockpile centres underneath
Maybe they used it to play Texas hold ‘em poker

Speculation, you simply don't know . Again you didn't read what I wrote properly which was "I know a couple of doctors who worked in hospitals in Gaza and they have never seen any evidence that there were tunnels underneath but that doesn't mean they weren't there or at other hospitals." You are arguing something I already said

It doesn’t need to apparently. You can quote and write whatever you like.
I did.
And added a bit more to your story so others get the whole picture.

I am sure they are happy to get the benefit of your wisdom but if you are replying to me I prefer you to address what I say. Isn't that the way you want it to work?

Gee, settle mate. I didn’t contradict any of that. Just coloured in within the lines for context..

No context or colouring required . My point makes it very clear the only point that was being made.
Very settled, thanks for your concern

Yep. It is. See what I wrote above

No need for context or colouring as explained thanks all the same.

Well I don’t think they really care. As long as they were able to live in peace. I’m sure they’re fed up with other countries using them and their country for their own purposes.

The Lebanese people I know and have met care, obviously the ones you have met and spoken to about this don't.

That all well be true, none of those terror groups or countries have the goodwill or provide any benevolent supporter to the common person in Lebanon. They’ve had decades of civil war, inept government, war lords. None give a stuff.
They all use the country as a launching pad for acts of terror. Then the cycle repeats again.

It is way more than that and not all of them are terror groups, some are just inept and corrupt politicians. Lebanon has about 1.5 million Syrian refugees inside that border which creates an enormous burden on them as a country and that is not about being used as a launching pad for terror it is about being the dumping ground for disenfranchised people.

 

[Willo]

Speculation, you simply don't know . Again you didn't read what I wrote properly which was "I know a couple of doctors who worked in hospitals in Gaza and they have never seen any evidence that there were tunnels underneath but that doesn't mean they weren't there or at other hospitals." You are arguing something I already said

Good, Im glad you agree with me and I with you

I am sure they are happy to get the benefit of your wisdom but if you are replying to me I prefer you to address what I say. Isn't that the way you want it to work?

I’m humbled to be of service and give them some advice.
Its never stopped you before and you’ve never taken any notice.

No context or colouring required . My point makes it very clear the only point that was being made.

There is if you make a statement that only allows the reader to draw one opinion. Some colouring explains the full context.

Very settled, thanks for your concern

Im glad to hear that

No need for context or colouring as explained thanks all the same.

Ghats your opinion, if you don’t think it apt! You would have scrolled past it

The Lebanese people I know and have met care, obviously the ones you have met and spoken to about this don't.

Obviously, people can have different opinions

It is way more than that and not all of them are terror groups, some are just inept and corrupt politicians. Lebanon has about 1.5 million Syrian refugees inside that border which creates an enormous burden on them as a country and that is not about being used as a launching pad for terror it is about being the dumping ground for disenfranchised people.

Or both.
They know they get an influx of refugees, and they know they’re at risk of any retaliation from Israel on terror groups.
Both have an effect on the Lebanese, their security and safety, their very lives, the economy and the living standards


Hezbollah fires missiles from Lebanon, Israel fires back to …Lebanon.
These are seperate retaliatory attacks. Going back to 2006. Plenty more of them, this is just a sample.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-deeper-into-lebanon-hezbollah-downs-drone-2024-02-26/

Israeli strikes in Lebanon kill 16, militant rockets kill 1 Israeli as cross-border violence soars

Lebanon's state news agency says Israeli airstrikes killed nine people in southern Lebanon, including paramedics who were preparing to respond to the first strike.

apnews.com

Israel stages rare strikes in Lebanon and also hits Gaza Strip

The strikes in southern Lebanon came after militants from Lebanon fired nearly three dozen rockets at Israel on Thursday.

www.nbcnews.com

Israel Attacks Targets in Lebanon, Eyes Local UN Peacekeeping Reduction

Rabat – Israel attacked Lebanon on Tuesday, even as it advocates for the removal of the local United

www.moroccoworldnews.com

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israeli-military-strikes-targets-in-lebanon-after-hezbollah-rocket-attack-11628259944

Israeli Warplanes Bomb Beirut | Brookings

Interview with Martin S. Indyk, CNN (7/13/06)

www.brookings.edu

 

[DavidSSS]

Of course some believe Israel kicked it off, as usual. But downplay the reason Iranian generals were sitting in an office in Syria. He wasn’t there to take in the view.They weren’t plotting any more attacks on Israel, organising munitions training or anything else aimed at..wait…Israel. Not just military targets, we saw that 6 months ago.
Do you the airfield? The IDF? The Israeli leadership?
Pity the seven year old girl who was injured.

I could just as easily say that it was the Israeli attack on the Iranian Embassy kicked off this tit for tat exchange.

