Trades hall union rednecks... | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Trades hall union rednecks...

bairdy380

Beer friend me good...
Dec 9, 2004
1,792
1,201
An excellent response RT. We have had similar dealings with our union in that we attempted to share responsibilty by proposing that the very high pay increase put forward by the union group would be acceptable if the facility (all levels) met the corporate objectives. Pay increases would be linked to profit effectively.
End result is that the union outright rejected the plan adn subsequently we have been forced to lay off numerous personnel because of production inefficiencies and subsequent business loss.
Unfortunately there is a vocal minority who want to take all the gains but accept none of the responsibility. I find this very unfortunate and until this product of the militant 70's and 80's are gone from the union movement then there will never be a realistic industrial law package achieved in australia. The them vs us mentality on both sides will constantly hold positive progress.
 

johnson2richo2003

"Players stop improving is the day i leave."
Dec 19, 2002
15,189
0
I,ve calculated i would lose approx $250 per fortnight if i lost my shift/Weekend/overtime penalties if little Jonny gets his way.
Tell me little Jonny will the price of living come down to cover my loss?
Tell me Little Jonny who would pocket the $250 that i lose?
Fact Little Jonny if they do takeaway my conditions it will not increase the numbers of employee,s employed due to the new IR Laws.
Kiss my ass Jonny :p
 

poppa x

Tiger Legend
May 28, 2004
5,552
0
Mt Waverley
CptJonno2Madcow2005 said:
I,ve calculated i would lose approx $250 per fortnight if i lost my shift/Weekend/overtime penalties if little Jonny gets his way.
Tell me little Jonny will the price of living come down to cover my loss?
Tell me Little Jonny who would pocket the $250 that i lose?
Fact Little Jonny if they do takeaway my conditions it will not increase the numbers of employee,s employed due to the new IR Laws.
Kiss my ass Jonny :p

Are you a good hardworking loyal worker?
Will your boss miss you if you told him to shove it?
Tell the boss you want the same deal or you leave.
Then go get another job with the $'s you need.  The jobs exist - it's a "workers market" at the moment.  Bosses are finding it real hard to get good staff.
 

jb03

Tiger Legend
Jan 28, 2004
33,856
12,108
Melbourne
CptJonno2Madcow2005 said:
I,ve calculated i would lose approx $250 per fortnight if i lost my shift/Weekend/overtime penalties if little Jonny gets his way.
Tell me little Jonny will the price of living come down to cover my loss?
Tell me Little Jonny who would pocket the $250 that i lose?
Fact Little Jonny if they do takeaway my conditions it will not increase the numbers of employee,s employed due to the new IR Laws.
Kiss my ass Jonny :p

I think you should pay back all the money from the penalties you've been overpaid all these years skip. ;D
 

johnson2richo2003

"Players stop improving is the day i leave."
Dec 19, 2002
15,189
0
jb03 said:
I think you should pay back all the money from the penalties you've been overpaid all these years skip. ;D
I.ll gladly pay up providing you do the right thing come June 30 when you lodge your tax return JB.I bet you,d have more to lose than me ;D :hihi :hihi :hihi
 

tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
23,487
11,639
RemoteTiger said:
Also in this great state we pay a land tax on any investment property we own - my mother-in-law owns a beach house in the northern suburbs of Sydney which she purchased in the 1970's - the land value is now around $3m - her land taxes to the State Government which are over and above the normal Water Rates and Taxes for the Local Shire Council, are $28,000 per year - she needs a bloody lot of rent just to cover the tax. I myself bought a beach house on the south coast of NSW back in 1993 - I was paying around $1,500 per annum in Land Taxes to the State Government - in 13 years that tax has increased to $13,989 pa.

geez, sad story remote.  my heart bleeds.  Begs the question, why not sell the houses?  We all know the answer.  These taxes are designed to discourage investment in the stagnant, unproductive area of housing.  Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against having an investment house and making some dough, I've done it myself, but I made $200K profit, of which the government took $30K.  I was happy to pay the tax.  I made the money from DOING NOTHING.  NOTHING RT.  Simply by jagging the timing and haveing the money to spend in the first place.  Instead of winging about $13K land tax, you should be rapt in what sounds to me like a 7 figure profit, at least a big 6 anyway.  The most important part of the story you haven't told us is that if the tax has gone from $1500 to $13K, the property has done very nicely over that period.

