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Australian Economics

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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1,766
Sorry mate, this just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Private super funds yes, they charge too much and they perform below par. But the industry funds, the biggest ones by far and the ones that anyone with a brain is in, are not for profit and have delivered good returns for decades. My industry fund is extremely good. Been with them 20 years and constantly impressed and surprised at how well they do. Their fees are low, and their performance is high.

The Coalition hates them because their mates in the banking industry don't get a cut, or at least the extortionate cut that they feel entitled to, and they empower workers.
My understanding is that Keating actually envisaged something closer to Singapore's Central Provident Fund as the ideal superannuation system. But we are not a virtual one party, benevolent dictatorship like Singapore has historically been. Hence in order to get such monumental changes through in our democratic system, he had to convince a lot of sceptical, disparate stakeholders. Therefore the compromise we ended up with was the Unions and the banking/insurance/financial services industry being the two disparate interests running the system.

Personally, I have taken a middle way. Didn't have much faith in the financial services run funds, for the reasons you outline. But at the same time, steered largely clear of the explicitly union backed industry funds. Hence I went to Queensland's public sector fund, when it opened to all-comers (even though I'm not from QLD). It was never set up as a Union backed fund, but with the same benefits of an industry fund of non-profit, mutually owned, and consistently good performance. For similar reasons, I'll be interested in how the newly established Vanguard superannuation products will perform - Vanguard obviously being a large player in the mutual funds management sector.

I've always had a strong preference for mutual banking/financial institutions and insurance (for example, health insurance) where possible too. Tend to take my business there. I think my life outlook was heavily influenced by my maternal grandfather who I was very close to. He was a self employed builder. Didn't have a particularly good relationship with the Union movement. But at the same time, having grown up dirt poor himself (fair to say, probably below working class) had no affection whatsoever for the big end of town and it's unadulterated greed. He introduced me to the mutual banking sector (old school building societies and such) when I was first starting out in the adult world.
 
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tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
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Personally, I have taken a middle way. Didn't have much faith in the financial services run funds, for the reasons you outline. But at the same time, steered largely clear of the explicitly union backed industry funds. Hence I went to Queensland's public sector fund, when it opened to all-comers (even though I'm not from QLD). It was never set up as a Union backed fund, but with the same benefits of an industry fund of non-profit, mutually owned, and consistently good performance. For similar reasons, I'll be interested in how the newly established Vanguard superannuation products will perform - Vanguard obviously being a large player in the mutual funds management sector.
Well PT, your suspicions of the industry funds have officially and objectively turned out to be unfounded. Dominated the top 10 for the last 20 years.

We agree on the private sector funds. They are a disgrace. It's got me stuffed how they get or keep members. Huge fees and average to poor performance, and constantly launching political attacks on the NFPs, for obvious reasons.

Besides, qsuper is a union backed industry fund isn't it? Check the board. The old sunsuper, which it merged with was. I used to be in it. It was solid, good actually, but not in the top bracket.
 
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Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
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Well PT, your suspicions of the industry funds have officially and objectively turned out to be unfounded. Dominated the top 10 for the last 20 years.

We agree on the private sector funds. They are a disgrace. It's got me stuffed how they get or keep members. Huge fees and average to poor performance, and constantly launching political attacks on the NFPs, for obvious reasons.

Besides, qsuper is a union backed industry fund isn't it? Check the board. The old sunsuper, which it merged with was. I used to be in it. It was solid, good actually, but not in the top bracket.
QSuper was not officially a union backed fund. It was simply the retirement savings vehicle of Queensland government employees. Founded in it's original form in 1913 - well before what we have come to know as industry funds. You are correct that the recent merger partner, Sunsuper was a collaboration between several unions in the late 1980s. That said, they always seemed to sit a bit outside the tent. Never getting involved in the official Industry Superfunds collective body. The merger is still in a bit of a strange way, with not a lot of integration.

Ex Sunsuper funds have simply been rebadged under the new name - Australian Retirement Trust and stayed in their original format. QSuper funds have stayed at arms length as QSuper in their original form. Not sure what it will mean going forward. For the time being, I'm happy to stay there. In the meantime I'll keep half an eye to see how the new Vanguard product offerings perform.
 
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tigersnake

Tear 'em apart
Sep 10, 2003
23,745
12,242
QSuper was not officially a union backed fund. It was simply the retirement savings vehicle of Queensland government employees. Founded in it's original form in 1913 - well before what we have come to know as industry funds. You are correct that the recent merger partner, Sunsuper was a collaboration between several unions in the late 1980s. That said, they always seemed to sit a bit outside the tent. Never getting involved in the official Industry Superfunds collective body. The merger is still in a bit of a strange way, with not a lot of integration.

