Talking Politics

[Baloo]

The facts are that the Greens opposed the ETS. That was a major turning point in the climate change debate in Australia. It's gone nowhere from that point and it gave the Libs a great wedge which with Murdoch's reach allowed Abbott and now Morrison to make Australia the global bad boys of climate change.

The Greens were either not forward thinking enough to realise what blocking the ETS would do, or they saw some political gain by doing it. Either way, when it comes to Australia and tackling climate change, the Greens have to accept blame for significant the role they played in keeping Australia where it is now

 

[Brodders17]

The facts are that the Greens opposed the ETS. That was a major turning point in the climate change debate in Australia. It's gone nowhere from that point and it gave the Libs a great wedge which with Murdoch's reach allowed Abbott and now Morrison to make Australia the global bad boys of climate change.

The Greens were either not forward thinking enough to realise what blocking the ETS would do, or they saw some political gain by doing it. Either way, when it comes to Australia and tackling climate change, the Greens have to accept blame for significant the role they played in keeping Australia where it is now

The fact is after they blocked the ETS, the Greens negotiated with Labor for a better policy.
So it did go somewhere after they rejected the flawed ETS.

Blaming the Greens for Labor disastrous infighting that followed leading to the lost election, and for the Libs capitulation to the Queensland Nats, is ridiculous.
(as an aside the Greens primary vote rose 4% at the 2010 election, and they won the balance of power in the senate- it appears voters at the time agreed with their decision.)

 

[Baloo]

The fact is after they blocked the ETS, the Greens negotiated with Labor for a better policy.
So it did go somewhere after they rejected the flawed ETS.

Blaming the Greens for Labor disastrous infighting that followed leading to the lost election, and for the Libs capitulation to the Queensland Nats, is ridiculous.
(as an aside the Greens primary vote rose 4% at the 2010 election, and they won the balance of power in the senate- it appears voters at the time agreed with their decision.)

Many facts and you can focus on those that suit your narrative, I guess. But the undeniable facts are that Australia is still a climate change backwater nation. There was a chance a few years ago to bring in an ETS to begin the journey towards responsible climate policy, but the Greens stopped it. They may not have realised what their actions would cause, but there is no denying that it was a major turning point in Australia's climate policies.

As for your aside, it seems you're implying that their move was for politcal gain.

Here's a hypothetical for you, and simple yes or no answer is all it needs. Knowing what they know now, if the Greens could go back and change their decision to block the ALP's ETS, would they?

 

[Brodders17]

Many facts and you can focus on those that suit your narrative, I guess. But the undeniable facts are that Australia is still a climate change backwater nation. There was a chance a few years ago to bring in an ETS to begin the journey towards responsible climate policy, but the Greens stopped it. They may not have realised what their actions would cause, but there is no denying that it was a major turning point in Australia's climate policies.

As for your aside, it seems you're implying that their move was for politcal gain.

Here's a hypothetical for you, and simple yes or no answer is all it needs. Knowing what they know now, if the Greens could go back and change their decision to block the ALP's ETS, would they?

The undeniable fact is that Australia had the best climate change policies in our history after the Greens negotiated with Labor after the 2010 election. That was a better beginning towards responsible climate policy. The Greens are not responsible for what the Libs have done since. We started on our journey to becoming a climate change backwater nation when the Libs won the election.

The political gain was a good by-product for the Greens, but that political gain led to better policy.

I dont know the answer to your question. again blocking the flawed ETS led to a better policy after the election, so I would guess no, they wouldnt change their decision.

again, the Greens did not reject a policy- The ETS, for policy purity, because it wasnt exactly what they wanted, or for political reasons.

The rejected it because: According to Treasury modelling, under the CPRS there would have been no reduction in emissions for 25 years. It gave billions in handouts to coal companies and big polluters, while it locked in emissions targets that failed the science.