Any goose can turn a small fortune into a big one RT, ANY GOOSE, the hard part is getting the small fortune together in the first place, these taxes are designed to even things up for the people who never do.  I don't have any problem with that whatsoever. What I do have a problem with is people who do very well in this great country and accumulate a nice pile, (I don't have anything against that part) then winge about the tax (thats the part that gets to me). The reason why the country is so great in the first place is because of the services and infrastructure that our taxes pay for.
 

Rosy

Tiger Legend
Mar 27, 2003
54,348
31
tigersnake said:
[Any goose can turn a small fortune into a big one RT, ANY GOOSE, the hard part is getting the small fortune together in the first place,

I'm a goose. How do I do it ts?
 

tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
23,487
11,639
rosy23 said:
tigersnake said:
[Any goose can turn a small fortune into a big one RT, ANY GOOSE, the hard part is getting the small fortune together in the first place,

I'm a goose.  How do I do it ts?

If you've got a small fortune its easy rosy.  easy peasy.  getting the small fortune together isn't though, that the tough part.

it works exponentially:

getting a small fortune together - tough
turning a small fortune into a big fortune - pretty easy
turning a big fortune into a gigantic fortune - even easier, etc

I'll give a clear cut, well known example. During the height ot the dot com boom, an IT start up would list, Melbourne IT for example, every bozo and their dog knew that it would probably skyrocket on the issue day, and it did, went from $2 to $18 in a couple of days. But heres the thing, you or I couldn't buy shares, you had to be an important customer of one of the stockbroking firms selling the shares, ie, be very rich already.

When the realestate boom was starting up, here in Bris at leats, any fool could see that houses were undervalued. Rents were way higher than repayments. I bought a house and did well, but if I'd had a million I would have bought 5, no question, see what I mean?
 

tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
23,487
11,639
CptJonno2Madcow2005 said:
I,ve calculated i would lose approx $250 per fortnight if i lost my shift/Weekend/overtime penalties if little Jonny gets his way.
Tell me little Jonny will the price of living come down to cover my loss?
Tell me Little Jonny who would pocket the $250 that i lose?
Fact Little Jonny if they do takeaway my conditions it will not increase the numbers of employee,s employed due to the new IR Laws.
Kiss my ass Jonny :p

this on the other hand is a legitimate winge, and underlines my point about how hard it is to make the small fortune.
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
brigadiertiger said:
Liverpool said:
RemoteTiger,
Interesting post....I think a lot has to do with what industry you're in as well.
One of my early jobs was to run a factory....3 shifts, 24 hours a day production, 30+ workers.
We churned out plastic components by the thousands.
Then the workers assembled these components into a final product, packed them, and we sent them to the warehouse.
A production worker back then cost, gee, about $40,000 per year, taking into account wages, super, medicals, and any other add-ons.
One of these products made by us might cost the consumer $10 a pop....included in that was manufacturing costs (raw-materials, power for the machines, labour, etc) and then and some margin onto it, and you have your $10.
By reducing the production-line by 5 workers and getting those products imported in from China.....we immediately saved $200,000 per year on wages, etc.....we saved money on our machines, as all of a sudden we weren't making as much, and therefore, less maintenance to carry out on them.
Less costs on ordering raw-materials, less costs on power and water to keep the machines running for that time we would have had to make the goods.
With these savings, and getting the products made offshore, we were then able to drop the price to the consumer (while keeping the same margin), say down to $8....therefore gaining more of the market (as well as keeping our margin), more consumers buying our other products, and with no extra work (less if anything) from us here in Melbourne.
I'm not with that company any more, and last year I heard they were down to 7 production workers, and only a handful of products were still made by them...everything else had been shipped offshore to China and Taiwan.
They still kept a bare minimum of staff manufacturing goods here, so the company could still be classed as an "Australian-made manufacturer" and able to get tax-breaks.
But its no surprise to see why so much manufacturing from here gets moved offshore....and while I don't know your industry, and can't comment with any certainty whatsoever....the bloke you chatted to in the cafeteria might say the wages affecting the company are only 6.75%...but its the other off-shoots as well, such as power, maintenance, and also "research".
Like we might churn out, say 10,000+ per day of a certain product, but in China, there are factories there where the workers live on-site....they churn products out at 3 times the amount....so instead of the sales team saying "we're waiting on production to make them", and dealing with customers who might go elsewhere....you get a bulk-shipment or 3 into your stock, from China and you're right for a month or two, which means "happy customers".
For us at the time to match those type of production numbers, we would have had to invest in new machines, even robotics, which would have meant more workers given the arse anyway.
I guess the final question is....that product was $10 to buy and is now $8 to buy.....so its cheaper for the consumer....so by sacrificing jobs, everyone can buy cheaper goods......is it worth it?