Ex Sunsuper funds have simply been rebadged under the new name - Australian Retirement Trust and stayed in their original format. QSuper funds have stayed at arms length as QSuper in their original form. Not sure what it will mean going forward. In the meantime I'll keep half an eye to see how the new Vanguard product offerings perform.
6 out of 13 q super board members are union heavies. When it comes to super all the data says union backing delivers far far superior returns. You obviously know your way around PT, and I'm glad you've chosen well, but if it looks like a duck....
 

Tigertool

Tiger Legend
Mar 10, 2008
6,183
951
Well PT, your suspicions of the industry funds have officially and objectively turned out to be unfounded. Dominated the top 10 for the last 20 years.

We agree on the private sector funds. They are a disgrace. It's got me stuffed how they get or keep members. Huge fees and average to poor performance, and constantly launching political attacks on the NFPs, for obvious reasons.

Besides, qsuper is a union backed industry fund isn't it? Check the board. The old sunsuper, which it merged with was. I used to be in it. It was solid, good actually, but not in the top bracket.
Private funds all in one funds (such as a balanced/growth/high growth/conservative investment option) are generally poor compared to industry funds, yes, no one should be in those.

However there is a point of difference otherwise they wouldn't exist.

Private funds offer a much wider variety of more specific tailored investment options. Picking individual investment options opposed to all in one funds will likely give you competitive or better returns than an industry fund, and cheaper fees depending on your fund and the options you select. At least in the fund I switched to in Colonial First State is a pretty good chance.

Issue for private funds is that's not easily understandable for average super investors, and unless you're investing insanely aggressively, the outperformance/fees on offer aren't going to get people motivated enough to go out of their way to understand and move over.
 

Panthera Tigris

Tiger Champion
Apr 27, 2010
3,745
1,766
6 out of 13 q super board members are union heavies. When it comes to super all the data says union backing delivers far far superior returns. You obviously know your way around PT, and I'm glad you've chosen well, but if it looks like a duck....
It's interesting, I've always thought of myself aligning more with distributist economic ideology, which has a lot of it's roots in continental European Christian-democratic tradition. As opposed to the more socialistic themes running through social democracy. I don't think the aims are entirely different, in fact they arrive a lot of the time in the same kind of spot. Just slight variations of a theme at going about it. Hence there are a lot of areas in economics that conservative Christian-democratic distributists and social-democrats can find common ground. Mutual NFP ownership over retirement savings vehicles (or other institutions such as banking and insurance) is obviously one of these areas.
 
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TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
25,831
11,816
Only 2 mill. That's a disgrace. Elder abuse. I wouldn't even bother collecting it.
Might yet not get to collect it snakey one. With the amount of fiddling n nibbling all sides of govt like to do on peoples super money. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that within ten years or so your super nest egg becomes nothing more than a monthly dribble until such time as you die, then instead of your left over forced savings going to your rello's for free. It'll either get the suitcase death dutied out of it or worse get lumped back into govt consolidated revenue because you're to dead to spend your money.
 

TigerForce

Tiger Legend
Apr 26, 2004
71,295
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57
Isn't it great to see mortgage rates increase while I get less than ½ per cent in savings interest today from a Big 4 a-hole.
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
18,564
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Camberwell
What got me the other day was when Joyce was asked if the massive profit meant they would stop gouging punters at holidays etc...

His reply was essentially, no way, hotels and ubers etc all do that as well. Effectively a travel cartel designed to fleece the punters.

Why do we have an ACCC if not to stop that sort of stuff?
Wasn’t just Qantas although they were leading the pack. The airfares to the US and Europe in the period when international travel was just opening up were close to extortion, close to double the price pre COVID. They were (and are) all doing it but based on what I have seen QANTAS was the worst.
There is a segway to the AFL here. The chair of QANTAS Richard Goyder is also the chair of the AFL Commission. He has been quoted as saying that Alan Joyce is the best CEO in Australia by a long way. If you believe his only loyalty is to the shareholders then maybe that is partly true ( for now) but imo he has devalued what was Australia’s most iconic brand in a way that will take a long time to recover.
 
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TigerMasochist

Walks softly carries a big stick.
Jul 13, 2003
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Isn't it great to see mortgage rates increase while I get less than ½ per cent in savings interest today from a Big 4 a-hole.
Always been that way, dunno why anyone would ever expect it to change any time soon.
 

Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
18,564
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Camberwell
Always been that way, dunno why anyone would ever expect it to change any time soon.
No it hasn’t.

The difference between mortgage lending rates and deposit rates are the highest in history.

Pure profiteering and I am glad to hear teh ACCC is going to look into it
 
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TigerForce

Tiger Legend
Apr 26, 2004
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No it hasn’t.

The difference between mortgage lending rates and deposit rates are the highest in history.

