Russia Invades Ukraine | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Russia Invades Ukraine

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
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Melbourne
Not the pretext, that is just propaganda, the claims he made that smart leaders use to limit his actions.

But hey, he's an all round baddie so we could never have prevented this conflict . . . or could we have tried?

So, how far back do you go to look for the causes of a crisis? A week maybe?

DS
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,168
15,037
Not the pretext, that is just propaganda, the claims he made that smart leaders use to limit his actions.

But hey, he's an all round baddie so we could never have prevented this conflict . . . or could we have tried?

So, how far back do you go to look for the causes of a crisis? A week maybe?

DS

If there were clearly stated red lines which were crossed, and which you claim he's always been consistent about, why did he need a pretext?
 

tigerdell

Hope springs infernal
Mar 29, 2014
4,708
5,419
David if NATO only exists because of Russia, and then Russia invaded Ukraine, then isn't having an alliance between countries a good thing?
Asking for a friend
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,172
19,044
@DavidSSS as a self-declared anarchist who prides himself on being to the left of the Greens, when you find yourself on the same side of a debate as Tucker Carlson it's got to be a bit worrying.
 
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mrposhman

Tiger Legend
Oct 6, 2013
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I watched a couple of Patrick Lancasters videos last night.

All followed the same pretext. Massive damage to buildings, clearly damaged by artillery shells. Random Ukrainian tanks / machine guns around, inferring that they caused the damage. People back it up (but bear in mind this is within the DPR controlled areas and likely the only media they hear are Russian controlled).

There is massive devastation in these videos and its horrifying to see it, but Patrick Lancaster is clearly a compromised journalist. There is never any commentary on these videos around Russian participation just those callous and dangerous Ukrainians bombing their own towns and cities.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
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@DavidSSS as a self-declared anarchist who prides himself on being to the left of the Greens, when you find yourself on the same side of a debate as Tucker Carlson it's got to be a bit worrying.

It's interesting that in the West most of those that support Putin and the war are either the extreme far right who approve of Putin's "anti-wokeness" or the old-school left who still hanker for the old Soviet Union.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
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Melbourne
I do despair.

You try and discuss the motivations of the invader, the long term causes of the war, the possibilities that could have been pursued to avoid people getting killed, and lo and behold you are suddenly supporting the invader.

What I support is an end to killing people and leveling cities, if that makes me a Putin supporter in the minds of some who seek no explanation as they live in a nice simple world where the goodies and baddies are clearly identifiable, and there are no grey areas, then go ahead live in your imaginary world. The real world is far more complicated.

How do you think this will end?

The US are now saying that they expect the war will continue at least until the end of 2022, is this acceptable?

Do you seriously think Ukraine can win? If not, then how do you view throwing a few armaments their way?

Or should we be pursuing an armistice to try and get negotiations happening?

Since you all seem to have such impeccable analysis and are on top of the situation and all the nuances - what would you have done to prevent this war, and what would you do now to stop the killing?

DS
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,168
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I do despair.

You also forgot to answer this question, so here it is again.

"If there were clearly stated red lines which were crossed, and which you claim he's always been consistent about, why did he need a pretext?"
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,711
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Melbourne
You also forgot to answer this question, so here it is again.

"If there were clearly stated red lines which were crossed, and which you claim he's always been consistent about, why did he need a pretext?"

For propaganda purposes, geez, do I have to explain everything?

Your turn:

How do you think this will end?

The US are now saying that they expect the war will continue at least until the end of 2022, is this acceptable?

Do you seriously think Ukraine can win? If not, then how do you view throwing a few armaments their way?

Or should we be pursuing an armistice to try and get negotiations happening?

Since you all seem to have such impeccable analysis and are on top of the situation and all the nuances - what would you have done to prevent this war, and what would you do now to stop the killing?

DS
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,168
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For propaganda purposes, geez, do I have to explain everything?

