The Geelong Cants

[jb03]

They just can’t stop themselves can they?

So many things wrong with this proposal.
There was no actual grand final played back in the period they’re talking about (1870-1897), the premier was the team that had the most match points, including tour games and games against non senior teams.*
Some teams played more games than others!
In fact, the final ladder was often based on consensus among the football media of the day.*
A final system wasn’t part of the VFA until 1903 (1901 in the VFL) when they adopted the Argus system, which has its own issues.

Also doesn’t consider the VFA grand finals from teams before they joined the VFL:
2 for Richmond, 6 for North Melbourne and 9 for Footscray!

With all those problems, I still wouldn’t be surprised if Gill gave a massive parting gift to the sooks at corio…
They can gagf

Carter out to right the footy record, not rewrite it

The AFL has not shut the book on a decade-long campaign by former Geelong president Colin Carter to revise the game’s history in a way that would deliver the Cats an extra seven premierships and promote Carlton to the top of the flag table outright.

www.theage.com.au

*More info on early vfa

https://www.hardballget.net/l-vfa-vfl-finals-grand-finals.html

That nob brings this crap up every year or two. Can't believe it got a run in the papers yet again.

 

[TigerPort]

If that got the ok then that would fire Port up to have their 270 premierships recognised

 

[Legends of 2017]

That nob brings this crap up every year or two. Can't believe it got a run in the papers yet again.

I heard this dipshit carter briefly on the radio crapping on about “irrefutable proof” about something or other about this.
Here is the irrefutable proof that he needs to know. Yes, they won those flags. Yes, they won those flags in a competition called the VFA. Yes, a few of those clubs then left the VFA to form a new league called the VFL. No, that competition wasn’t a continuation of the VFA but a completely brand new league whose history began in 1897. To argue that then flags won in the VFL shouldn’t count in the AFL if we don’t include those won in the VFA is disingenuous because the AFL is a continuation of the VFL ( with a rebranding and expansion). The AFL didn’t breakaway from the VFL.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I heard this dipshit carter briefly on the radio crapping on about “irrefutable proof” about something or other about this.
Here is the irrefutable proof that he needs to know. Yes, they won those flags. Yes, they won those flags in a competition called the VFA. Yes, a few of those clubs then left the VFA to form a new league called the VFL. No, that competition wasn’t a continuation of the VFA but a completely brand new league whose history began in 1897. To argue that then flags won in the VFL shouldn’t count in the AFL if we don’t include those won in the VFA is disingenuous because the AFL is a continuation of the VFL ( with a rebranding and expansion). The AFL didn’t breakaway from the VFL.

Fair points about the continuation of the competitions. But Geelong didn’t win any “flags” at all in the VFA. There was no flag to win, clubs affiliated with the VFA just played matches against whatever opposition they could organise, some of the opposition teams were also senior VFA teams, some were junior VFA teams and some were not VFA teams at all. I imagine this was not totally different to the way international cricket was organised prior to the Test Championship and before that 50 & 20 over World Cups where teams began competing for titles. I imagine Geelong teams often played against teams like Barwon, Ballarat, South Ballarat, Ballarat Imperial, who were at times affiliated with the VFA in those earlier years. And they would have played against many other country based teams in the years they are now trying to claim AFL recognised flags for. So prior to 1877 there wasn’t even a VFA. 1877-1887 there was a VFA but it did not run a credible competition for a Premiership. There is no way these *smile* can now claim any sort of Premiership over other clubs who did not even know they were competing for a title, and doubtless would have organised more matches or pushed for a proper fair fixture if they were competing for Premierships during this era.

I am all for the history of the game being recognised, as most modern supporters imo know far too little of the game’s great history. But that doesn’t mean we should start re-writing history to suit the egos of certain people with parochial interests. You cannot credibly play what amounted to a series of friendlies against random and often obscure teams and say you won what should now be recognised as flags in the process. As I said in my earlier posts, 1888-1896 yes, the clubs were competing for a title and the winner was the best team in the state. But I doubt that would suit Geelong to recognise only the years that should be recognised - because they did not win anything in those years.

