Umpire farce - Getting worse by the minute! | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Umpire farce - Getting worse by the minute!

The Big Richo said:
I'll break my own rule about not engaging in discussions about umpiring for fear of copping a hiding to offer some thoughts.

Firstly, I think comparing us to any other team is flawed as a general principle. As has been widely spoken about by the experts, I think the manner in which we play is vastly different from any other side in the competition and any in the history of the game in fact.

Our successful period contains a lot of statistical anomalies that redefine key indicators for success in the game, we are completely unique as a side. In the specific instance of Collingwood, they are playing the same game as us in name only in many facets.

I have been giving this a bit of thought though and have been having a look at some specifics for individuals, which is really interesting data.

Here's something that jumps out at me straight away. Of our 64 free kick deficit this season, 44% or 29 free kicks come from three players, Dustin, Bolton and Stack. Put Lynch in and it becomes 58.46% or 38 free kicks.

When you look at the first three the common trait is taking on the tackler and I'll wager a huge percentage of those frees are for holding the ball and fair enough. Before anyone says yes but Dustin gets pinged anytime someone tackles him, you have to remember that attempting to break a tackle means you must legally dispose of the ball immediately if you are tackled and that is what brings him down occasionally. (That's why the Vlastuin one was correct last week by the way :help). I watch Dustin's game like a Hawk (I was admonishing him for giving away 50 last week well before the umpire called it) and am the first to spot any time he is hard done by but generally when he gets caught, he is caught. It's a risk/reward element of the way he plays.

When you look through the rest of our individual free kick tally, I see a lot of logic. A fierce tackler who attacks the body like Graham (12-19) is down, a less physical player like Short (8-6) is up.

An agressive defender who takes opposition on like Vlastuin (13-18) is down, your more risk averse defenders like Grimes (12-11) and Astbury (4-5) more even.
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Yeah that would make sense if the umps weren't deliberately cheating against us
 
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DavidSSS said:
There is a lot of talk about how the free kick count should not necessarily be even.

This is true, there are variations in the way different teams play and the umpires will never be perfect, but when the differential is so high over a 4 year period you get to the point where questions need to be asked.

This question needs to be turned around somewhat when the free kick differential gets to such ridiculous levels.

Rather than asking why the free kick count needs to be equal it is time to ask:
  • Can someone please explain how the way Collingwood plays is so different to the way Richmond, GWS and Hawthorn play that they receive so many more free kicks and we, along with GWS and Hawthorn, receive so many less.
  • Can they also explain the difference in the way Hawthorn played in 2016 and 2017 such that they had more even free kick ratios than in 2018, 2019 and 2020.

If everything else is equal the free kicks should also be close, varying across years and even across longer time periods, but fairly close to even. It is the glaring difference, year after year, which needs explaining, as this is the aberration from what should be normal.

So, who can provide this explanation?

I don't think this is conscious bias but I do think there is an issue and when you see the inconsistent umpiring every week the numbers make more sense.

DS
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This is only a theory.

An ex or current umpire who barracks for Collingwood has given the coaching staff or even worse, the players coaching in how to play for or avoid free kicks based on

the indicators the umpires look for when deciding free kicks.

e.g Collingwood are the only team I have seen when the player decided to throw the ball because to hand ball the ball would result in loss of possession, they clench

one of their fists when they throw it. This may be because the umpires are told to look for a clenched fist to decide whether to pay a free or not.

Diving is the specialty of Daicos and Brown and although this year they have had less success in drawing frees they still ply their trade.

Laying their head over in a tackle to try and make contact with the tacklers arm to draw a high free kick.

Defenders putting their hands on their opponents shoulders to stop them from jumping in a pack situation.

Contact in a marking contest sees a player out of position just throw himself out of the contest in the hope of fooling the umpire

Other teams have players who bend the rules but Collingwood seems to have a team that does it more than most.

They only have to either draw or avoid 2 free kicks a quarter to improve the result in their favour particularly if it is in the forward or defensive fifty.
 
The Big Richo said:
I guess I don't understand the argument that there shouldn't be a discrepancy. In every single statistical measure in football there is a team that is 1st and a team that is 18th with everyone else in between. In all of the other categories we accept that is it because of the skill or ability of the team, or the manner in which they play. Why are free kicks any different?

As for Dustin, I think you might find that phenomena has much to do with the lens you view the game through. I'm certain if you asked fans of those other teams they'll say their star gets crucified while players like Martin get away with everything.

I've often thought of doing an exercise in a game day thread where I try and look at the game through the eyes of the opposition and point out all errors against them but I've never been brave enough to weather the fire that would rain down on me. Maybe next season.....


That's a really good post and I think you are spot on with the issues the umpires battle with. I don't disagree with issues around consistency or think they are infallible by any means.

