Brexited | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Brexited

Panthera Tigris said:
Not quite as simple as it may seem. Just because NI has had a relative peace for over 20 years, does not mean that there aren't elements within the current generation of youngsters, who would be prepared to revisit the politics of their parents and grandparents. Particularly in the working class areas where unemployment and disadvantage is rife (for both Protestant and Catholic working class alike) and tensions simmer just under the surface.

And if backed into a corner, the Loyalist/Unionist paramilitaries, although smaller in number than their IRA (and splinter group) adversaries, had particularly blood thirsty, psychopathic, murderous element - perhaps even more so than their Republican adversaries (with the only exception being the absolute extreme IRA splinter groups).

Previously confidential documents have been released over the years that are based on intelligence British undercover agents gathered right up to the early 90s. Loyalist Paramilitaries were willing to go down the Serb type of route if the 6 Counties were ever given back.

We think of western Europe as being more civilised in comparison to the former Yugoslavia, and that this sort of thing doesn't happen in civilised countries. Well just remember, that Yugoslavia was thought of as quite different than most of the Communist bloc. Far closer to the same type of cultural values as western Europe, than the official Soviet bloc. In short, similarly 'civilised. And look how quickly an apparently 'civilised' society descended into absolute inhuman brutality given the right (or wrong, if we like) ingredients.

This is one area where the pro-Brexit crowd had absolutely no consideration of consequences. The fact that both the UK and Rep of Ire are members of the EU was a key (if not, THE key) ingredient to reaching a compromise arrangement that both sides seem willing to live with long term.

Some examples of concessions that this has allowed are: citizens of NI can freely hold both or either Irish or British citizenship, dependent on their choosing; they move freely and seamlessly over the border without even feeling like you're in a different country (some even live on one side, work on the other), freedom of movement of goods and services; some international sports teams are actually a mixed "all-Ireland" representative format (Rugby Union, European champs in some sports); those types of things. Nearly like two countries without being two countries for want of a better description.......

Without this element a truce never would have been reached. Unravel the EU arrangement you unravel the entire central pillar of the NI peace arrangement and we can easily be back to where we were in the 1970s (or even worse, depending on other ingredients).

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/two-arrested-after-car-bomb-attack-in-londonderry-northern-ireland-20190120-p50siz.html

Two blokes in their 20s, two in their 30s arrested. Like I say, there is certainly an element within NI's current younger generation who are willing to engage in the militancy of their parent's generation. It's not as insignificant an element as the NI politicians in this article seem to infer.

This particular bombing being from the pro-republican side. In another article I read late last year, they were discussing new build mixed (mixed, as in, mixed Protestant and Catholic) affordable housing estates being built for young families starting out, in areas that had been traditionally Protestant-loyalist. And that Catholic families had been moved by authorities for their own safety, as there had been death threats from fellow (presumably Protestant-Loyalist) residents of the estate. Additionally, flags and propaganda of Loyalist paramilitary groups had began to openly hang from lamp posts and buildings in these brand new estates. Remember, the demogrpahic in these estates is primarily young (mostly born in the past 20 to 30 years) working class who have no recollection of "The Troubles".
 
DavidSSS said:
But Gia, according to your quote the true possessors of the land are the tillers, the peasants. Doesn't that make absentee landlords (a common feature of capitalism) the illegitimate owners with the state providing the channel for predation (as it protects their "private property" rights)? By the way, I really don't give a crap what label you wish to tar me with, it just shows your lack of imagination.
According to my quote, “the illegitimate owner, the man whose original and continuing claim to the land and its fruits has come from coercion and violence.” You see David, there is a wee bit of difference between conquering a land and forcing the peasants to pay your lackey a tribute or cop an axe to the neck to someone that freely (that means absent the threat of violence) exchanges money with someone for machinery and a factory and then freely (again I’ll repeat this for slow people, that means absent the threat of violence) exchanges wages for labour. I suggest you read up on Locke’s homesteading principle if you are still struggling with the concept.

By the way, I don’t care that you don’t give a crap. I wasn’t using socialist as a prejorative, it is just an accurate description of what you are.
 
Hilarious stories coming out of the UK now about Leavers who are shocked to discover their plans to retire to Spain are now in disarray - "I didn't realise restricting Freedom of Movement applied to us as well as to all those foreigners coming into Ingerland"
 
antman said:
Hilarious stories coming out of the UK now about Leavers who are shocked to discover their plans to retire to Spain are now in disarray - "I didn't realise restricting Freedom of Movement applied to us as well as to all those foreigners coming into Ingerland"

Why are you so angry about the uk leaving?
 
Angry? Nope. Bemusement? Yep.