And if everyone had that attitude then there would be no one working to be able to buy the $8 product.

BrigadierTiger,
That's fine mate....if thats what you reckon.
How about this then...:

The company I am employed with now...we manufacture a product that if someone wants it, it HAS to be manufactured here.
Therefore, we cannot send the manufacturing process offshore.
Being the world's biggest in this product, we lead the market when it comes to pricing of this product.

If we out our price up, say $4, our competitors know if they put their prices up just a fraction of what we do, they will be able to coerce some of our customers across to them.
We're prepared to lose some customers this way....but try and keep as many as we can by offsetting price, with quality, service, etc.

However, for less work, less raw material expenditure, less wear and tear on machinery....we'll make the same profit (if not more if we actually hang onto more customers than we thought)...purely because we've put the price of our product up $4.
If our production drops too much however, and we haven't got the work, we can always sack/redundancy-package some workers, and then not make the price-rise as high the following year.
Either way, the company will make a profit.
If it didn't make a profit, and we folded out Australian operations, there would be more than 3,000 workers laid-off.
So sometimes, a few have to be sacrificed for the greater good.

Even by NOT moving manufacturing offshore, production-workers can still lose their jobs.

So, as you can see....in "scenario 1"....the price of the product went down for customers and people lost their jobs.
In "scenario 2"...the price of the product went UP for the customer, and still workers can be let go.

That's business!
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
Ready said:
Liverpool, in your plastic components example: were the 20+ workers who were laid off able to find employment with a competitor? Did they possess complementary skills or were they able to acquire other skills through training that then allowed them to find employment with remuneration similar to what they received for making the plastic things?

In any case, it is the casualised and underemployed workforce employed in the service sector who will bear the brunt of the workplace changes.

Ready,
I don't think I would be degrading any production-workers reading this thread, to say that the majority I have worked with at this company, and other companies since, are not the most educated individuals out there.
Many dropped-out of high-school, and many have no ambition to further their careers either.
They are happy to have a position where they have no responsibility....they clock-in, do what they are told, receive their pay-checks, and clock-out.
With this type of background, the 20+ workers....some would have been able to find employment as a production-worker elsewhere, as that is all many of them knew what to do....so they had the experience.
I was able to get them all enrolled in a course...can't remember the name of it now...think it was through Aussie-Training" or it might have been the Batman TAFE...but they all got a certificate in production/machionery, which I thought was good.
Least they all had something to show prospective employers to go along with their resume...their experience...and I was more than happy to be a reference for them as well.
Some got jobs with more pay...some got jobs with less pay...and some got no jobs at all.

A handful of them were in their 50's and 60's....so they would have found it hard to get employment elsewhere.

