Australia Day - 26th January?

[Sintiger]

Dodge, duck, weave.

Whenever I concede ground on any issue (prefer to keep Jan 26, but willing to consider a change if it will bring peace) you *smile* perceive it as a weakness and attempt to twist the knife, yet you NEVER give a *smile* inch yourselves. I detest the left, as do many others. A measure of that revulsion is that many will fight you on this just to spite you. People have had enough of pushy minorities and identity politics.

I have been totally consistent. My position on Australia Day is that we should change the day out of respect for the indigenous people of this country. I have indicated that whilst I don’t particularly personally care about or need days to commemorate things I am happy that we have an Australia Day and that a January 1 federation day would be best. No idea where you get the view I have changed on that, I haven’t.

I don’t take your comment to be a weakness (that’s your words again not mine) my point was a completely different one. You were accusing me of something ( even though it was wrong) when my position wasn’t fundamentally different to yours i.e.I have never said abolish Australia Day I have said move it, but I am anti Australian by wanting to trash an institution, yet you said you were ok move it as well.

The difference between the “right” and people like me is that I believe that all humans are equal, that we are humans before we are Citizens of a country and that other cultures apart from our own are to be embraced not feared. The right live their lives in fear, they want to built barriers instead of knocking them down.
One of your comments is typical of this view, of the cynicism and fear that having these views brings. So many people who are fighting a change of date actually don’t care about changing the date, they are just doing it out of spite. What a detestable way to live your life.

And btw, the indigenous people of Australia are not a pushy minority. They are in fact the original inhabitants of this country with a history and story we need to hear and respect. Not because it is trendy and leftie, but simply because it is the right thing to do.

The rise of right wing politics is undoubtedly the biggest danger in the world today because it is based on fear of change and difference. When people are scared they defend.

 

[glantone]

Succession is the answer Glantone; a lot of people don’t want to be governed by Canberra. Self determination is surely valued higher than forced union?

Giardia, getting people to agree on a treaty would be hard enough nether lone secession.

 

[glantone]

The difference between the “right” and people like me is that I believe that all humans are equal, that we are humans before we are Citizens of a country and that other cultures apart from our own are to be embraced not feared. The right live their lives in fear, they want to built barriers instead of knocking them down.

Just by the by if I may drop in for a moment, this is one of the big contradictions of our time. It sounds great and is well intentioned and all people are indeed equal but all ideas (cultures) are not equal. Humans are sentient beings. Cultures are mere broths of ideas. And some ideas stink and some are to be feared. Right/left political persuasion should be irrelevant on this. All people are equal but all ideas (cultures) are not.

 

[glantone]

The rise of right wing politics is undoubtedly the biggest danger in the world today because it is based on fear of change and difference. When people are scared they defend.

The combination of the rise of extreme right wing politics and our disconnect from a lived reality based on facts worries me too. But extreme right wing politics includes all those ultra conservative movements around the world including those in the Islamic world.
And China's no picnic....

 

[Brodders17]

A measure of that revulsion is that many will fight you on this just to spite you. People have had enough of pushy minorities and identity politics.

i reckon this is true. many probably dont actually care what day Australia Day is on, many probably wouldnt have known it celebrates the day the first convicts landed. but now people dont want the other side, Indigenous Australians and the supposed left, to "win".
pretty poor if you ask me, but at least you are being honest.

 

[AngryAnt]

Giardia, getting people to agree on a treaty would be hard enough nether lone secession.

So you've got let's say 10% of the population who wants to secede... where do they secede to?

 

[Brodders17]

So you've got let's say 10% of the population who wants to secede... where do they secede to?

This is a thread about Australia Day. Secession sound be discussed in a thread about secession.

 

[glantone]

So you've got let's say 10% of the population who wants to secede... where do they secede to?

Dunno, ask Giardia. Was looking at the website below and thought choosing an alternate day to the 26th might come easier once we have a treaty.... maybe treaty day could be the day.

https://www.creativespirits.info/ab...d-a-treaty-help-aboriginal-self-determination

 

[Sintiger]

The combination of the rise of extreme right wing politics and our disconnect from a lived reality based on facts worries me too. But extreme right wing politics includes all those ultra conservative movements around the world including those in the Islamic world.
And China's no picnic....

Of course. My opinion on what is the biggest threat does not mean I think it is the only one and both those you mention are clearly a threat

 

[Sintiger]

Just by the by if I may drop in for a moment, this is one of the big contradictions of our time. It sounds great and is well intentioned and all people are indeed equal but all ideas (cultures) are not equal. Humans are sentient beings. Cultures are mere broths of ideas. And some ideas stink and some are to be feared. Right/left political persuasion should be irrelevant on this. All people are equal but all ideas (cultures) are not.

Yes and there will be different opinions about which one is superior to another.

What I mean by human equality is that an Australian life is worth no more or no less than a Cambodian one or a Sudanese one or anywhere else

 

[glantone]

Yes and there will be different opinions about which one is superior to another.

well, a good starting point is to see how a culture treats it women, its gays, its disabled and those who question authority. But this belongs on another thread.