I do get a strong and enjoyable feeling of schadenfreude which is probably selfish given the potential human cost of the thing.
 
Midsy said:
Why are you so angry about the uk leaving?

And you have to admit, the plight of Gammons who voted to restrict Freedom of Movement without realising it would affect their freedom of movement is pretty *smile* funny.
 
antman said:
Angry? Nope. Bemusement? Yep.

I do get a strong and enjoyable feeling of schadenfreude which is probably selfish given the potential human cost of the thing.

You come across as angry.

You have no idea why people voted to leave or remain. You have a real bullying quality to your posts in this discussion.

You talk of potential human cost yet conveniently disregard potential benefits. It’s that sort of attitude that’s creating the sticking points you talk about.
 
Midsy said:
You come across as angry.

You have no idea why people voted to leave or remain.

Except when they explain why they voted Leave or Remain. Which often they do. There's this thing called Twitter with the hashtag #Brexit where people do little else but explain why they voted Leave or Remain. Or the people who said they voted Leave because "Nissan would never leave Sunderland, look how big their plant is". Or like the people who said they voted Leave because they didn't like foreigners coming into the UK but didn't realise that it could affect their rights and conditions if they want to retire to Spain. Look up the numerous Youtube videos or radio grabs where people explain why they voted the way they did.

So yeah, I know why some people voted Leave/Remain because they tell us themselves.

You have a real bullying quality to your posts in this discussion.

You talk of potential human cost yet conveniently disregard potential benefits. It’s that sort of attitude that’s creating the sticking points you talk about.

Let's discuss the benefits of Brexit then Mids. You go first.
 
antman said:
Angry? Nope. Bemusement? Yep.

I do get a strong and enjoyable feeling of schadenfreude which is probably selfish given the potential human cost of the thing.
Makes sense, most people that denigrate private property are envious people.
 
antman said:
Except when they explain why they voted Leave or Remain. Which often they do. There's this thing called Twitter with the hashtag #Brexit where people do little else but explain why they voted Leave or Remain. Or the people who said they voted Leave because "Nissan would never leave Sunderland, look how big their plant is". Or like the people who said they voted Leave because they didn't like foreigners coming into the UK but didn't realise that it could affect their rights and conditions if they want to retire to Spain. Look up the numerous Youtube videos or radio grabs where people explain why they voted the way they did.

So yeah, I know why some people voted Leave/Remain because they tell us themselves.

Let's discuss the benefits of Brexit then Mids. You go first.
.

So people’s reason to leave are less valid? In your opinion, of course.

And Nissan aren’t leaving Sunderland. Several models will still be made there, even if the X-Trail might not.

I explained earlier why I voted to leave. My family’s company has been directly and negatively affected by EU directives, even though we have no dealings in the EU whatsoever. So being out of the EU means we won’t be subject to anymore of these nonsense laws imposed on us by EU bureaucrats. Or is that a *smile* reason as well...?
 
Midsy said:
.

So people’s reason to leave are less valid? In your opinion, of course.

And Nissan aren’t leaving Sunderland. Several models will still be made there, even if the X-Trail might not.

I explained earlier why I voted to leave. My family’s company has been directly and negatively affected by EU directives, even though we have no dealings in the EU whatsoever. So being out of the EU means we won’t be subject to anymore of these nonsense laws imposed on us by EU bureaucrats. Or is that a *smile* reason as well...?

Some reasons are completely valid, and some are completely misguided - like the ones I quoted. Leaving because you don't like Freedom Of Movement for non-UK citizens and expecting the EU to continue to respect the free movement of UK citizens for example. Tell me if you think this is a "valid" reason for voting Leave or not.

You are right on Nissan - some models will still continue to be made there. I stand corrected, and facts are always more useful than opinions.

I never responded to you or your reasons to leave but thanks for repeating them anyway. I heard a good description of membership of the EU - you cede some sovereignty in order to gain some.

Fintan O'Toole has a good discussion of all of this here [youtube=560,315]JvDAW5SjdaE[/youtube] -

Also explains why the poorer and Northern regions of England (and Wales) voted Leave while the cities didn't. Furthermore, people have very valid reasons for being p!ssed off with the economy, with austerity, with the political system. But their mistake is thinking that Leave/Brexit actually solves these issues or even begins to deal with them. I would argue it doesn't. Just my opinion of course.

So yeah, some people have "valid" reasons to vote Leave. Many did not, and are now blaming the EU for withdrawing the rights they had as members of the EU. That's not valid. That's stupidity.

Anyway, here's the other side of things. Small business person, benefits immensely from frictionless trade with the EU. She can order goods from Germany - they arrive. No paperwork, no tariffs, just order, it arrives in a few days. That's all going to change on March 29th.