So the Red Lines weren't actually crossed so Putin had to invent this ridiculous lie about Ukraine being Nazi so he could invade? Got it. We agree finally.

My turn.

1. How do I think this will end - slowly, and bloodily. Ukraine will likely have to cede much of the east, although the Ukranian position - quite reasonably - is saying why the *smile* should we hand over even more of our country to this dictator *smile*, and so far they are willing to fight and die to protect their country. But you've never once mentioned the wishes or the agency of the Ukranian people in all of this, so why change now?

2. Do I think the US saying they expect the war to continue til end of 2022 is acceptable? It's probably accurate. You need to rephrase your question - I'll give you a clue, you want to say the US is responsible for the war continuing until the end of 2022 and do I think that is "acceptable", so at least be honest and phrase your question the right way. Try again. By the way, send a message to to poor provoked Mr. Putin - ask him if a war until the end of 2022 is acceptable. He'd say HELL YES.

3. How can Ukraine win? NATO and the US won't intervene militarily. But good for Zelensky and the Ukrainian people, they didn't roll over and cede control of Ukraine to Putin who would have installed a puppet government and then rolled out the same kind of fascist state that exists in Russia. Europe and the West are giving them armaments etc and I fully support this. It means Russia doesn't install the fascist state that would have happened if you got your way, "peace at any cost", which is the abject surrender of Ukraine to Putin. And it means that Russia will get less in any negotiated settlement than they would have if Ukraine just surrended.

4. An armistice? That's up to Russia, Putin, Ukraine and sure, the EU, NATO and the West can encourage movement towards this. Putin has no need or a desire for an armistice right now. It's not Russian citizens dying. Russian soldiers are eminently expendable. What's important to Putin is that now he not lose face, even though Russia will feel the negative effects of this war for decades. So good luck pushing for that "armistice" mate, the poor provoked dictator Putin will tell you to GAGF. But of course none of that is his fault, we boxed him into the corner of one of the biggest and most sparsely populated countries in the world, Russia.

5. Prevent the war? Yep, go back in time, assassinate Putin and install a democratic regime in Russia.

Here's the line from someone who understands Russia far better than you ever will, the current PM of Estonia. You can't appease an expansionist dictator - first rule of history - you know, the history that you think you have a monopoly on.

Kallas said there was a very clear pattern to Russian negotiations and it was best summed up by the former Soviet foreign minister Andrei Gromyko. “He said there are three basic rules of negotiating with the west. First, demand the maximum, do not meekly ask but demand. Second, present ultimatums, and third, do not give one inch of ground because there will always be someone in the west that will offer you something maybe half that you did not previously have. It is so characteristic of how they operate.



So now, your turn.

Tell us how you would end the war. What would you give Putin? What will you take away from the Ukranians to make Vladimir feel better? Be specific. What parts of Ukraine will you offer up? What political situation would you force Ukraine to accede to in order to satisfy Putin? What aspects of Ukranian defence will you, DavidSS of Australia, be willing to sacrifice?

Can't wait for your thoughts Mr Statecraft.
 
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Harry

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Mar 2, 2003
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Do the people of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions have a right to sovereignty?
 

AngryAnt

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Nov 25, 2004
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Do the people of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions have a right to sovereignty?

Sure do, maybe they should hold a referendum as has been suggested by Zelensky. Of course now that can't happen given your mates invasion of Ukraine.

Don't forget the annexation of Crimea too!!
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
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Ukraine will have to cede some territory, huh? But I thought self-determination has to happen regardless of context. It seems you are starting to realise that the actions of Ukraine are restricted.

Ok, so I ask if it is acceptable that the war goes on for another 8 months with people getting killed and cities being levelled, and that this is what the analysis from the USA tells us. You interpret this as me saying it is all the USA's fault, which I have never said, but whatever, you do like to misinterpret what I say. Either it is deliberate or you really are incapable of understanding complexity. Since I don't support Putin, but unlike those who wish the world was simple enough for them to understand, I do seek to explain the actions of both sides, I can't ask Putin anything really.