 

[Legends of 2017]

Fair points about the continuation of the competitions. But Geelong didn’t win any “flags” at all in the VFA. There was no flag to win, clubs affiliated with the VFA just played matches against whatever opposition they could organise, some of the opposition teams were also senior VFA teams, some were junior VFA teams and some were not VFA teams at all. I imagine this was not totally different to the way international cricket was organised prior to the Test Championship and before that 50 & 20 over World Cups where teams began competing for titles. I imagine Geelong teams often played against teams like Barwon, Ballarat, South Ballarat, Ballarat Imperial, who were at times affiliated with the VFA in those earlier years. And they would have played against many other country based teams in the years they are now trying to claim AFL recognised flags for. So prior to 1877 there wasn’t even a VFA. 1877-1887 there was a VFA but it did not run a credible competition for a Premiership. There is no way these *smile* can now claim any sort of Premiership over other clubs who did not even know they were competing for a title, and doubtless would have organised more matches or pushed for a proper fair fixture if they were competing for Premierships during this era.

I am all for the history of the game being recognised, as most modern supporters imo know far too little of the game’s great history. But that doesn’t mean we should start re-writing history to suit the egos of certain people with parochial interests. You cannot credibly play what amounted to a series of friendlies against random and often obscure teams and say you won what should now be recognised as flags in the process. As I said in my earlier posts, 1888-1896 yes, the clubs were competing for a title and the winner was the best team in the state. But I doubt that would suit Geelong to recognise only the years that should be recognised - because they did not win anything in those years.

Fair points

 

[Brodders17]

Here is Wiki's take on the 1886 season:

Club senior records[edit]​

The below table details the playing records of the fifteen clubs in all matches during the 1886 season. Two sets of results are given:

• Senior results: based only upon games played against other VFA senior clubs
• Total results: including senior games, and games against intercolonial, up-country and junior clubs.

The clubs are listed in the order in which they were ranked in the Sportsman newspaper. The VFA had no formal process by which the clubs were ranked, so the below order should be considered indicative only, particularly since the fixturing of matches was not standardised; this was more noticeably the case in the 1886 season than in other seasons, as the five new senior clubs played few matches against the stronger long-established clubs.

South Williamstown, for example, finished with a positive record of 6–3–5 against senior clubs in its first season, but achieved it without playing any of the teams ranked in the top five by the Sportsman. The top three placings were later acknowledged in publications including the Football Record and are considered official.[4]

	TEAM	P	W	L	D	GF	GA	P	W	L	D	GF	GA
	Senior Results	Total Results
1886 VFA Results
1	Geelong (P)	17	15	0	2	128	23	25	23	0	2	199	51
2	South Melbourne	20	17	1	2	97	46	22	19	1	2	119	51
3	Carlton	20	13	6	1	112	77	22	15	6	1	125	80
	Melbourne	19	10	8	1	65	59	24	13	10	1	79	75
	Williamstown	23	11	10	2	78	83	25	13	10	2	88	84
	Fitzroy	21	10	9	2	73	66	23	10	11	2	77	73
	Port Melbourne	19	9	6	4	65	44	23	12	7	4	82	57
	South Williamstown	14	6	3	5	53	39	19	10	3	6	70	46
	Hotham	20	7	7	6	62	70	21	8	7	6	68	78
	St Kilda	17	6	9	2	51	96	21	6	11	4	60	109
	Essendon	18	6	11	1	55	79	22	7	13	2	61	86
	Richmond	21	5	15	1	47	87	23	5	17	1	52	96
	Prahran	13	3	8	2	32	62	18	6	8	4	57	78
	Footscray	16	2	9	5	29	50	18	3	9	6	34	56
	University	20	0	18	2	28	88	21	1	18	2	34	91
Key: P = Played, W = Won, L = Lost, D = Drawn, GF = Goals For, GA = Goals Against, (P) = Premiers	Source:[5]

The Leader newspaper included the three Ballarat-based teams among its final standings. The newspaper listed South Ballarat, with a senior record of 13–4–1, ahead of Carlton as having the third-best record in the colony, but noted that the club's weak fixture (playing half of its games against the other Ballarat clubs, and most of its metropolitan games against weaker clubs) meant that it should not be entitled to third place.[2] The Ballarat-based clubs' senior records are given below.