The Greens and CPRS | Australian Greens

greens.org.au

 

[Baloo]

The undeniable fact is that Australia had the best climate change policies in our history after the Greens negotiated with Labor after the 2010 election. That was a better beginning towards responsible climate policy. The Greens are not responsible for what the Libs have done since. We started on our journey to becoming a climate change backwater nation when the Libs won the election.

The political gain was a good by-product for the Greens, but that political gain led to better policy.

I dont know the answer to your question. again blocking the flawed ETS led to a better policy after the election, so I would guess no, they wouldnt change their decision.

again, the Greens did not reject a policy- The ETS, for policy purity, because it wasnt exactly what they wanted, or for political reasons.

The rejected it because: According to Treasury modelling, under the CPRS there would have been no reduction in emissions for 25 years. It gave billions in handouts to coal companies and big polluters, while it locked in emissions targets that failed the science.

The Greens and CPRS | Australian Greens

greens.org.au

Yeah, I'm not sure reading the Greens website for an unbiased view on the Greens actions is worth my time.

No doubt the Greens are doing everything they can to make people forget what they did and the consequences of it. It's pretty plain to see in hindsight what has transpired from that trigger point, no matter how they want to spin it now.

 

[Brodders17]

Yeah, I'm not sure reading the Greens website for an unbiased view on the Greens actions is worth my time.

No doubt the Greens are doing everything they can to make people forget what they did and the consequences of it. It's pretty plain to see in hindsight what has transpired from that trigger point, no matter how they want to spin it now.

Treasury modelling showed no reductions for 25 years.
The policy was going to give big $$$ to polluters.
There is no bias in either of those statements.

The consequence of the Greens blocking the ETS was a policy that led to greater action on climate change. again no spin. do you dispute this to be true?

the only spin and bias here is from those trying to pin the result of the next election, and the subsequent actions of the Libs on the Greens decision to block a flawed ETS.

 

[Baloo]

the only spin and bias here is from those trying to pin the result of the next election, and the subsequent actions of the Libs on the Greens decision to block a flawed ETS.

It was the trigger point from which things went to crap for Australian Politics and climate change in Australia. No one is saying everything that has happened since is the all the fault of the Greens, but it changed the direction of things and the ALP weren't good enough to recover from it.

I know you didn't want to answer my hypothetical, but FWIW I reckon with the wisdom of hindsight, the Greens would have done things differently when it came to the ETS. Unless of course they feel the slight increase in votes is worth 10years of being a climate change backwater.

 

[tigerman]

Here's a hypothetical for you, and simple yes or no answer is all it needs. Knowing what they know now, if the Greens could go back and change their decision to block the ALP's ETS, would they?

The card carrying Greens supporter who tried to give me a how to vote card, answered that question with an apology at the last election.

As I have said previously, I questioned him about the Greens not supporting the ETS, and when I asked him, is Australia and the world better off now, almost 10 years later, he apologised to me.

 

[DavidSSS]

I wouldn't apologise for blocking a policy which gave millions to fossil fuel polluters. Hardly a policy to reduce climate change, hardly being pure either - there comes a point where you have to draw a line. The first, very first, thing that the Australian government should have done years ago to begin to take action on climate change was to remove subsidies to fossil fuels. Yet, the Greens somehow get lambasted for blocking a policy which subsidised fossil fuels. It's like arguing that f***ing for virginity works.

DS

 

[Baloo]

Proper climate change was always going to be a long journey, step after step getting closer to where we shoukd be.

Greens made sure the government of the day stumbled instead of taking a step forward. That gave the Libs an opportunity to throw a noose around the government's neck and drag the country backwards.

What's amusing is the refusal of the Greens to accept any responsibility at all. Still claiming to be holier than thou when it comes to the environment and that their way is the only way.