However, having said that, what I have experienced in the last few years has been an increase in hiring people from the "grey hair brigade", as they are reliable and are usually very good workers.
As I have stated before, it is very hard to find good employees, especially when it comes to positions, like production work....as anyone with ambition won't hang around, and many that do hang around don't give a stuff abut their work, and purely don't care, fullstop....so if it means hiring someone in their 50's with a good attitude, work ethic, and is reliable....over some 20 year old who is lazy, shows no initiative, and is "sick" every second day....then I know who I would hire!

I agree with Nitro.....if you show an employer that you are a good, hard worker....then you will always have a job.
Any manager out there who sacks good workers, unless they REALLY have to, is just a poor manager, in my opinion...and just using their power as an ego trip.
That's why the unions, using the new IR laws as a scapegoat for any employee who gets fired, sacked, etc....is a joke.

Yes, there will be some poor managers out there who will sack people indiscriminately....I'm not denying that....but even under the 'old' system, I have been able to 'push' people out who were troublemakers, or had the wrong attitude.
All the new IR laws have done is make it a bit easier for employers to do this...but at the end of the day, if someone sacks you for no reason, then they aren't worth working for to begin with....and no good manager will sack good workers, whether they are casual, part-time, or full-timers.
Simple as that.
 

RemoteTiger

Woof!
Jul 29, 2004
4,646
98
tigersnake said:
RemoteTiger said:
Also in this great state we pay a land tax on any investment property we own - my mother-in-law owns a beach house in the northern suburbs of Sydney which she purchased in the 1970's - the land value is now around $3m - her land taxes to the State Government which are over and above the normal Water Rates and Taxes for the Local Shire Council, are $28,000 per year - she needs a bloody lot of rent just to cover the tax. I myself bought a beach house on the south coast of NSW back in 1993 - I was paying around $1,500 per annum in Land Taxes to the State Government - in 13 years that tax has increased to $13,989 pa.

geez, sad story remote.  my heart bleeds.  Begs the question, why not sell the houses?  We all know the answer.  These taxes are designed to discourage investment in the stagnant, unproductive area of housing.  Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against having an investment house and making some dough, I've done it myself, but I made $200K profit, of which the government took $30K.  I was happy to pay the tax.  I made the money from DOING NOTHING.  NOTHING RT.  Simply by jagging the timing and haveing the money to spend in the first place.  Instead of winging about $13K land tax, you should be rapt in what sounds to me like a 7 figure profit, at least a big 6 anyway.  The most important part of the story you haven't told us is that if the tax has gone from $1500 to $13K, the property has done very nicely over that period.

Any goose can turn a small fortune into a big one RT, ANY GOOSE, the hard part is getting the small fortune together in the first place, these taxes are designed to even things up for the people who never do.  I don't have any problem with that whatsoever.  What I do have a problem with is people who do very well in this great country and accumulate a nice pile, (I don't have anything against that part) then winge about the tax (thats the part that gets to me).  The reason why the country is so great in the first place is because of the services and infrastructure that our taxes pay for.

Thanking you for your bleeding heart - and I will whinge about taxes when the so called services and infrastructure that you talk about are that poor that we all know the taxes are going to line the pockets of fat cat politicians their aides and senior bureaucrats - wherever you live you maybe satisfied with the state of your roads the numbers in school classrooms the quality of your public transport, the poorly funded overworked public health system, the undermanned police forces and long delays in the courts.

Yes I am making a quid but unlike a lot in the higher echelons of the public sector I work long hours and turn a profit for my company.

Next your sit there and do nothing while you earned $200k which you paid $30k tax on - you and I know that is bulldust because you are constantly repairing maintaining and keeping you asset presentable - so lets get fair dinkum.

You might be comfortable with the way Australia and you state is being run - but I am bloody sure I am not - and I feel for my adult children who are just starting out in life - trying to put that small fortune together - back in my day and yours by the sound of it - it was far easier - infact there was money lying in the gutter all you really needed was a big broom to sweep it up. But today kids struggle to get a dollar to live by let alone put savings aside. The cost of rent - to pay for yours and mine investments - the cost of living - nah far harder than when you and I started out.