Sally Stephenson

‏ @Sally_CF71

Why Single Market & Customs Union is so important to small businesses:
Just had pallet of stock delivered direct from Germany.
No paperwork & no customs processes/costs - I simply ordered it last week & here it is today.

#Brexit ends that & my business will suffer
@AlunCairns

https://twitter.com/Sally_CF71/status/1092419470956658690
 
Here's another good one for you midsly. This woman is a vociferous Leave campaigner and she's upset that she will have to pay Telco roaming charges in Europe after the UK leaves the EU.

Very disappointed my mobile provider ⁦@VodafoneUK⁩ refusing to rule out roaming charges after Brexit, saying it hopes ‘arrangements will be made’ to keep it free. If ⁦@ThreeUK⁩ doesn’t need any ‘arrangements,’ why do you, Vodafone? https://t.co/XLTHemzqZh
https://twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/1093061819541979136?s=19

Some of the replues are hilarious.
 
It won’t happen. I’m a Vodafone UK customer as well. I’m extremely confident ALL telco companies will keep the same tariffs as they currently have them.

People said we’d need to go back to having visas to travel there. Guess what? Ain’t gonna happen.

A lot of ‘Y2K’ going on.
 
Yeah. Three UK is based in Ireland and already had a no roaming policy even outside the EU - so it's possible competitors may choose to follow that model if customers jump ship.

The broader point is that there are a whole lot of EU consumer protections which are at risk now - the EU actually regulated that as a single market, it was illegal for companies to charge roaming costs. So the benefit to the consumers of no roaming was largely driven by EU regulation. These consumer protections are all at risk, as the UK parliament has done sod all to legislate any of them, probably on the risky assumption that they can do a deal with the EU to roll-over these.

The Y2K comparison is wrong - I work in IT and I know about the millions of person hours globally that went into preparing for Y2K - rewriting code, changing and upgrading systems, comprehensive testing. This is the main reason why Y2K was a great success for the IT industry - we prepared for it properly over five or more years. We analysed the problem, developed plans and mitigations, executed them in good time. There was definitely a level of public hysteria that was overplayed before 2000 but the IT industry is pragmatic - we just got on with the job. Tick tock.

The UK has almost no roll-over Trade Agreements in place now and there are 50 days to go. The EU has sent May packing again with no further renegotiation. We still don't know if it's NO DEAL or some May-Bot abortion of a compromise with 50 days to go. Does that sound like being well-planned and prepared to you?
 
antman said:
The Y2K comparison is wrong - I work in IT and I know about the millions of person hours globally that went into preparing for Y2K - rewriting code, changing and upgrading systems, comprehensive testing. This is the main reason why Y2K was a great success for the IT industry - we prepared for it properly over five or more years. We analysed the problem, developed plans and mitigations, executed them in good time. There was definitely a level of public hysteria that was overplayed before 2000 but the IT industry is pragmatic - we just got on with the job. Tick tock.

Let's call them Chicken Littles then.
 
Giardiasis said:
According to my quote, “the illegitimate owner, the man whose original and continuing claim to the land and its fruits has come from coercion and violence.” You see David, there is a wee bit of difference between conquering a land and forcing the peasants to pay your lackey a tribute or cop an axe to the neck to someone that freely (that means absent the threat of violence) exchanges money with someone for machinery and a factory and then freely (again I’ll repeat this for slow people, that means absent the threat of violence) exchanges wages for labour. I suggest you read up on Locke’s homesteading principle if you are still struggling with the concept.

By the way, I don’t care that you don’t give a crap. I wasn’t using socialist as a prejorative, it is just an accurate description of what you are.

No struggle here, I know a lame justification when I see one. I also know there are many more options than just free market or socialist, you see I actually read widely and don't live in an ideological straight jacket.

Gia, you remind me of a Trotskyist, its all us or them, and when the free market (or for the Trots some bunch of dictators doing their thing under the umbrella of socialism) turns to crap there is always the claim that it wasn't really a free market (or socialism) and if the free market (or socialist) system was done properly it would all work fine. You have so much in common with socialists you could join them and would fit right in, just swap Marx for Mises (have I spelled that right?).

Brexit (to get somewhere near on topic) shows just how complicated the world is. The reality is that the more economic power you have the more you get to direct your own destiny. Europe has more power together than apart. The UK is already starting to learn this as the EU can afford to refuse to negotiate, but the UK is struggling to control its own destiny.

DS
 
DavidSSS said:
Europe has more power together than apart.

Tell that to the Greeks. Or the Italians. Or even the Germans (especially their manufacturers) now.