 

[TT33]

I wouldn't apologise for blocking a policy which gave millions to fossil fuel polluters. Hardly a policy to reduce climate change, hardly being pure either - there comes a point where you have to draw a line. The first, very first, thing that the Australian government should have done years ago to begin to take action on climate change was to remove subsidies to fossil fuels. Yet, the Greens somehow get lambasted for blocking a policy which subsidised fossil fuels. It's like arguing that f***ing for virginity works.

DS

The Libs are still giving $millions to the fossil fuel industry so what did the Greens achieve?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In fact they sent the country backwards.

The Labour scheme may have been flawed, but look where we are now.

We have been screwed mightily by the LNP, Barnaby Joyce ffs. No one can say we're better off with this bunch of climate change denying idiots in charge.

 

[DavidSSS]

I agree the Greens achieved nothing, then again, they weren't in government. The ALP scheme proposed throwing millions at fossil fuel producers and the LNP just wanted business as usual.

Blaming a party with a few votes in the Senate for the failings of government makes no sense. Blame the parties in government, the parties with most of the seats, the parties with their hands on executive power.

DS

 

[DavidSSS]

It posted twice, I blame the LNP NBN!

 

[Baloo]

I agree the Greens achieved nothing, then again, they weren't in government. The ALP scheme proposed throwing millions at fossil fuel producers and the LNP just wanted business as usual.

Blaming a party with a few votes in the Senate for the failings of government makes no sense. Blame the parties in government, the parties with most of the seats, the parties with their hands on executive power.

DS

The Greens blocked the ETS. That started a move backwards for climate change in Australia. If you can't accept some blame for where we are on the Greens, then you're just not looking at history with an open mind.

 

[spook]

I agree the Greens achieved nothing, then again, they weren't in government. The ALP scheme proposed throwing millions at fossil fuel producers and the LNP just wanted business as usual.

Blaming a party with a few votes in the Senate for the failings of government makes no sense. Blame the parties in government, the parties with most of the seats, the parties with their hands on executive power.

DS

The Greens sided with the LNP to defeat the ETS in the Senate, it makes total sense to blame them for that. That attitude is typical of the Greens, though: "Give us power but don't hold us accountable for our actions!"

 

[DavidSSS]

I accept no blame on the part of a political party I have nothing to do with.

But I don't disagree with opposing a policy which was sh1t.

DS

 

[Brodders17]

The Greens blocked the ETS. That started a move backwards for climate change in Australia.

Again this is wrong.
After the next election, Australia made it biggest move forward in its response to climate change. After the 2010 election we actually had policies that would lead to a reduction in emissions, thanks to Labor and the Greens.
this policy remained in place until the Libs *smile* it.

 

[Baloo]

I accept no blame on the part of a political party I have nothing to do with.

But I don't disagree with opposing a policy which was sh1t.

DS

The point is that you refuse to afford any blame on the Greens for where we are today as a result of the ETS blocking.

 

[Baloo]

Again this is wrong.
After the next election, Australia made it biggest move forward in its response to climate change. After the 2010 election we actually had policies that would lead to a reduction in emissions, thanks to Labor and the Greens.
this policy remained in place until the Libs *smile* it.

An ETS mechanism was a key plank to drive proper climate change. With that mechanism any policy was going to struggle in Australia. Labor again tried to introduce a mechanism to make climate change a financial advantage for business by the Libs and Murdoch managed to sell that as another Tax which ultimately killed off the ALP government.

As above, you if can't accept any blame whatsoever on the Greens' block of the ETA for where we are today in climate change, then you're not trying.

 

[tigerman]

The Greens sided with the LNP to defeat the ETS in the Senate, it makes total sense to blame them for that. That attitude is typical of the Greens, though: "Give us power but don't hold us accountable for our actions!"

And after not supporting the ETS legislation, Bob Brown and the Greens had the hide to criticise Rudd and Labor for caving in to Tony Abbott and the Libs when they put the ETS on the back burner.
Bob Brown knew what they had done, he quit the Greens not long after.

What really annoyed me at the time, I had been starting to lean toward the Greens.