	TEAM	P	W	L	D	GF	GA
1886 VFA Results – Ballarat clubs
	South Ballarat	18	13	4	1	88	43
	Ballarat Imperial	12	3	7	2	42	59
	Ballarat	17	2	12	3	33	71
Key: P = Played, W = Won, L = Lost, D = Drawn, GF = Goals For, GA = Goals Against	Source:[2]

​

 

[TigerMasochist]

Here is Wiki's take on the 1886 season:

Club senior records[edit]​

The below table details the playing records of the fifteen clubs in all matches during the 1886 season. Two sets of results are given:

• Senior results: based only upon games played against other VFA senior clubs
• Total results: including senior games, and games against intercolonial, up-country and junior clubs.

The clubs are listed in the order in which they were ranked in the Sportsman newspaper. The VFA had no formal process by which the clubs were ranked, so the below order should be considered indicative only, particularly since the fixturing of matches was not standardised; this was more noticeably the case in the 1886 season than in other seasons, as the five new senior clubs played few matches against the stronger long-established clubs.

South Williamstown, for example, finished with a positive record of 6–3–5 against senior clubs in its first season, but achieved it without playing any of the teams ranked in the top five by the Sportsman. The top three placings were later acknowledged in publications including the Football Record and are considered official.[4]

	Senior Results	Total Results
	TEAM	P	W	L	D	GF	GA	P	W	L	D	GF	GA
1886 VFA Results
1	Geelong (P)	17	15	0	2	128	23	25	23	0	2	199	51
2	South Melbourne	20	17	1	2	97	46	22	19	1	2	119	51
3	Carlton	20	13	6	1	112	77	22	15	6	1	125	80
	Melbourne	19	10	8	1	65	59	24	13	10	1	79	75
	Williamstown	23	11	10	2	78	83	25	13	10	2	88	84
	Fitzroy	21	10	9	2	73	66	23	10	11	2	77	73
	Port Melbourne	19	9	6	4	65	44	23	12	7	4	82	57
	South Williamstown	14	6	3	5	53	39	19	10	3	6	70	46
	Hotham	20	7	7	6	62	70	21	8	7	6	68	78
	St Kilda	17	6	9	2	51	96	21	6	11	4	60	109
	Essendon	18	6	11	1	55	79	22	7	13	2	61	86
	Richmond	21	5	15	1	47	87	23	5	17	1	52	96
	Prahran	13	3	8	2	32	62	18	6	8	4	57	78
	Footscray	16	2	9	5	29	50	18	3	9	6	34	56
	University	20	0	18	2	28	88	21	1	18	2	34	91
Key: P = Played, W = Won, L = Lost, D = Drawn, GF = Goals For, GA = Goals Against, (P) = Premiers	Source:[5]

The Leader newspaper included the three Ballarat-based teams among its final standings. The newspaper listed South Ballarat, with a senior record of 13–4–1, ahead of Carlton as having the third-best record in the colony, but noted that the club's weak fixture (playing half of its games against the other Ballarat clubs, and most of its metropolitan games against weaker clubs) meant that it should not be entitled to third place.[2] The Ballarat-based clubs' senior records are given below.

	TEAM	P	W	L	D	GF	GA
1886 VFA Results – Ballarat clubs
	South Ballarat	18	13	4	1	88	43
	Ballarat Imperial	12	3	7	2	42	59
	Ballarat	17	2	12	3	33	71
Key: P = Played, W = Won, L = Lost, D = Drawn, GF = Goals For, GA = Goals Against	Source:[2]

​

So some clubs played over 20 games for the year while others played thirteen or fourteen, yet some old fart of a Moggies dribbler thinks they're entitled to claim premierships from a Mickey Mouse competition. Phhhht.

 

[ToraToraTora]

Once again, as ever, there is only one side I take out a very big red marker for....R7 it is.

 

[Jonesracing82]

That nob brings this crap up every year or two. Can't believe it got a run in the papers yet again.

