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Climate Change

Interesting article that explains a fair bit. Whether or not one is for or against fossil fuels or the alternatives, it’s still worth the read.

(And no, I’m not trying to convince anyone that nuclear power is the only way to go)

Nuclear Wasted: Why the Cost of Nuclear Energy is Misunderstood​

Exaggerated by critics, exacerbated by bad policy​

July 25, 2022 Facebook X Email
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By Joshua Antonini



“Dying of an incurable attack of market forces.” This diagnosis of the nuclear energy industry comes from environmental activist Amory Lovins. Reuters agrees that nuclear power is financially untenable, claiming that bringing reactors online is “too slow, too expensive” as the market for non-carbon-emitting energy heats up.
You might be inclined to agree with these skeptics. After all, what do the benefits of powerful, clean, safe, and efficient nuclear energy matter if the cost is prohibitively high?
As it turns out, the economic case against nuclear energy is faulty. An analysis of the metrics used reveals serious flaws with those methods, misleading conclusions about nuclear energy, and unrealistic assumptions about potential alternatives.
Lazard, a leading investment and asset management firm, uses Levelized Cost of Energy (LCOE) to estimate the average cost of various forms of energy. Lazard found that utility-scale solar and wind is around $40 per megawatt-hour, while nuclear plants average around $175. Because LCOE is often used to argue for renewables and against nuclear (Lovins and Reuters both use LCOE in the articles referenced above), it requires closer examination.
Mark Nelson, environmentalist and managing director of Radiant Energy Fund, explains that LCOE was developed as a tool to describe “the cost of energy for power plants of a given nature.” But this tool fails when it attempts to compare the different energy sources needed to provide reliable, 24/7 electricity supply.
“[T]he cost and performance of an electricity grid is dominated by the ‘extremes’ and the worst case,” Nelson says. “And what are the extremes? Extreme shortages of supply. Extreme difficulties with combining the right generators at the right time at the right user load.”
Nelson uses the following example to illustrate the inability of LCOE to take into account the inadequacy of solar and wind: Imagine you are standing in Manhattan and need to get to London in the most cost-effective way. We would find that swimming is the cheapest! By the cost per mile of swimming, it is far cheaper than building a boat, and the infrastructure needed to use a plane would be very expensive; swimming is clearly the cheapest way to get to London. Furthermore, you can have a reasoned debate with the top experts in ocean-crossing and you can all agree that you’re using the same metric. Of course, none of you have any plans on swimming there. After all, it’s not physically possible. That doesn’t stop the experts from advocating that other people be required by government mandate to swim because it’s cheap.
Another factor that cost analyses like levelized cost of energy miss is the energy density of each form of electricity and the subsequent environmental impact of the facilities themselves. A wind facility would require more than 140,000 acres — 170 times the land needed for a nuclear reactor — “to generate the same amount of electricity as a 1,000 megawatt reactor,” according to the Nuclear Energy Institute. The institute notes that while nuclear requires 103 acres per million megawatt-hours, solar needs 3,200 acres, and wind uses up 17,800 acres.
Considering the LCOE of new sources also misses the comparatively low cost of existing generation, according to a 2019 report by the Institute for Energy Research.
“The average LCOEs for existing coal ($41/megawatt-hour), CC [combined-cycle] gas ($36/MWh), nuclear ($33/MWh) and hydro ($38/MWh) resources are less than half the cost of new wind resources ($90/MWh) or new PV solar resources ($88.7/MWh) with imposed costs included,” the report states. Imposed costs include the need to keep baseload energy like coal or natural gas idling in case the wind or solar are not producing enough energy to meet demand; such costs are often ignored by advocates of wind and solar.
Thus, levelized cost of energy misrepresents the cost of solar and wind as too low, puts nuclear energy’s costs as too high, and misses key parts of the picture.
However, the cost of nuclear power itself doesn’t need to be as high as it is in the United States. Japanese nuclear power plantsonly take an average of three to four years to build, from pouring concrete foundation to grid connection. French power plants mostly took between five and eight years to build.
American plants used to be built at a similar pace, before the Nuclear Regulatory Commission began to regulate the most minute aspects of construction. Contemporary American nuclear plants commonly take over a decade to build (assuming the construction plan is not simply abandoned). The NRC has a 32-step construction licensing process, and many of those steps require approval from other regulatory agencies that impose their own multi-step approval processes.
While federal, state and local agencies are legally obligated to draw up their reports within set timeframes, they routinely take significantly longer. For example, the NRC is required by law to create an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) within two years. “However,” as author and nuclear engineer Robert Zubrinnotes, “the NRC operates as if without constraint by law and actually takes an average of four years, sometimes as long as six, to write the EIS.”
What do licensing, approval, and construction time have to do with costs? Zubrin explains:
“Experience has shown that the cost of building a nuclear power plant increases roughly in proportion to the construction time squared. This is because the longer the project goes on, the more requirements, technical changes, and legal actions are levied on it… By multiplying the time it takes to complete a nuclear power plant, the antinuclear regulatory process has inflated the cost of nuclear power by two orders of magnitude.”
The Institute for Energy Research reports that it takes the NRC “an average of 80 months to approve the most recent combined construction and operation licenses. This contrasts to regulatory approval in the United Kingdom, which can be completed in about 54 months.” Furthermore, “the NRC does not provide the early feedback that would let companies properly assess regulatory risk before investing hundreds of millions of dollars in further design and development.” Meanwhile, regulatory regimes in Canada and China are able to quickly approve new, state-of-the-art projects for molten salt reactors, attracting reactor companies and leaving the U.S. in the dust.
Given that solar and wind receive almost five times the subsidies that nuclear receives and more than 50 times the subsidies (when considered in terms of dollars of subsidy received per unit of energy produced), the competition is hardly slanted in nuclear’s favor.
The problem of cost is therefore one that is both exaggerated by critics and exacerbated by overzealous regulation. In other words, not only is the problem not as bad as it is often portrayed, but there’s far more significant room for improvement.