And thats all because of this great infrastructure you lord so much - the bloody politicians cannot create an environment for kids to get full time work - they only get part time jobs which pay *smile* and provide little in the area of advancement.

You might be comfortable in this great infrastructure but there are plenty who are not - my wife's and my charity work with underprivileged kids and their parent(s) tells me that.....
 

TigerForce

Tiger Legend
Apr 26, 2004
70,749
21,672
57
nitrotiger said:
Just gettin over a compressed disk in me bloody back Tigerdave otherwise Id be there NOW!
Thats why Im cross and cranky.....
Now to these bloody unionists.......geez its a pity ya  dont need a license to be a parent........
these unionist clowns are now tellin their rank and file(or defiled)
TO BRING THEIR KIDS ALONG!
Jesus Mary ans St Joseph!What purpose is that gonna serve?
What a bunch of tryhard desperate faggots.......thats like forcin ya kids to barrack for the same team you follow.......
I luv democracy.....but somntimes ya just gotta wonder at peoples mentality.......
The poor bloody diggers  and servicemen who served our country through 2 world wars with bravery and distinction must be pleadin with God to give em their lives and youth back so they can go and sort out  these cretins............ :-[

Hey nitro, were you the big fella with a Richmond t-shirt and a teal & purple back pack walking up Collins Street towards the X-ray clinic this morning ?  ;D
 

Ready

The future is unwritten
Aug 21, 2004
4,791
0
Richmond Vic 3121
RemoteTiger said:
- the bloody politicians cannot create an environment for kids to get full time work - they only get part time jobs which pay sh!t and provide little in the area of advancement.

In other words, underemployment in a casualised workforce.

Not to mention an economic boom driven by speculation in the housing sector.

And when the next recession hits....
 

tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
23,487
11,639
The ‘ol bureaucratic fat cats argument hey? Razor sharp piece of analysis there RT, you should apply for Naomi Robson’s job. Sure there’s overpaid lazy bureaucrats, but there are also hard workers, there are also lazy overpaid corporate workers, as well as workaholics. Any big complex system of any kind anywhere will always have a few that free ride and rort. Doesn’t mean the system as a whole isn’t working reasonably well and delivering benefits. Sure there’s always stuff ups, and things could be improved, but think about it, this country is great. We can send our kids to school, drive around in shiny new cars on mostly OK roads, we get crook we go to the doctor or hospital, and in spite of what Naomi Robson might say, we can do all that in safety. It takes a lot of dough to keep all that going.

The thing is, most people can’t evade tax, the people who do useful things for a fair wage like nurses and teachers. Whereas rich people can and do evade tax, real estate agents and property developers, Sol Trujillo and Jamie Packer, corporate lawyers. Tax evasion *smile* me. I have dream, where rich people are proud to pay a lot of tax, they’ll still be rich enough. I have no problem whatsoever with people building wealth here RT, none whatsoever, people should be encouraged to and be proud of it. What really *smile* me is people whinging about tax on excess wealth, and worse, evading it.

By the way, I didn’t work hard on my investment property at all, get real. I gave it a coat of paint, tidied up the kitchen, and fixed things when they broke, which wasn’t often. I do not call that hard work, took my time, plenty of smokos, Carlton Draught that is, and trips to the TAB, hard work? Money for jam more like.

Ps. I wonder if we’ll ever see a story on Today Tonight ‘Dilligent, Boring, Nerdy Bureaucrat gets horror intersection near primary school fixed’, because things like that happen all the time, believe it or not

By the way I agree with you on the crap casual jobs comment. Thing is JH is a political master, he’s introduced these laws, as Poppa said, at a time of high employment, the laws won’t bite until the inevitable slowdown.
 

RemoteTiger

Woof!
Jul 29, 2004
4,646
98
Pardon my ignorance but who is Naomi Robson?

Evasion of Tax is abhorent - limiting one's tax liability is legal and should be extended to all Australian taxpayers. Let you and I be honest Investment properties are a way of limiting one's tax liability!

