Palestine and Israel | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Palestine and Israel

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In this conflict Hamas without notice slaughtered innocent Israelis so they are the baddies therefore Israel are the good guys. Simple is it not for this conflict. Not interested in what has occurred since Israel became Israel in the Promised land.

You really have no idea do you?

You cannot look at any conflict without looking at the context, Israel's existence is only possible because of the dispossession of the lands the Palestinians have lived on for hundreds of years.

Israel was formed by removing innocent Palestinians from their land and killing a fair number of them in the process, hardly the "goodies". I know you find the idea of actually looking at the history and being informed too much of an effort, but your comments here have shifted from the merely ill-informed to the frankly laughable.

DS
 
You really have no idea do you?

You cannot look at any conflict without looking at the context, Israel's existence is only possible because of the dispossession of the lands the Palestinians have lived on for hundreds of years.



DS
Just out of curiosity over who supposedly owns what bit of turf. What are the boundaries of the patch that old mate Moses n his crew claimed as God's own promised land way back when? I'm thinking that'd be the original bit of turf everyone's fighting over, so was it just some random desert nomads roaming around way back then, when the Jews decided to claim the land, did Palestine and Palestinians even exist at the time? Tens of years, hundreds of years simply doesn't cut it in regard to this lot of hatred. It goes back thousands of years and it's extremely unlikely it will ever be resolved.
 
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Its not necessarily Isarel directly funding them. This is a pretty good article highlighting how they have assisted to fund Hamas, but using funds as a way to block any 2 state solution.

Thanks for the link.
So Israel didn’t and doesn’t fund Hamas at all. Cleared that up.
 
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Just out of curiosity over who supposedly owns what bit of turf. What are the boundaries of the patch that old mate Moses n his crew claimed as God's own promised land way back when? I'm thinking that'd be the original bit of turf everyone's fighting over, so was it just some random desert nomads roaming around way back then, when the Jews decided to claim the land, did Palestine and Palestinians even exist at the time? Tens of years, hundreds of years simply doesn't cut it in regard to this lot of hatred. It goes back thousands of years and it's extremely unlikely it will ever be resolved.
That’s an incredibly complicated answer and I would suggest you read the history rather than people posting it

Maybe this map from the economist magazine might help

2D39B920-5AE9-4A55-A032-9BF477D42310.jpeg

The other thing I would say is that to those who go back to the time of Moses I would ask a question. Does that mean that you also support the claims the Australian indigenous people may have to Australia ?
 
Thanks for the link.
So Israel didn’t and doesn’t fund Hamas at all. Cleared that up.
Some time ago ( 20 years or so) Israel was giving the reason of not engaging with the Palestinians in Gaza that Fatah was not elected and they would only deal with an elected government.
So they held elections and Hamas won, although anyone who knows about elections in that part of the world would have some scepticism about the quality of the elections.
Israel then refused to deal with Hamas.
There are hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli jails for the crime of consorting with a terrorist group when they were doing nothing more than dealing with an elected government, however unpalatable that government is. One of those people is Mohamed el-Halabi, the head of world vision in Gaza as an example.
The point is that if Israel had dealt with the Palestinians through the old PLO when the Oslo accords were signed and stuck with that deal there is a very strong argument to say that Hamas would have little or no power in Gaza.
I know a few people who have worked in Gaza and they hate Hamas but they have all said to me that the reason some people support them is desperation. So many see no hope.
A moderate government in Gaza willing to negotiate and implement the UN resolutions and agreements doesn’t suit Israel. I am convinced they want it all.
 