Permission to reprint this blog post in whole or in part is hereby granted, provided that the author (or authors) and the Mackinac Center for Public Policy are properly cited.
 
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If I'm right, Dutton and co never raised Nuclear as a viable option while they were in government. Despite all the *smile* they copped locally and internationally. It's only become a thing since they went into opposition? Sounds like they're only really doing it to create a narrative they think will work against the government. Not sure Dutton and co have come up with any real costings either.
 

Interesting article that explains a fair bit. Whether or not one is for or against fossil fuels or the alternatives, it’s still worth the read.

(And no, I’m not trying to convince anyone that nuclear power is the only way to go)

Nuclear Wasted: Why the Cost of Nuclear Energy is Misunderstood​

Exaggerated by critics, exacerbated by bad policy​

July 25, 2022 Facebook X
Email
Print

By Joshua Antonini


1709012522783.png

The Mackinac Center for Public Policy is a right-wing pressure group based in Michigan. Founded in 1987, it is the largest state-level "think tank" in the nation. It was established by right-wing activists to promote "free market," pro-business policies. The Center voices its policy positions through publications and has moved beyond Michigan by helping the leaders of similar conservative institutions to ratchet up their operations in many other states and countries around the world. It is a member of the State Policy Network (SPN), a web of state pressure groups that denote themselves as "think tanks" and drive a right-wing agenda in statehouses nationwide. The organization has drawn fire for its advocacy of right wing positions.[1]

Opposition to Environmental Protections
According to Progress Michigan, Mackinac has received generous funding from the Charles G. Koch Foundation in support of efforts to oppose environmental protection policies.[22] The foundation gave $79,151 between 2005 and 2009. During this period of time, Mackinac and Jack McHugh released reports supporting the "No-More-Stringent" law in Michigan, which prohibited the Department of Environmental Quality from adopting any regulation more stringent than the federal government. Koch industries is a known repeat offender of EPA regulations.[31]

Climate Change Denial and Opposition to Renewable Energy
Mackinac has also called research on anthropogenic global warming a "pseudoscience," citing well-known climate change deniers Patrick J. Michaels and Robert C. Balling to claim that the science behind global warming is unsubstantiated.[32] Mackinac has also advocated that Michigan lower its renewable portfolio standards (RPS) requirements to zero, citing Solyndra as an example of the unreliability of renewable energy. The Michigan RPS is 10 percent by 2015.[33] On wind power, Mackinac's senior environmental policy analyst Russ Harding has stated, "It is a given that households will pay for wind power through higher energy bills," and "Michigan legislators should repeal the renewable energy standard."[34]
 
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I probably can with a bit of google-fu.

I'm still waiting for you and Willo to provide a single piece of usable data on any aspect of this debate.

It's your turn - step up mate. If you can. Give me the cost of Australia going nuclear over any time frame you like.
No it's your turn,,.
Tell me the costs to power Australia with renewables ,if that is even possible .
Sorry Willo, this debate has run its course as far as I'm concerned.