Ukraine can't win. If they hold off the Russians then Russia will demolish their cities, killing lots of people, hence the need for an armistice. But, sure, lets just not try.

So you now admit that the West installing Yeltsin who made sure Putin would succeed him, with the West's blessing, was not such a good idea? Maybe they should have followed Gorbachev's advice and tried to bring Russia into the fold instead of grinding Russia down. Then expand NATO and what message do you think Russia hears?

Now, before you get back on your high horse and accuse me of somehow supporting Putin, I don't - is that too difficult for you to understand?

DS
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,168
15,037
Maybe just relax and enjoy the footy for a while, your posting on this topic is becoming more and more hysterical.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
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Melbourne
Mate, when you claim that I 100% blame the USA for this war just because I quote their assessment, you should see what I have to reply to.

DS
 

AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,168
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Mate, when you claim that I 100% blame the USA for this war just because I quote their assessment, you should see what I have to reply to.

DS

You blame the US, NATO, Europe and Ukraine in some strange proportion known only to you.

You know who you don't blame?

Putin.
 
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DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
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Melbourne
You blame the US, NATO, Europe and Ukraine in some strange proportion known only to you.

You know who you don't blame?

Putin.

Putin and Russia are the aggressor, I have stated that many times and even called Putin a war criminal. That is bleedingly obvious. Why it needs to be repeated ad nauseum is beyond me because it solves precisely nothing and people continue to get killed. To say that Putin was provoked is not to say that Putin's actions are justified, you really do need to learn the difference between explaining something and supporting it.

How do you propose to end this? Or would it be fine to drag it out like Afghanistan and Iraq dragged out for years? Russia may not be able to occupy Ukraine effectively (just like the US et al could not effectively occupy Iraq and Afghanistan) and will end up losing the peace in the same way. But in the meantime they look very willing to level anything standing in Ukraine. The desperate need is to find a way to end the conflict. Ukraine cannot match Russia's military, they will not get direct help from the west who might give (or sell, the talk is of lend/lease from the US) them weapons, but the Russian's strength is artillery and we all know what that does. Putin reckons he will go to the G20 soon, this is an opportunity to confront Putin and get him to negotiate if he is there, do something to stop the killing.

Or don't and watch the war drag on.

DS
 

tigerdell

Hope springs infernal
Mar 29, 2014
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Putin and Russia are the aggressor, I have stated that many times and even called Putin a war criminal. That is bleedingly obvious. Why it needs to be repeated ad nauseum is beyond me because it solves precisely nothing and people continue to get killed. To say that Putin was provoked is not to say that Putin's actions are justified, you really do need to learn the difference between explaining something and supporting it.

How do you propose to end this? Or would it be fine to drag it out like Afghanistan and Iraq dragged out for years? Russia may not be able to occupy Ukraine effectively (just like the US et al could not effectively occupy Iraq and Afghanistan) and will end up losing the peace in the same way. But in the meantime they look very willing to level anything standing in Ukraine. The desperate need is to find a way to end the conflict. Ukraine cannot match Russia's military, they will not get direct help from the west who might give (or sell, the talk is of lend/lease from the US) them weapons, but the Russian's strength is artillery and we all know what that does. Putin reckons he will go to the G20 soon, this is an opportunity to confront Putin and get him to negotiate if he is there, do something to stop the killing.

Or don't and watch the war drag on.

DS
David part of the dilemma with this thread is the emphasis on how blame and responsibility lie with Russia.

The constant phrasing that Putin was provoked, that NATO's objective is solely to defeat Russia and should be disbanded, that the West also make war, or that Putin can claim a redline about another sovereign country's actions, all indicate that Putin's actions are justifiable.
And the West is culpable.
That is BS.