Pure profiteering and I am glad to hear teh ACCC is going to look into it
Yep, and geez....how many times have we heard that.
 
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eZyT

Tiger Legend
Jun 28, 2019
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Pure profiteering and I am glad to hear teh ACCC is going to look into it

Can anyone recall the last time a royal commision, a senate enquiry, an ICAC or ACCC

Found corruption or extreme incompetence

And referred it to criminal court, or even said

'dont come to work on Monday'

It seems they drag useless and/or corrupt ceo's, director generals and politician in,

They go 'not to my recollection', or 'i acknowledge we could have done better'

And there is never any consequence?

Occasionally a corporation that makes $1b every six months gets a $50k fine.

It seems like a big, cynical, waste of time.

Nothings gonna change until some of these *smile* are sent to share a cell with a street-psycho (as opposed to a board room, or cabinet psycho) for 5 years
 
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RoarEmotion

Tiger Legend
Aug 20, 2005
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Can anyone recall the last time a royal commision, a senate enquiry, an ICAC or ACCC

Found corruption or extreme incompetence

And referred it to criminal court, or even said

'dont come to work on Monday'

It seems they drag useless and/or corrupt ceo's, director generals and politician in,

They go 'not to my recollection', or 'i acknowledge we could have done better'

And there is never any consequence?

Occasionally a corporation that makes $1b every six months gets a $50k fine.

It seems like a big, cynical, waste of time.

Nothings gonna change until some of these *smile* are sent to share a cell with a street-psycho (as opposed to a board room, or cabinet psycho) for 5 years
Piqued my curiosity. Outcomes of the banking commission here. They got some individuals with small jail terms but the big companies just get slapped with a $50m fine.


ACCC definitely has powers to get individuals as well as companies for anti competitive stuff plus in some cases your company can’t pay for you as an individual which gives the law much more sting - I know I watched the video a few times of someone who went to jail - not sure how it works with royal commissions but they should copy the ACCC to change behaviour.

Edit : I was wrong I must have watched a us bribing government official for non us citizen working for us company going to us jail while working outside of us.

Accc just had first criminal charge one. https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/first-individuals-are-sentenced-for-criminal-cartel-conduct
 
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Sintiger

Tiger Legend
Aug 11, 2010
18,564
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Can anyone recall the last time a royal commision, a senate enquiry, an ICAC or ACCC

Found corruption or extreme incompetence

And referred it to criminal court, or even said

'dont come to work on Monday'

It seems they drag useless and/or corrupt ceo's, director generals and politician in,

They go 'not to my recollection', or 'i acknowledge we could have done better'

And there is never any consequence?

Occasionally a corporation that makes $1b every six months gets a $50k fine.

It seems like a big, cynical, waste of time.

Nothings gonna change until some of these *smile* are sent to share a cell with a street-psycho (as opposed to a board room, or cabinet psycho) for 5 years
The banking Royal commission resulted in enormous amounts of fees being repaid by banks and superannuation funds.
The ACCC has done investigations that have led to changes in market behaviour but they are very underfunded and also are not a body that can prosecute, only recommend.
In this case what we have is straight out price gouging by the banks and i would be reasonably confident that if they find that something will happen. I am not sure what is criminal about it however. Immoral yes.
However I don’t dispute the point that we generally have “wet lettuce leaf” type penalties for many things that are found.
 
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tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
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Can anyone recall the last time a royal commision, a senate enquiry, an ICAC or ACCC

Found corruption or extreme incompetence

And referred it to criminal court, or even said

'dont come to work on Monday'

It seems they drag useless and/or corrupt ceo's, director generals and politician in,

They go 'not to my recollection', or 'i acknowledge we could have done better'

And there is never any consequence?

Occasionally a corporation that makes $1b every six months gets a $50k fine.

It seems like a big, cynical, waste of time.

Nothings gonna change until some of these *smile* are sent to share a cell with a street-psycho (as opposed to a board room, or cabinet psycho) for 5 years
Morrison's Pentecostal mate Stuart Robert should face criminal charges, or at least be forced to resign from politics, we know he wont.
After being told that Robodebt was unlawful, his response was to double down. If his response wasn't unlawful what is.
 
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Ralphie

Tiger Rookie
Dec 6, 2015
294
565
Morrison's Pentecostal mate Stuart Robert should face criminal charges, or at least be forced to resign from politics, we know he wont.
After being told that Robodebt was unlawful, his response was to double down. If his response wasn't unlawful what is.
The bloke has the reverse midas touch...............:poop:
 

Baloo

Delisted Free Agent
Nov 8, 2005
44,172
19,044
He's on the stand today. Having a drink every time he says he doesn't recall would have most people plastered after 1 hour.
 

tigerman

It's Tiger Time
Mar 17, 2003
24,345
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