Have a great day mate.
I was just warming up :ROFLMAO:
 
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I believe most if not all people would agree that renewables do have a major role transitioning from the dependence on fossil fuels.
But.
There needs more open discussion on the full suite of alternatives.
Too many closed minds. Not enough RWNJs :giggle:!Articles in a Murdoch media outlets that are dismissed immediately regardless of what they offer or other sources that don’t fit someone’s narrative doesn’t do anyone any favours.

It will take time to transition, zero net emissions by 2030 or some specific date probably won’t happen. So the; what happens? Another government intervention? Another tariff? another tax? It’s ok to have some sort of target, but the ever changing economics do provide a variable to government targets.
How many government targets have ever been achieved? Any?
Government determined doctrine often means the humble taxpayer foots the bill. Sometimes big business does. But the fact is, it won’t be cheaper. We were supposed to have cheap energy a few years ago. I don’t think anyone will be holding their breath on this.

How many people can afford to change over to an ev? Some? A majority? What happens to those that can least afford it? Do they get hit with another tax/levy/tariff?
Some who have an ev to plug in at home to draw power from (if charged at work and a short distance form home and don’t need to use it at nighttime).
What about those that can’t afford an ev, or a battery storage system?
There are so many questions. More that will keep arising.

Personally, I believe it needs a combination of energy supplies. Different locations, geography, demand, population density, industry types and needs etc will demand more than one source of energy.
One size fits all……just won’t work.
 
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!Articles in a Murdoch media outlets that are dismissed immediately regardless of what they offer or other sources that don’t fit someone’s narrative doesn’t do anyone any favours.
No, they are dismissed because they deliberately mislead and push an agenda. If you can't see that, you're not looking. But just for you I dug up this example, from the Australian, that they published. Can you see how it's deliberately trying to mislead? The fact a national media org can't publish *smile* like this under the guise of "news" is everything that's wrong with Australian media.

1709020290706.png
 
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The simple solution is do things gradually ,until you have a constant supply of power,you are not going to get that from current renewables.
The current Labor government ,are pushing there agenda way too hard ,and same for the Victorian Labor government .

As for nuclear costing to much ,l would love to see the total costs of all the solar /wind/hydro etc costs to set up,and that doesn't include the cost of redoing the power lines .
Then the replacement costs after a storm,which happened in WA to a solar farm,,l think last year.

I mean some people don't have a problem with a tunnel being billions over budget in victoria among other things,,so they shouldn't have a problem with a nuclear plant providing people with constant power.
Gradually? that is what is happening. Constant supply? The current strategy doesn't do that? You been blacked out? Or are do you just think that this current crazy radical leftist trajectory will result in interrupted supply at some point in the future?

Replacement cost of a damaged solar farm? Making any kind of a dint in cost compared to nuclear? It could be trashed 10 times over and you'd still have change.

Tunnel? Compared to nuclear power? This is a taking the *smile* trifecta.
 
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As Forrest said, nuclear is just another excuse to kick the can down the road. Nuclear is stupid in so many ways. I see someone above asked about the size of nuclear reactors, well, those small reactors don't exist so size means the big ones, you now, very expensive, massive cost over-runs and then you have to decommission them. How about factoring in 250,000 years of storage of the waste? We're not just talking about storage either, we're talking security because that waste can turn a normal bomb into a dirty bomb. Just so stupid.

The right wingers have been opposing change on this for decades, and where are we now? We have to transition much faster because of the right wingers blocking earlier moves to renewables. They then complain that we want to move too fast now - that's is rich coming from those who deliberately reduced the time we have to transition. Bunch of hypocrites.

I'll add the fact that many of the coal power plants being closed are being closed because they are well beyond their useful life, and even further beyond the lifespan they were designed to operate.

DS
 
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The right wingers have been opposing change on this for decades, and where are we now? We have to transition much faster because of the right wingers blocking earlier moves to renewables. They then complain that we want to move too fast now - that's is rich coming from those who deliberately reduced the time we have to transition. Bunch of hypocrites.
yes indeed.
 
As Forrest said, nuclear is just another excuse to kick the can down the road. Nuclear is stupid in so many ways. I see someone above asked about the size of nuclear reactors, well, those small reactors don't exist so size means the big ones, you now, very expensive, massive cost over-runs and then you have to decommission them. How about factoring in 250,000 years of storage of the waste? We're not just talking about storage either, we're talking security because that waste can turn a normal bomb into a dirty bomb. Just so stupid.

The right wingers have been opposing change on this for decades, and where are we now? We have to transition much faster because of the right wingers blocking earlier moves to renewables. They then complain that we want to move too fast now - that's is rich coming from those who deliberately reduced the time we have to transition. Bunch of hypocrites.