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Some time ago ( 20 years or so) Israel was giving the reason of not engaging with the Palestinians in Gaza that Fatah was not elected and they would only deal with an elected government.
So they held elections and Hamas won, although anyone who knows about elections in that part of the world would have some scepticism about the quality of the elections.
Israel then refused to deal with Hamas.
There are hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli jails for the crime of consorting with a terrorist group when they were doing nothing more than dealing with an elected government, however unpalatable that government is. One of those people is Mohamed el-Halabi, the head of world vision in Gaza as an example.
The point is that if Israel had dealt with the Palestinians through the old PLO when the Oslo accords were signed and stuck with that deal there is a very strong argument to say that Hamas would have little or no power in Gaza.
I know a few people who have worked in Gaza and they hate Hamas but they have all said to me that the reason some people support them is desperation. So many see no hope.
A moderate government in Gaza willing to negotiate and implement the UN resolutions and agreements doesn’t suit Israel. I am convinced they want it all.
They held elections & Hamas won therefore the Palestinians voted in a terrorist clique. Chickens have come home to roost & what is occurring now maybe would not have occurred if Hamas was not elected by the Palestinians. I assume the elections were held under the auspices of the UN & the result was a true vote of the Palestinian people.
 
In this conflict Hamas without notice slaughtered innocent Israelis so they are the baddies therefore Israel are the good guys. Simple is it not for this conflict. Not interested in what has occurred since Israel became Israel in the Promised land.
Yeah, the good guys

 
That’s an incredibly complicated answer and I would suggest you read the history rather than people posting it

Maybe this map from the economist magazine might help

View attachment 21199

The other thing I would say is that to those who go back to the time of Moses I would ask a question. Does that mean that you also support the claims the Australian indigenous people may have to Australia ?
Firstly, these maps aren't really worth a pinch of goat droppings as they're only relevant to the last 80 odd years of " civilized " intervention, the question I was posing was in regard to hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Secondly, also I wasn't supporting or denying the claims of anyone's rights to ownership of the lands whether it be Israel / Palestine or Indigenous Australians versus British settlement.
Yes indigenous peoples have some right of claim, but there was also some hundreds of varying tribes of nomadic type people basically roaming around generic areas of the country with simply verbal agreements as to who lived n controlled which areas at best, so the question then becomes who owned what bit. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence you sit. Somewhere roughly between the 1600's and 1800's there was a massive amount of exploration and colonization went on all over the world by the more technically advanced countries over the more tribal countries. Most countries and regions where this took place there's been fairly reasonable acceptance, growth, mutual development together especially over the last 40 to 50 years as people and societies have slowly come to accept that we're all equal and going to have to evolve together.

To my mind there's also a massive difference with the situation of Zionist Israel, surrounded by Islamic Arabic countries who simply loathe and detest one another to the core of their souls. To the difference of the so called advanced societies of the world going out and exploring, colonizing and developing the more tribal and " primitive " societies of the world hundreds of years ago. It gets kind of hard in a planet of now some 8 billion people with mobile phones, computers, rockets, jets etc etc to still be able to roam the countryside in your bare arse trying to poke a wombat with a pointy stick just so you can have some lunch. Like it or not, the world and humanity keeps trying to move forward, grow n develop. Refusing to move forward or being incapable of moving forward and keeping up with the rest of the world simply results in the ongoing dramas that are playing out at present.
 
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Go watch a superhero movie, reality is clearly too complicated for you.

This is not a simple situation of goodies and baddies, the real world rarely is.

As I said many pages ago, this is a very difficult problem. The Palestinians had their land taken from them and were kicked out and excluded. The Jews wanted a safe place to exist after hundreds of years of anti-semitism culminating in the Holocaust.

The Israelis have a case for a Jewish homeland, the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

The Palestinians must wonder why they have to pay for the crimes of Europeans.

The Jews must wonder why they keep getting singled out for racist treatment.

The religious justification for Israel holds no currency for me, but the fact is Israel exists and it exists on Palestinian land.

The 2 state solution is an excuse to kick the can down the road and has given Israel the time and space to keep encroaching on the occupied territories.

A 1 state solution is the only real solution, both the Israelis and Palestinians are on the same plot of land, they have to find a way to co-exist. 2 states would just lead to rivalry and possible conflict, 1 state is the only way they can co-exist. Plenty on both sides claiming the whole area for either side and attitudes must change before they can co-exist.