I think the Vlastuin example is a perfect snapshot of the challenge of umpiring though. To me, it was a clear case of forfeiting prior due to trying to bust a tackle followed by incorrect disposal. To you and many other posters, it was play on. I bet we could both argue for days and not budge our positions but the bloke in the centre had a split second and thousands of people yelling at him and had to make the call.

The Dustin 50 was the same. As soon as he kicked the ball I said out loud 'Bloody hell Dustin, now it's 50'. No question in my mind watching live, yet others saw different. The Hawkins/Balta/Soldo sandwich was the same.

A lot of people are so parochial they will just completely dismiss the opposing view (I've been called a lot of names that way), even when the independent official was against them as well, but I think any fair minded person would concede that there has to be at least something both ways in such contentious decisions, which makes the elusive consistency we all strive for very challenging to ever obtain.
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I’m fair when I watch a game much like my dad was. Not one eyed but fair.

We of course will beg to differ and that’s ok. We view things differently and that’s ok.

We view a decision and it’s interpretations differently and that’s fair too. I’m not going to shout you down, abuse you or belittle you. Not my style. With Robbo that was slightly different cause I felt he attacked our club , character and I do struggle at times to understand him as he mumbles , appears coherent. You called me out and I felt bad.

Yes with Dusty I think his status in the game is so high he is now adjudicated differently. He is prone to errors and what we term ‘ brain fades’ but that free kick , 50 against him wasn’t there. Again upon watching it last night ( the replay - agonisingly) it was a split second. Same time whistle went Dusty had kicked it. Benefit , feel for the game should be at times afforded to the player, not because it’s Dusty or Richmond BUT to the player.

We will disagree on that as we disagree on the Vlaustin ( just 2 examples of that night ) but that’s neither here or there.

No issue here.
Waiting.
 
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If everything else is equal, 2 football teams of the same level of talent and the same broad make-up will tend to win 50% of games each. It is when one team is more talented, or one team has a better game plan or the like that there will be a discrepancy.

If there is a discrepancy, if one team consistently beats another, or even just beats them in a particular stat, then there will be a reason and we can find an explanation for it. Richmond are not ranked highly for centre clearances - is this a coincidence? I think not, there are reasons for this, we don''t have stellar rucks, we don't value centre clearances so much, etc.

So, there is a discrepancy in free kicks:
  • Collingwood got 13 free kicks for every 10 they gave away in 2020.
  • Greater Western Sydney got 9.2 free kicks for every 10 they gave away in 2020.

What explains this?

All I am asking for is an explanation, I have deliberately chosen teams not including Richmond, so, as a neutral looking a both teams I have to say I cannot see any good reason why Collingwood get so many free kicks compared to GWS.

Also, free kicks are not the same as other stats, free kicks reflect not the playing of the game, but the adjudication of the game.

DS
 
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Don’t try to tell me we’re not umpired differently.
Twice tonight saints have kicked the ball away after the whistle and nothing. Compared to the two fifties we got paid against last week.
And there are TWO OF THE SAME UMPIRES out there!
WTF
 
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larabee said:
Don’t try to tell me we’re not umpired differently.
Twice tonight saints have kicked the ball away after the whistle and nothing. Compared to the two fifties we got paid against last week.
And there are TWO OF THE SAME UMPIRES out there!
WTF
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Despite that we won the free kick count as well as the game so double bubble!
 
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Anyone looked at the Butler goal at the end of the first? I have no issue with the umps call as clearly kick it before the siren however how long did it take the guy to press the button? Felt like 5 seconds after the clock disappeared from the screen.
 
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WesternTiger said:
Yeah a week to late though.
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They got Brisbane through, that's what the AFL wanted.
Who's Stkilda.
We still copped some beauties last night.
Broad deliberate
Baltas holding the ball
Cotchins hand ball then gets pinged holding it. Collingwood wouldn't get a possession if holding the ball was called like that for them.
Milocheck goal in the last qtr came from Thomas holding the ball longer then Cotchin.
 
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zippadeee said:
They got Brisbane through, that's what the AFL wanted.
Who's Stkilda.
We still copped some beauties last night.
Broad deliberate
Baltas holding the ball
Cotchins hand ball then gets pinged holding it. Collingwood wouldn't get a possession if holding the ball was called like that for them.
Milocheck goal in the last qtr came from Thomas holding the ball longer then Cotchin.
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The Balta one over the boundary? The ump paid it for incorrect disposal not HTB! He was over the line FFS. Out of play. How is that incorrect disposal?! They do my head in.
 
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Harry said:
Good to see our key fwds get some frees for once.
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But that’s it for now H. Won’t get one next week I’m afraid especially after the dirty Tommy beat up. Umps are primed to ignore infringements against the nasty Tigers
 
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