I'll add the fact that many of the coal power plants being closed are being closed because they are well beyond their useful life, and even further beyond the lifespan they were designed to operate.

DS
the typical argument goes something like climate change isnt real, but if it is it isnt influenced by humans, but if it is there is nothing we can do to change it, but if there is it is too hard/expensive, but if we are going to do anything it should include nuclear (nuclear must be simple and cheap?).
 
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No, they are dismissed because they deliberately mislead and push an agenda. If you can't see that, you're not looking. But just for you I dug up this example, from the Australian, that they published. Can you see how it's deliberately trying to mislead? The fact a national media org can't publish *smile* like this under the guise of "news" is everything that's wrong with Australian media.
So you believe that every single article or topic in any Murdoch media is *smile*?
Every single one?
That confirms exactly what I posted.
 
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Thanks. This made me take a look at my own rooftop solar system to work out what the average cost per mwh is.

So in terms of government spending. The cost essentially is predominantly devolved to the individual and the cost is also primarily deferred (through FIT's) so the cost in net terms in terms of upfront costs are low and time value of money would significantly reduce the impacts of the FIT's.

So I didn't receive a subsidy for mine (I got screwed by a technicality) but the max subsidy in Victoria is currently $1,400 and FIT's are 4.9c / kwh (the standard rate that the government pay).

I installed a 5kw systems onto my house and I track my production through an app that picks data from my inverter and my average production is around 19 kwh / day (its obviously much higher in Summer vs Winter). Of that 19kwh produced, an average of 13 kwh is fed back into the grid as I'm a relatively low energy user. I therefore use about 6kwh directly in my house, and then I redraw about 6kwh on average through the year back from the grid for average consumption in my house of around 12 kwhs / day.

The FIT would provide me with 4.9c / Kwh for everything fed back in (13 kwh per day), which if we provide a base life of the system at 25 years, then I'd receive 118,625 kwh's across the lifetime or $5,813 in FIT's. Whilst I didn't get the subsidy, to identify a cost per mwh over the life of the system you add both together so cost to the government to compare, the cost if $7,213 divided by the total power generated (19 kwh / day for 25 years), so 173,375 or around 4.2c / kwh or to compare as a mwh $41.60 which is significantly cheaper than any other component.

There are 2 things I haven't included (1 positive and 1 negative).
1 - GST on the re-sale of fed in electricity. As retailers are allowed to re-sell the energy that is fed back into the grid, the government receives GST on that, 10% on an average of 30c (most of this would be pulled back on-peak) thats essentially GST of 3c / kwh that broadly offsets the cost of the FIT by around 60%. The net cost of this once you factor in the time value of money would be neglible of providing FIT's for the next 25 years
2 - The cost of changing the grid structure / transmission line upgrades. I have no idea what this would cost, but once you factor in an $41.60 cost / mwh cost, and offset that by the GST earnt on energy fed back into the grid and re-sold, then the cost would drop closer to $21 / mwh.

Even accounting for the biggest variant based on 2030 pricing on this link, the difference in cost from 2030 pricing for renewables (which is the cheapest) is $69, the difference being $48 / mwh. I'd be astounded if the cost to rewire the grid would come anywhere near that.

Its why I'm so bullish that we in Australia are blessed with the use of rooftop solar. It doesn't impact land use which is a major issue when we remove food production to build large scale solar plants for example as the panels go on existing providers. Its my view that the bulk of our investment in renewables in this country should be on solar, battery to store that power, and potentially baseload power via hydro, tidal and gas.

I think the idea of getting to net zero is a bit of a fallacy IMO and is largely unachievable in our lifetime, unless we "sell" our emissions to poor countries (which is what the richer nations will do), but this does nothing overall, its just passing the buck.
 
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So you believe that every single article or topic in any Murdoch media is *smile*?
Every single one?
That confirms exactly what I posted.

That was just one of the examples I could have pulled. There's plenty across all their mastheads that I could have used. It shows that New Limited push an agenda and shape news stories to suit their agenda. If you read the pieces in depth and pull out facts, and analyse them yourself, you can probably get a more realistic account. But News Limited are banking on people reading their pieces and believing verbatim their spin on the facts and what they mean. For those that dont read more than the headlines and the first paragraph, they manipulate those so that their agenda is pushed.

This isn't any revelation. It's a well known fact across the media and while they may deny it, they dont hide from it.