IMO the system as a whole is failing the people of Australia - whether you are rich or poor - answer this

Why are there road tolls? - when for centuries (2 in fact) Australian Governments always built the roads - now we have private companies building expressways which we have to pay for each time we drive on them - why aren't our taxes still building roads? Particularly when the fuel excise was imposed exactly for that!

Other infrastructure highlights that our taxes built but are now being run by private corporations which are solely aimed at profit taking and not Australian Taxpayer satisfaction - electricity - wow haven't the Vics lead the way here - now we are all up to our ears in an un maintained network.

Telsta, Commonwealth Bank our freight railways - all built by Taxpayers money yet now we are paying through the nose for them.

Why are parents who can afford it and some that cannot - why are they sending their kids to private schools instead of the overcrowded classrooms and poorly maintained public schools - where some public schools cannot offer certain subjects due to a lack of facilities.

Once upon a time our taxes paid for this - not now - we have to pay higher taxes due to tax creep yet we get less for them then we have to pay private concerns for the services our taxes use to provide.

A simple question - where are our taxes going - what are the governments of Australia spending our taxes on? Because IMO it is not the infrastructure you laud about.

By the way - when was the last Federal Government large infrastructure project - the railway line from Adelaide to Darwin - maybe but then private funds are involved in that - the natural gas pipeline - thats 3 decades ago - the Snowy Mountain Scheme 1950s - the Great Ocean Road 1940s.

How you can say for the amount of increased taxes we are paying we are better off is beyond me. There is nothing to show for it..............
 

Liverpool

How did that Julia and Kevin thing work out? :)
Jan 24, 2005
9,054
1
Melbourne
tigersnake said:
The thing is, most people can’t evade tax, the people who do useful things for a fair wage like nurses and teachers.  Whereas rich people can and do evade tax, real estate agents and property developers, Sol Trujillo and Jamie Packer, corporate lawyers.  Tax evasion sh!ts me.  I have dream, where rich people are proud to pay a lot of tax, they’ll still be rich enough.  I have no problem whatsoever with people building wealth here RT, none whatsoever, people should be encouraged to and be proud of it.  What really sh!ts me is people whinging about tax on excess wealth, and worse, evading it.

Tigersnake,
Tax evasion *smile* me too, but I also don't think "rich people" should have to pay a lot of tax to prop up of the rest of the country either.
Why should people, who whether they worked their arses off through school/uni into a good paying position...or came up with an idea, innovation, or invention, and made a lot of money out of it....be "punished"?
Why?
Just because Joe Blow down the street went out partying on Saturday night and couldn't be bothered getting out of bed on Monday morning to roll into the factory?...or the bludger who smokes a bong in the morning and catches a tram to the nearest Centrelink to collect his payments at midday?
I think if you are going to punish people who have made themselves successful, or even been lucky enough to inherit a lot of money, then where is the incentive for people to do well in their lives?
If rich people have to pay a lot of tax....who is going to determine "rich enough"?
I think going down this path, is bordering on communism.


On a different note....nice work by the anti-IR law people for vandalising the MCG today! :mad:
Congratulations morons!!!
What a flop it turned out to be.....they were after 80,000-100,000....only 40,000 turned-up.
Taking into account we have..what...3-million people in Melbourne, and other large populations in nearby Ballarat, Geelong, and Gippsland.....40,000 is pathetic.
The only people who turned-up were the ones who just wanted a day off work...simple as that.
And where is the evidence of these mass sackings brought on by the new IR laws?
Unemployment is at its lowest in 25-30 years, even though we have had interest-rate hikes.
Its just another beat up by the Unions/ALP, to try and work the public into a frenzy, as thats the only way Fat-Cat Beazley has any hope of moving into the PM's chair.
 

jb03

Tiger Legend
Jan 28, 2004
33,856
12,108
Melbourne
They should hold the rally on the weekend to see how truly passionate people are about the cause. Attendance figures would be interesting.


What vandalism occurred?