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Coronavirus

On the case of Indonesia, which is a country I know well, as I frequently remind you all :cool: The story that the government authorised Ivermectin use for the public to treat Covid is just plain wrong. I'm going to show off my rudimentary Indonesian now to emphasise the point - the Badan Pengawas Obat dan Makanan BPOM (Food and Drug Authorisation Body) gave permission for Ivermectin to be used in clinical/observational trials in 8 hospitals in Jakarta. There was excitement and confusion, as often happens with government announcements in Indonesia and the idea got out that Ivermectin was now "approved". The head of PBOM clarified this two days later. It's not, but trials will done.

In the meantime trialsitenews, zerohedge, desertreview etc had picked up the story and it's still in circulation today. It's false. So the fall in case numbers is due to other factors.

thediplomat.com

An Anti-Expertise, Anti-Science Attitude is Undermining Indonesia’s Pandemic Response

The Indonesian government needs to jettison its hopes of a miracle cure to COVID-19, and listen to the advice of epidemiologists and health experts.
thediplomat.com

There are similar stories circulating about Japan using Ivermectin. These are more extreme - "Japan stops vaccinating completely and starts wholescale Ivermectin treatment". Again, false.

apnews.com

Japan has not substituted ivermectin for COVID-19 vaccines

An article published this week by a conservative radio host recirculated a months old false claim that Japan has halted the use of coronavirus vaccines in favor of using the parasite drug ivermectin, and that the switch has led to the eradication of coronavirus cases.
apnews.com apnews.com

Don't trust APnews? In the pocket of big Pharma maybe? OK, here's the list of approved Covid medications and vaccines from the Japanese Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices Agency.

PMDA’s Efforts to Combat COVID-19 (As of May 8, 2023) | Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices Agency

PMDA,pmda
www.pmda.go.jp

The most recent drug approved is Sotrovimab in Sept 2021 - Ivermectin ain't on the list.

Do you ever get the feeling that trialsitenews, desertreview and zerohedge might not be the most fair and impartial sources of Covid news?
 
Final comment on this topic for now, and Lamb and I have a truce and will be nice to each other given the loss of our dear friend from PRE.

I can accept that people can be fooled and even propagate Covid19 disinformation innocently - they believe it to be true. Dr John Campbell who is articulate and intelligent, and has medical research training, must know that he's manipulating the real situation and the science. He's doing it to boost numbers to his YouTube channel and gain a certain notoriety, I guess.

That kind of person has my utter contempt.
 
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AngryAnt said:
There is a lot of evidence through excess death numbers that the numbers of Covid deaths were under-reported an order of magnitude in Uttar Pradesh. Health Nerd on Twitter already did a full analysis of the numbers which showed it peaked and was falling even before the so-called Ivermectin intervention, again probably due the disease already being endemic. Vaccination rates then consolidated these gains.

Lamb, I'm not sure I've seen anywhere that states that low cases rates must correlate with high vaccination rates. We saw that lockdowns in Australia pre-vaccine produced low case rates, at least prior to delta, so this seems like a strawman argument to me.
Click to expand...
You can clearly see by excess death numbers vs acknowledged deaths with COVID19 which countries are under-quoting deaths and frankly it comes as no surprise, the larger populations are countries like Russia, Mexico, Poland, Egypt, Philippines, Thailand, even US ( China, India, Indonesia not available)

Let's not forget these numbers are under strict worldwide lock-down or restrictions. The death toll under no restrictions would have been horrific. Very hard to realistically argue but I know someone will.
 
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mrposhman said:
The problem is Lamby, is you spout those 2 countries but have no actual evidence of WHY they are so low. From memory Utter Pradesh was initially one of the states that was totally overrun by Covid, so potentially the low case numbers now are all due to natural immunity setting in rather than anything to do with Ivermectin but you continue to spout Ivermectin despite there being zero actual evidence (only anecdotal) that it "may" have had an impact.

You don't know and neither does anyone else why Utter Pradesh has low numbers, just most are willing to wait for actual evidence based conclusions to be made, whilst others (the minority) want to jump on any solution as a "miracle cure".
Click to expand...
Did you read my post. Stop your stupid strawman arguments. Gee it's tiring, The FACT is they are low and the FACT is they were low with very low vaccination rates. The point I am making is simply that there and in many other countries (as my attachment shows) the data REFUTES the MYTH that cases can be lowered only with HIGH vaccination rates. FACT!!

There was NO mention of Ivermectin in my post. You have Ivermectin on the brain!!
 
lamb22 said:
Did you read my post. Stop your stupid strawman arguments. Gee it's tiring, The FACT is they are low and the FACT is they were low with very low vaccination rates. The point I am making is simply that there and in many other countries (as my attachment shows) the data REFUTES the MYTH that cases can be lowered only with HIGH vaccination rates. FACT!!

There was NO mention of Ivermectin in my post. You have Ivermectin on the brain!!
Click to expand...
So what was your implication around why Utter Pradesh is so low?

Is it to do with their use of Ivermectin or are you of the belief we just let it run rampant (they did, not through strategy) and various studies have come out saying that excess deaths indicate the death toll was 8-10 times higher than reported.

Yes cases are low now, but you'd think that if its run through the community once, its likely killed those that it was expected to kill and natural immunities are impacting upon transmission. I remember reading somewhere, that they tested residents of Utter Pradesh and 97% of those residents had covid antibodies despite the low vaccination rates, indicating how widespread the initial wave was.