 

[Giardiasis]

Just by the by if I may drop in for a moment, this is one of the big contradictions of our time. It sounds great and is well intentioned and all people are indeed equal but all ideas (cultures) are not equal. Humans are sentient beings. Cultures are mere broths of ideas. And some ideas stink and some are to be feared. Right/left political persuasion should be irrelevant on this. All people are equal but all ideas (cultures) are not.

True except all people aren’t equal, they differ in talents quite a lot. They should all however, be equal before the law.

 

[Carter]

Lol of course the date should be moved.

Only reason it isn’t is that provides a good old opportunity for non-inclusive dog-whistling by the federal government (Margaret Court) and our right wing media.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

at least you are being honest.

I didn't say I included myself. I generally pull back from that level of reasoning.

 

[Giardiasis]

So you've got let's say 10% of the population who wants to secede... where do they secede to?

To whatever they want. It could be at the state level, region level, city level, all the way to the individual (the last one would be pretty silly, doubtful anyone would want to go that far).

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

I have been totally consistent. My position on Australia Day is that we should change the day out of respect for the indigenous people of this country. I have indicated that whilst I don’t particularly personally care about or need days to commemorate things I am happy that we have an Australia Day and that a January 1 federation day would be best. No idea where you get the view I have changed on that, I haven’t.

I don’t take your comment to be a weakness (that’s your words again not mine) my point was a completely different one. You were accusing me of something ( even though it was wrong) when my position wasn’t fundamentally different to yours i.e.I have never said abolish Australia Day I have said move it, but I am anti Australian by wanting to trash an institution, yet you said you were ok move it as well.

The difference between the “right” and people like me is that I believe that all humans are equal, that we are humans before we are Citizens of a country and that other cultures apart from our own are to be embraced not feared. The right live their lives in fear, they want to built barriers instead of knocking them down.
One of your comments is typical of this view, of the cynicism and fear that having these views brings. So many people who are fighting a change of date actually don’t care about changing the date, they are just doing it out of spite. What a detestable way to live your life.

And btw, the indigenous people of Australia are not a pushy minority. They are in fact the original inhabitants of this country with a history and story we need to hear and respect. Not because it is trendy and leftie, but simply because it is the right thing to do.

The rise of right wing politics is undoubtedly the biggest danger in the world today because it is based on fear of change and difference. When people are scared they defend.

Still very ambiguous about your stance. Your first paragraph re-states it - you are definitely and non-negotiably anti-January 26, but don't care about a replacement date to commemorate it. Which is what I put to you earlier and you denied.

Since we're dealing in generalisations - the right wish to preserve foundations that have stood civilisation in good stead, and the left want to tear them down. There are people on the left who want to destroy, "just because". They're as filled with hate as the extreme right.

Let's hear a considered proposal for change that actually improves things for the majority in this country.

 

[tigerdell]

Or instead of talking about the majority we can talk about all Australians. Some are aggrieved by the date. Most enjoy the day off for a bbq. Changing the date reduces the negative impact for a small minority at very very minimal cost for the majority.

It will not tear down the Australian civilisation and end this nation as we know it. Nor will it stop protests and right historical wrongs. It will simply send a signal to a small percentage that they matter.

Its like giving your Aunt Mabel a box of chocolate covered almonds at Christmas. Its not the best present ever.
But she is family and it helps her feel included

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

It will not tear down the Australian civilisation and end this nation as we know it. Nor will it stop protests and right historical wrongs. It will simply send a signal to a small percentage that they matter.

It needs to create something to be worthwhile. Special interest groups can't keep taking away.

So once again, put some effort into it and create something better.

Indigenous elder wants woke city mobs to “come and see what it is really like”​

 

[Sintiger]

Still very ambiguous about your stance. Your first paragraph re-states it - you are definitely and non-negotiably anti-January 26, but don't care about a replacement date to commemorate it. Which is what I put to you earlier and you denied.

Since we're dealing in generalisations - the right wish to preserve foundations that have stood civilisation in good stead, and the left want to tear them down. There are people on the left who want to destroy, "just because". They're as filled with hate as the extreme right.

Let's hear a considered proposal for change that actually improves things for the majority in this country.

Nothing ambiguous about my stance at all. If you can’t understand it there is not a lot I can do about it. I don’t particularly need any memorial days for most things but that doesn’t mean I want I tear them all down. Is that so hard to understand?

Fear of change. Fear of cultural difference. Just generally fear is what categorises so much of conservative political and social views today.

The desire to preserve foundations that have stood them in good stead was probably what the aboriginal people wanted in 1788.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Nothing ambiguous about my stance at all. If you can’t understand it there is not a lot I can do about it. I don’t particularly need any memorial days for most things but that doesn’t mean I want I tear them all down. Is that so hard to understand?

You're fine with observing Anzac Day and acknowledge that today's Australia would not be possible without that sacrifice, but you're not OK with Australia Day and recognising that today's Australia would not be possible without the struggle from wilderness. It's very hard to understand.

Fear of change. Fear of cultural difference. Just generally fear is what categorises so much of conservative political and social views today.

It's not wrong to be concerned at the level of anti-Australian sentiment being fostered and openly manifesting itself in this country.

You'll know fear when your Chinese mates move on Taiwan and Uncle Joe sits on his hands.

The desire to preserve foundations that have stood them in good stead was probably what the aboriginal people wanted in 1788.

Disparate nomadic warring primitive tribes. They didn't have foundations.