Then there is the supposed lack of desire for peace from the international community.
Which totally ignores the publicised activities by many leaders to persuade Russia to make peace. From the UN secretary General to the EU president to the French president and the pope.
Plus we wouldn't know how much backroom dealings are going on.
Its akin to a PRE thread crying that the club doesnt want to trade for players, without knowing we are in negotiations to get Lynch or Prestia. At some stage we gotta acknowledge that we don't know what's happening and trust the club.

I doubt there is anyone here who wants to see the war continue.
Its a sad situation.
 
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AngryAnt

Tiger Legend
Nov 25, 2004
27,168
15,037
Putin and Russia are the aggressor, I have stated that many times and even called Putin a war criminal. That is bleedingly obvious. Why it needs to be repeated ad nauseum is beyond me because it solves precisely nothing and people continue to get killed. To say that Putin was provoked is not to say that Putin's actions are justified, you really do need to learn the difference between explaining something and supporting it.

How do you propose to end this? Or would it be fine to drag it out like Afghanistan and Iraq dragged out for years? Russia may not be able to occupy Ukraine effectively (just like the US et al could not effectively occupy Iraq and Afghanistan) and will end up losing the peace in the same way. But in the meantime they look very willing to level anything standing in Ukraine. The desperate need is to find a way to end the conflict. Ukraine cannot match Russia's military, they will not get direct help from the west who might give (or sell, the talk is of lend/lease from the US) them weapons, but the Russian's strength is artillery and we all know what that does. Putin reckons he will go to the G20 soon, this is an opportunity to confront Putin and get him to negotiate if he is there, do something to stop the killing.

Or don't and watch the war drag on.

DS

The difference with Iraq and Afghanistan is that the US had the power to end those conflicts and chose not to. We have one guy in the world who could stop the war today - Putin. But he won't.

I've asked you many times what would satisfy Putin to end the war? What else do you think Ukraine should give up? Russia already militarily annexed Crimea - you never mention this, because it doesn't play into your narrative that Russia was "provoked" into this war. It's only a few years ago but you never refer to it despite being super hot on history. Still waiting for you tell us what will bring Russia to an "armistice" - the answer, right now, is of course NOTHING. He's prepared to devastate Ukraine, perpetrate more atrocities, destroy the Russian economy, sacrifice more Russian troops, cause Europe to move away from fossil fuels even faster and more specifically Russian oil and gas right now, which is the only thing apart from weapons that Russia produces.

So tell us - what would bring Putin to an "armistice" and end the war"? Tell us what else Ukraine should surrender up to Putin and his thugs? You are big on "carrots" so what else do you want the Ukranians to surrender to him? We'll wait.

It's not in Putin's interests to have this mythical armistice - he doesn't care what happens to Russia or the Ukraine 10 years from now because he'll likely be deposed, or dead, or both. This is why he invaded Ukraine now - not because of the "consistently stated Red Lines" so dear to you but because he is running out of time. If you want to quote the importance of history then you also have to be honest about the realities of the present.

You didn't respond to the statement from the President of Estonia who knows exactly that Putin only understands strength, and will only ruthlessly exploit weakness. You didn't respond to her quotation of Gromyko, which is exactly the way Soviet Russia acted and how Putin's kleptocracy acts. Now that's a lesson from history that you should learn.
 

DavidSSS

Tiger Legend
Dec 11, 2017
10,711
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Melbourne
If you want to know what Putin wants for an armistice, ask Putin (despite the complete lack of evidence of this you still seem to insist I am somehow Putin's confidant or that I support Putin, yet again showing that you continue to fail to understand the difference between seeking an explanation for the motives behind actions and support for such actions). Of course, you can choose not to ask Putin and the war continues and people die. There will be lots going on via back channels but something has to break the deadlock or the war continues, which seems to be what you want.

Not sure of your point on Iraq and Afghanistan, yes the USA could have stopped those wars, could have not started them in the first place too, just like Putin can stop this war and not started it in the first place too. Just like Russia, the US would not end those wars without some way out or after many years of carnage. If you want the war in Ukraine to continue for years, offer Russia no way out.

DS