We all know what your underlying implied indications are from your post.
 
lamb22 said:
Sorry Roar, but if your comprehension is poor it's not my fault or problem. Your view of the world is so dangerous and its why we have this modern inclination towards censorship. We're not allowed to talk about things because someone may get upset or misconstrue the message, Give me a *smile* break.

I've often shown the charts on Uttar Pradesh and Indonesia not to demonstrate correlation but to disprove a COVID myth. One that says you cant have low case numbers without high vaccination rates. In fact we are fed that myth on a daily basis by the media. You can in fact have low covid cases per head of population with lower vaccination rates. That is actually a demonstrable fact and If you have a problem with truth because it might encourage anti vaxxers and want to quash it you have a very dangerous philosophy indeed.

Here's some more uncomfortable facts for you.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Click to expand...

Those facts aren’t uncomfortable at all. They are meaningless and if you understood statistics you would be embarrassed to share that link as uncomfortable. We already did this one.

I make a point that sharing correlations as causations is dangerous and to make your point you share with me that cases and vaccination aren’t correlated.

I’ll spell it out. If a and b are correlated then it doesn’t mean that a causes b (or b causes a). If a and b AREN’T correlated it doesn’t mean that a DOESN’T cause b either.

So the point you’ve made clear to me is you like meaningless positive and negative correlations and you don’t care if they get used to sell a message when portrayed as causal links or in the example above to say that they aren’t linked.

You are the one with the dangerous philosophy.

You also don’t mind cherry picking data where the quality is more likely very poor. Even excess deaths in India are likely to be undercounted. To think a low income country would have the money to test enough of the population to make the numbers comparable shows a willingness to ignore reality or to be generous even think about it.

The stat you should be looking at is what percentage of fully vaccinated people who get Covid get seriously ill vs those who get Covid and aren’t fully vaccinated . And compare in similarly aged people. If you do that you can drop all this other guff.
 
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I know it’s the Guardian but here will be the next freedom protest for the right to kill yourself by choosing what does or doesn’t go into your body and burdening the health system

www.theguardian.com

Australian governments urged to set a date to ban cigarette retail sales

Public health experts liken phasing out tobacco retailing to removing asbestos and lead paint from the market
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

While they are at it the freedom fighters could lobby for the reintroduction of lead paint in children’s toys as their natural diet and immune system will obviously be strong enough to prevent the effects of lead poisoning.

Freedom to chose right?
 
RoarEmotion said:
I know it’s the Guardian but here will be the next freedom protest for the right to kill yourself by choosing what does or doesn’t go into your body and burdening the health system

www.theguardian.com

Australian governments urged to set a date to ban cigarette retail sales

Public health experts liken phasing out tobacco retailing to removing asbestos and lead paint from the market
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

While they are at it the freedom fighters could lobby for the reintroduction of lead paint in children’s toys as their natural diet and immune system will obviously be strong enough to prevent the effects of lead poisoning.

Freedom to chose right?
Click to expand...

blursed.jpeg
 
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Harry said:
So you can't back your claim. That's ok.

Cases in the mostly vaccinated countries like UK and in West Europe are still high. The good news is that hospitalisation and deaths are down which is a good result for the vax but transmission is still significant.
Click to expand...

That's a predictable move. You started with the claims but I'm the one that needs to come out with facts when I doubted your claims?

It's ok Harry, you're a long time conspiracy theorist so it's no surprise you've jumped onto this one as well.
 
Doctors and health experts have said on numerous occassions the fit and healthy and children are low risk to sevete effects of covid.

Also no surprise you've resorted to name calling and labelling.
 
Harry said:
Doctors and health experts have said on numerous occassions the fit and healthy and children are low risk to sevete effects of covid.

Also no surprise you've resorted to name calling and labelling.
Click to expand...

Your statement that transmission rates are high for vaccinated. Then you followed that the lack of elite athletes in ICU is little to do with their vaccination status. Now countered for facts you provide none at all.

Not name calling or labelling, just calling it as it is. Or do you dispute my assertion that you're a long time conspiracy theorist?
 
More bad news for Ivermectin promoters


www.mcgill.ca

The Ivermectin Train Cannot Stop

It started with a laboratory study on African green monkey kidney cells. While the dose used was much higher than what doctors would prescribe, the results were promising. Ivermectin could stop the new coronavirus from making copies of itself. This drug, ivermectin, has acquired political...
www.mcgill.ca
 
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AngryAnt said:
More bad news for Ivermectin promoters


www.mcgill.ca

The Ivermectin Train Cannot Stop

It started with a laboratory study on African green monkey kidney cells. While the dose used was much higher than what doctors would prescribe, the results were promising. Ivermectin could stop the new coronavirus from making copies of itself. This drug, ivermectin, has acquired political...
www.mcgill.ca
Click to expand...

I think the fact the Indian Government have removed Ivermectin from their COVID treatment guidelines because it was found to be ineffective is the most telling statement of them all

www.indiatoday.in

Why HCQ and Ivermectin were removed from India’s Covid-19 treatment protocol

Ivermectin and HCQ were dropped from the clinical guidance after studies found that these drugs have little to no effect on Covid-related mortality or clinical recovery of the patient.
www.indiatoday.in www.indiatoday.in
 
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