This is not easy, and clearly not possible in the present. But the reality in the present is that the overwhelmingly more powerful side of this dispute are the Israelis and that puts more responsibility on them. Israel has the ability to wipe out Gaza and it looks like they are going a fair way towards doing that. Their actions are clearly directly responsible for thousands of civilian deaths and they have to be made responsible for what they are doing.

DS
 
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Firstly, these maps aren't really worth a pinch of goat droppings as they're only relevant to the last 80 odd years of " civilized " intervention, the question I was posing was in regard to hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Secondly, also I wasn't supporting or denying the claims of anyone's rights to ownership of the lands whether it be Israel / Palestine or Indigenous Australians versus British settlement.
Yes indigenous peoples have some right of claim, but there was also some hundreds of varying tribes of nomadic type people basically roaming around generic areas of the country with simply verbal agreements as to who lived n controlled which areas at best, so the question then becomes who owned what bit. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence you sit. Somewhere roughly between the 1600's and 1800's there was a massive amount of exploration and colonization went on all over the world by the more technically advanced countries over the more tribal countries. Most countries and regions where this took place there's been fairly reasonable acceptance, growth, mutual development together especially over the last 40 to 50 years as people and societies have slowly come to accept that we're all equal and going to have to evolve together.

To my mind there's also a massive difference with the situation of Zionist Israel, surrounded by Islamic Arabic countries who simply loathe and detest one another to the core of their souls. To the difference of the so called advanced societies of the world going out and exploring, colonizing and developing the more tribal and " primitive " societies of the world hundreds of years ago. It gets kind of hard in a planet of now some 8 billion people with mobile phones, computers, rockets, jets etc etc to still be able to roam the countryside in your bare arse trying to poke a wombat with a pointy stick just so you can have some lunch. Like it or not, the world and humanity keeps trying to move forward, grow n develop. Refusing to move forward or being incapable of moving forward and keeping up with the rest of the world simply results in the ongoing dramas that are playing out at present.
TM the maps are relevant, mainly because somewhere between the 3rd and the 4th map is what was agreed to in the Oslo accords in 1993. It was the basis of the 2 state solution.
Jews have always lived in Palestine with Palestinians. The difference now is that the European Jews migrated there before and after the holocaust and from that time grew the desire for the Zionist philosophy of a Jewish homeland. The Palestinians are paying the price for the sins of the Europeans.
What they have done in the West Bank is the equivalent of the Kulin nation ( the inhabitants of what is now called Melbourne) coming to your house and booting you out. Even if you accept that there are disparate first peoples nations in Australia, the Kulin nation were the original inhabitants of Melbourne
 
Go watch a superhero movie, reality is clearly too complicated for you.

This is not a simple situation of goodies and baddies, the real world rarely is.

As I said many pages ago, this is a very difficult problem. The Palestinians had their land taken from them and were kicked out and excluded. The Jews wanted a safe place to exist after hundreds of years of anti-semitism culminating in the Holocaust.

The Israelis have a case for a Jewish homeland, the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

The Palestinians must wonder why they have to pay for the crimes of Europeans.

The Jews must wonder why they keep getting singled out for racist treatment.

The religious justification for Israel holds no currency for me, but the fact is Israel exists and it exists on Palestinian land.

The 2 state solution is an excuse to kick the can down the road and has given Israel the time and space to keep encroaching on the occupied territories.

A 1 state solution is the only real solution, both the Israelis and Palestinians are on the same plot of land, they have to find a way to co-exist. 2 states would just lead to rivalry and possible conflict, 1 state is the only way they can co-exist. Plenty on both sides claiming the whole area for either side and attitudes must change before they can co-exist.

This is not easy, and clearly not possible in the present. But the reality in the present is that the overwhelmingly more powerful side of this dispute are the Israelis and that puts more responsibility on them. Israel has the ability to wipe out Gaza and it looks like they are going a fair way towards doing that. Their actions are clearly directly responsible for thousands of civilian deaths and they have to be made responsible for what they are doing.

DS
The reality is the Palestinians opted to let Hamas dictate their life & now are paying for their foolishness. Play with fire you are going to get burnt . That old song by Vaughan De Leath " Stay in your own backyard " . Hamas should add to that "Wish I had of stayed in our backyard ".
 