He's even written a book about it

 

[Jonesracing82]

Fair points about the continuation of the competitions. But Geelong didn’t win any “flags” at all in the VFA. There was no flag to win, clubs affiliated with the VFA just played matches against whatever opposition they could organise, some of the opposition teams were also senior VFA teams, some were junior VFA teams and some were not VFA teams at all. I imagine this was not totally different to the way international cricket was organised prior to the Test Championship and before that 50 & 20 over World Cups where teams began competing for titles. I imagine Geelong teams often played against teams like Barwon, Ballarat, South Ballarat, Ballarat Imperial, who were at times affiliated with the VFA in those earlier years. And they would have played against many other country based teams in the years they are now trying to claim AFL recognised flags for. So prior to 1877 there wasn’t even a VFA. 1877-1887 there was a VFA but it did not run a credible competition for a Premiership. There is no way these *smile* can now claim any sort of Premiership over other clubs who did not even know they were competing for a title, and doubtless would have organised more matches or pushed for a proper fair fixture if they were competing for Premierships during this era.

I am all for the history of the game being recognised, as most modern supporters imo know far too little of the game’s great history. But that doesn’t mean we should start re-writing history to suit the egos of certain people with parochial interests. You cannot credibly play what amounted to a series of friendlies against random and often obscure teams and say you won what should now be recognised as flags in the process. As I said in my earlier posts, 1888-1896 yes, the clubs were competing for a title and the winner was the best team in the state. But I doubt that would suit Geelong to recognise only the years that should be recognised - because they did not win anything in those years.

In those days Geelong even played in a "Challenge Cup" which was between them & some other Clubs from the western suburbs. In the 1st 6 yrs of the VFA there were 3 Clubs (Carlton, Sth Yarra & i forget the other) who had a deal between them that the best performed of those 3 would be considered the Premier of that season/year. After that is when the "VFA" started a comp where all Clubs could be in contention to win it. As above it's a completely different competition, the "VFA" (bigger) Clubs joined the "VFL" as they no longer wanted to share gate takings with the also ran Clubs & it became an entirely new & rival comp to the VFA. Carter does indeed need a decent history lesson.

 

[Jonesracing82]

Once again, as ever, there is only one side I take out a very big red marker for....R7 it is.

After what went down last time, this time it's personal.

 

[taztiger4]

Once again, as ever, there is only one side I take out a very big red marker for....R7 it is.

What have the Suns ever done to you ?

Geesook are Rd 9

 

[ceehook2]

will he start claiming the first game ? at Batman Park was a Geelong premiership

 

[Willo]

will he start claiming the first game ? at Batman Park was a Geelong premiership

Or any game they had the lead in.

 

[Larrikin]

Time for the Tigers to have their own Look how great we are campaign and ask to have recognized Premierships in all levels ie Under 19's, Reserves, VFL and Senior.

The Tigers are on top when you count all these with 34 in total. Next best is Melbourne with 31 and Carlton with 30. The Tigers are the only team with the triple double of winning at least 10 premierships in each division. Wikipedia seems to count Richmond winning only 9 reserves Premierships as they deem that competition to have ended in 1999. Of course the Richmond reserves won a flag in 2019 in the VFL which would count as the 10th.

Not bad for a team that wasn't even one of the original VFL teams.

These premierships make more sense then the Mickey Mouse ones Geelong want counted when cars weren't even a thing and the competition was as random as me organising games between my mates.

 

[ceehook2]

so we are on a mission to get as many premierships for Geelong as possible
for the half time Auskick games , of course they can count the game in the middle where they wear the club colours , but what about the smaller games around the outside ?

 

[JimJessTorp]

so we are on a mission to get as many premierships for Geelong as possible
for the half time Auskick games , of course they can count the game in the middle where they wear the club colours , but what about the smaller games around the outside ?

*smile* me. Wynyard in the NW Football League in Tassie won the premiership in 2020. Wynyard's pretty close to Geelong compared to other Tasssie towns/cities. That should give Geelong another premiership I reckon.

 

[ToraToraTora]

What have the Suns ever done to you ?

Geesook are Rd 9

Doh.

 

[Jonesracing82]

Or any game they had the lead in.

'19 Prelimiership? '20 halftimeiership?

 

[Jonesracing82]

Let's just give them a Premiership for every season they ever entered in any comp ever! Even for ones they didn't enter!