But we all know that that would be a facile analysis of both the Israeli attack on the Iranian Embassy and the Hamas attack on Israel.

Both actions happened in a context.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

Or both.
They know they get an influx of refugees, and they know they’re at risk of any retaliation from Israel on terror groups.
Both have an effect on the Lebanese, their security and safety, their very lives, the economy and the living

I think that’s what I said.

They have a massive refugee problem at one end of the country, an inept and corrupt political class and bureaucracy and Hezbollah camped next to the israeli border.

Doesn’t matter how many “elections” they have nothing much changes.

 

[Willo]

I could just as easily say that it was the Israeli attack on the Iranian Embassy kicked off this tit for tat exchange.

But we all know that that would be a facile analysis of both the Israeli attack on the Iranian Embassy and the Hamas attack on Israel.

Both actions happened in a context.

DS

Of course you could say that. It would be expected that someone would. But that would show a certain ignorance.

Hezbollah are armed, funded, trained and supplied with intelligence(military not brain power) with Iranian IRG members embedded in their infrastructure. For all intents and purposes they’re just a de facto branch of the Iranian military.

Well when you have regiments of Iranian Hezbollah parked on your doorstep and flinging the odd missile over the fence, you probably want to let Iran know you are ready and willing to hit back.

 

[Sintiger]

Of course you could say that. It would be expected that someone would. But that would show a certain ignorance.

Hezbollah are armed, funded, trained and supplied with intelligence(military not brain power) with Iranian IRG members embedded in their infrastructure. For all intents and purposes they’re just a de facto branch of the Iranian military.

Well when you have regiments of Iranian Hezbollah parked on your doorstep and flinging the odd missile over the fence, you probably want to let Iran know you are ready and willing to hit back.

It is an example of how the world is not made up of goodies and baddies Willo and how geopolitics clouds issues and moved them away from their core.
Iran is interested in power, or at least their regime is. Their main game is a fight for regional influence and power against saudi arabia and the covert nature of what they do has created very strange alliances, such as Saudi Arabia and Israel. The Houthi fight was against a corrupt regime, they are fighting in Yemen to overthrow a government, but what it has turned into is Saudi Arabia (and the US) supporting the government and Iran supporting the Houthi when the truth is that both sides are *smile*. The Houthi action against ships in the gulf had to be 100% Iran because Yemen is 3000 km from Palestine and Israel, the Houthi themselves would likely have little knowledge of that battle.
Hezbollah is supported by Iran but that is not the reason they were created which was in support of the Palestinian cause and to fight against Israeli influence in Lebanon.
Same with Hamas, the reason they were created had nothing to do with Iran but they are supported by them now as part of Iran's plan for regional power.
Another Iranian revolution would solve a lot of issues in the Middle East, not outside the realms of possibility but still unlikely. The truth is of course that the Iranian revolution in the late 70s happened because the Shah's regime was corrupt and brutal. Both *smile* again.
I know you don't agree but to me what Iran does or doesn't do should not divert us away from the right of the Palestinian cause. Their involvement is horrible and undoubtedly hurts that cause because the world talks about that involvement rather than the actual issue. My own view is that the best thing Israel can do now in response to the Iran drones and missiles is nothing because retaliating is exactly what Iran wants to happen. But I know that is a false hope.

 

[TigerMasochist]

. My own view is that the best thing Israel can do now in response to the Iran drones and missiles is nothing because retaliating is exactly what Iran wants to happen. But I know that is a false hope.

Can only hope that Israel laughs off the Iranian show of force as nothing more than an inept attempt at some tit for tat, so the Iranians could show their own locals how tough they nearly were. Last thing that's needed for the whole region right now is for the Israelis to put the big boy pants on and have a lash back at the Iranians. So far all the other Arabic nations have been content to pretty much sit back n stay out of the whole shebang. Simply don't want or need for any of the other nations to suddenly decide they need to be picking sides n the whole region to go up in flames.

 

[Harry]

Nothing surer than the Zionists retaliating. They would love nothing more than dragging the US into a direct conflict with Iran.

 

[K3]

Nothing surer than the Zionists retaliating. They would love nothing more than dragging the US into a direct conflict with Iran.

If they do, it will be time to hurry out and start stockpiling dunny paper, canned goods etc, and petrol!

I reckon the price of everything will go through the roof, skyline and up and up.

 

[Harry]

If they do, it will be time to hurry out and start stockpiling dunny paper, canned goods etc, and petrol!

I reckon the price of everything will go through the roof, skyline and up and up.

Why let an opportunity to make more profits go to waste.

 

[K3]

Why let an opportunity to make more profits go to waste.