But hey, if News Limited is your preferred source of information to build your opinions, that's cool. There are plenty in Australia that do. But don't take offence if others laugh off facts, figures, or opinions that come from News Limited. Personally I've read enough of their pieces to know that they'll always push their agenda when they can.
 
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Warrnambool's gone from 36deg to 23deg and now back to 32deg.........WTF is this temperature doing???
 
That was just one of the examples I could have pulled. There's plenty across all their mastheads that I could have used. It shows that New Limited push an agenda and shape news stories to suit their agenda. If you read the pieces in depth and pull out facts, and analyse them yourself, you can probably get a more realistic account. But News Limited are banking on people reading their pieces and believing verbatim their spin on the facts and what they mean. For those that dont read more than the headlines and the first paragraph, they manipulate those so that their agenda is pushed.

This isn't any revelation. It's a well known fact across the media and while they may deny it, they dont hide from it.

But hey, if News Limited is your preferred source of information to build your opinions, that's cool. There are plenty in Australia that do. But don't take offence if others laugh off facts, figures, or opinions that come from News Limited. Personally I've read enough of their pieces to know that they'll always push their agenda when they can.
No I don’t rely on any one source for information. I think it’s easy to see the bias in any form of media.
But it’s the nonchalant dismissal of any information from any journalist, article or source if it’s in any Murdoch media.
Whether it’s factual or not.

But that’s up to other people’s decision to let their bias keep their head in the sand rather to read, listen and make their own mind up.
 
No I don’t rely on any one source for information. I think it’s easy to see the bias in any form of media.
But it’s the nonchalant dismissal of any information from any journalist, article or source if it’s in any Murdoch media.
Whether it’s factual or not.

But that’s up to other people’s decision to let their bias keep their head in the sand rather to read, listen and make their own mind up.

That's cool. If you find yourself agreeing with the News Limited take on things then your agendas and beliefs align, which is cool. It's probably why you don't think News Limited are constantly driving an agenda when they have the opportunity.

Interesting there's been no comment on the chart I posted above from you. Do you think headlines and graphics like that are fair and balanced? Or have a place in Australian Media?
 
That's cool. If you find yourself agreeing with the News Limited take on things then your agendas and beliefs align, which is cool. It's probably why you don't think News Limited are constantly driving an agenda when they have the opportunity.

Interesting there's been no comment on the chart I posted above from you. Do you think headlines and graphics like that are fair and balanced? Or have a place in Australian Media?
No, what I said was I don't rely on any one source for information.
I can determine if there is bias, or if in doubt use other sources to confirm facts.

No I don’t believe that image is fair or balanced. Surely you don’t give enough credit to other readers or viewers.

It seems arrogant that the group think brigade here that decry Murdoch media (and others?) can see it but others are too dumb to be able to differentiate.
It must be all the RWNJ’s that hold a monopoly on that.
Meanwhile the LWNJ’s are more prescient, I guess.

But that’s the difference with having free will and a free mind. You don’t worry about having to tow another’s persons line to fit in.
Individuality versus group think. Neither is always right. But I’d rather be curious and find out for myself using multiple source rather than rely on who is on the “approved group think list”.
But that’s an individual’s prerogative

*edit* I’ve probably wandered off topic a bit. Time to get the compass out again
 
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So, we just screw up the climate do we?

There is no alternative, we have to stop using fossil fuels. We are already seeing the impact of climate change.

Nuclear? What a stupid suggestion. Apart from the fact that the so-called small reactors do not exist, conventional nuclear reactors will give us power for, maybe, decades. According to the nuclear lobby there is about 100 years of fuel for nuclear reactors at current usage levels. Double the usage and we get 50 years of energy. All this and it comes with 250,000 years of toxic radioactive waste which, after 70 years of the nuclear industry, there is still no safe way to dispose of the waste. Stupid suggestion and won't happen in Australia anyway.

The solutions are things like wind, which blows at night, solar collecting, which work overnight and other power sources such as hydro, including pumped hydro and tidal power. We need, and we can, improve technologies.

Storing electricity is extraordinarily difficult, we do need to find better ways, and we need to be sorting this now.

Plus, we need to be far more efficient with power use.

This is not a choice, we cannot continue to stuff up the climate.

Such a pity that the right wingers and fossil fuel lobby have been holding back action on this for decades, now we have so much less time to make changes. We have wasted way too much time, we need to get going now.

DS
Simple solutions, drop and hold the world population back to about half a billion at most or learn how to live in caves n chase possums with a pointy stick, preferably whilst bare arsed. Anything else is just pie in the sky fantasy.
 
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