The reality is the Palestinians opted to let Hamas dictate their life & now are paying for their foolishness. Play with fire you are going to get burnt . That old song by Vaughan De Leath " Stay in your own backyard " . Hamas should add to that "Wish I had of stayed in our backyard ".

You seem to want simple outcomes to very complex problems. Maybe read a bit more.



1 - As you can see from the snopes articles. The 2006 election promises of Hamas were lies. You even see that from a survey done after the 2006 election of what Palestinians wanted. They wanted closer ties with Israel. They wanted to recognise Israel, they wanted Israel to recognise Palestine and they wanted a 2 state solution

2 - How do we know what current Gazans want? They haven't had an election for 17 years, and the majority of Gazans therefore weren't eligible to vote at the time of the 2006 election

3 - And this seems like a question that you consistently refuse to answer. If Israel are the goodies, and are fighting back against those bad guys Hamas, and its the Gazans fault for electing them, how do you explain ongoing and escalating violence and land grabs in the West Bank. Hamas do not exist there?????????
 
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Go watch a superhero movie, reality is clearly too complicated for you.

This is not a simple situation of goodies and baddies, the real world rarely is.

As I said many pages ago, this is a very difficult problem. The Palestinians had their land taken from them and were kicked out and excluded. The Jews wanted a safe place to exist after hundreds of years of anti-semitism culminating in the Holocaust.

The Israelis have a case for a Jewish homeland, the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance.

The Palestinians must wonder why they have to pay for the crimes of Europeans.

The Jews must wonder why they keep getting singled out for racist treatment.

The religious justification for Israel holds no currency for me, but the fact is Israel exists and it exists on Palestinian land.

The 2 state solution is an excuse to kick the can down the road and has given Israel the time and space to keep encroaching on the occupied territories.

A 1 state solution is the only real solution, both the Israelis and Palestinians are on the same plot of land, they have to find a way to co-exist. 2 states would just lead to rivalry and possible conflict, 1 state is the only way they can co-exist. Plenty on both sides claiming the whole area for either side and attitudes must change before they can co-exist.

This is not easy, and clearly not possible in the present. But the reality in the present is that the overwhelmingly more powerful side of this dispute are the Israelis and that puts more responsibility on them. Israel has the ability to wipe out Gaza and it looks like they are going a fair way towards doing that. Their actions are clearly directly responsible for thousands of civilian deaths and they have to be made responsible for what they are doing.

DS
That's it in a nutshell. Both sides need to give. IMO extreme religious belief on both sides will always prevent this happening.
 
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That old song by Vaughan De Leath " Stay in your own backyard " .
Haaarrrgh FMD Tigaman. That comment's gotta be the laugh of the century.
Just in case you hadn't noticed, exploration, colonization, integration, population growth etc over the last couple of thousand years now means that everyone is living in someone else's back yard and have been doing so for quite some time.
Some do the sharing, growing and evolving together almost reasonably well. While some like the semitic nations / tribes want nothing more than an excuse to kaboom the *smile* out of one another regardless of any future possibilities or potential.
 
That's it in a nutshell. Both sides need to give. IMO extreme religious belief on both sides will always prevent this happening.

Worth going back to that interview by the ex-French PM, he pointed out that it has morphed into a religious battle. This benefits the Israelis because they are more powerful and have more ability to dictate terms.

As I said many pages ago, the Israelis did not learn the lesson of South Africa. Negotiate with the more moderate leaders or you will end up dealing with the radicals. This is a situation of their own making.

DS
 
Worth going back to that interview by the ex-French PM, he pointed out that it has morphed into a religious battle. This benefits the Israelis because they are more powerful and have more ability to dictate terms.

As I said many pages ago, the Israelis did not learn the lesson of South Africa. Negotiate with the more moderate leaders or you will end up dealing with the radicals. This is a situation of their own making.

DS
Palestine does not have moderate leaders as all leaders are Hamas backed . If you do not back Hamas migrate.
 
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