I think it may be a bit nuanced than that mate. As the "West" gets so much petrol from the MENA region, which would be cut off if there is an escalation, everything will get hard to do, power and move around.

But hey, we should be good. Slomo created a big petrol reserve for us................................................................. in the USA.

I do also agree that every business that can use the situation to make more money, will. Get read for the price of everything to go up if it happens.

 

[DavidSSS]

Can only hope that Israel laughs off the Iranian show of force as nothing more than an inept attempt at some tit for tat, so the Iranians could show their own locals how tough they nearly were. Last thing that's needed for the whole region right now is for the Israelis to put the big boy pants on and have a lash back at the Iranians. So far all the other Arabic nations have been content to pretty much sit back n stay out of the whole shebang. Simply don't want or need for any of the other nations to suddenly decide they need to be picking sides n the whole region to go up in flames.

Iran warned everyone of this attack long before they did it, they also knew that 99% of their drones and missiles would be intercepted. In reality this was advanced sabre rattling with a slice of having to be seen to respond to the attack on their embassy.

The attack on the embassy was an escalation by Israel against Iran, and they had to have an escalated response back to Israel.

Would be good if this is the end of the tit for tat sabre rattling between Israel and Iran but that does not look likely.

Some good analysis here, the Iranian attack looks like bad timing taking attention away from the Gaza situation, although they couldn't wait too long if they were going to respond, but it also has some value for Iran in wedging the USA

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/15/iran-missiles-shot-down-tehran-america-israel

DS

 

[Sintiger]

I post this with some trepidation but fwiw I reckon Jon Stewart has this spot on.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

He is Jewish btw

 

[Panthera Tigris]

If they do, it will be time to hurry out and start stockpiling dunny paper, canned goods etc, and petrol!

I reckon the price of everything will go through the roof, skyline and up and up.

Without a shadow of a doubt. If a full blown regional conflict breaks out in the Middle East the post-Covid bout of inflation will look like child’s play.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

My own view is that the best thing Israel can do now in response to the Iran drones and missiles is nothing because retaliating is exactly what Iran wants to happen.

One could argue, pretty much exactly the same tactic as Hamas had in mind that kicked off this entire iteration of the conflict. Who knows perhaps Iranian advisors colluded in that.

 

[Willo]

It is an example of how the world is not made up of goodies and baddies Willo and how geopolitics clouds issues and moved them away from their core.
Iran is interested in power, or at least their regime is. Their main game is a fight for regional influence and power against saudi arabia and the covert nature of what they do has created very strange alliances, such as Saudi Arabia and Israel. The Houthi fight was against a corrupt regime, they are fighting in Yemen to overthrow a government, but what it has turned into is Saudi Arabia (and the US) supporting the government and Iran supporting the Houthi when the truth is that both sides are *smile*. The Houthi action against ships in the gulf had to be 100% Iran because Yemen is 3000 km from Palestine and Israel, the Houthi themselves would likely have little knowledge of that battle.
Hezbollah is supported by Iran but that is not the reason they were created which was in support of the Palestinian cause and to fight against Israeli influence in Lebanon.
Same with Hamas, the reason they were created had nothing to do with Iran but they are supported by them now as part of Iran's plan for regional power.
Another Iranian revolution would solve a lot of issues in the Middle East, not outside the realms of possibility but still unlikely. The truth is of course that the Iranian revolution in the late 70s happened because the Shah's regime was corrupt and brutal. Both *smile* again.
I know you don't agree but to me what Iran does or doesn't do should not divert us away from the right of the Palestinian cause. Their involvement is horrible and undoubtedly hurts that cause because the world talks about that involvement rather than the actual issue. My own view is that the best thing Israel can do now in response to the Iran drones and missiles is nothing because retaliating is exactly what Iran wants to happen. But I know that is a false hope.

I actually agree on all your points Sin.

At times I get the *smile* with these other states sticking their bibs in.

Exactly like Iran does. I only hope the people there overthrow the mad mullahs. I know they’re indoctrinated with a hatred of the West, mainly the US, and Israel. But they haven’t had much luck, firstly with the shah, then Khomeini and his rabid band of followers from the dark ages.
I think like Dante’s Inferno at times, the Middle East and further east. War, war, war! Dictators, strongmen, religious cults,all want their piece of the action and power over the people. Pity they can develop a pill and slip into those countries leaders that just totally incapacitates them. I can’t countenance murder. Hold on, yes I can. Give each of them a cyanide pill.
Then let the people elect a democratic government that puts the people first. Not religion, not power, not territory. The people.
Pipedream I know. Oops wandered off track.

Well if Israel can use some restraint and Iran decides they’ve “saved face” enough, maybe there is a chance.
Its a powder keg waiting for liftoff, but if wiser heads can impress on both sides the need for cooling off, just maybe.